Why we cannot accept the Reformation!

Markwsmith2020 · Oct 13, 2017

Was there a reformation or were new churches started?

Where does Jesus Christ or the Bible EVER give anyone a right to start a church???

Jesus Christ and the Bible say
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, not luther, calvin or Henry the eighth!

Vicomte13 · Oct 13, 2017

Halbhh said:
My experience is that the Catholics I meet generally embrace me, and with love. Now, these are the people that are available to meet, of course, that is people that are friendly enough to meet in person. And they haven't treated me less good knowing I go to a different church.

---
(I don't think my particular label of church means anything, men's labels, errors, but error is part of human life, part of being human. I see us all as one together in Christ, and labels, names we dare to add to churches, can't block or alter that even slightly.)

Wait, you're NOT a Catholic???!!!

"We've found a witch, may we burn her!"

Phil 1:21 · Oct 13, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
Wait, you're NOT a Catholic???!!!

"We've found a witch, may we burn her!"

Yeshua HaDerekh · Oct 13, 2017

Markwsmith2020 said:
What was reformed? The church?

No reformation here in reality new churches were started!

The new churches are false churches with false doctrines be cause the Bible says so!

Jesus Christ and the Bible say
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, not luther, calvin or Henry the eighth!

One church: I will build my church, singular!
There's one church cos it's the kingdom of God, and there is one king and one kingdom!

Yeshua is the Rock the Church was built on. The other problem is YOUR church is in schism...so pot kettle

Yeshua HaDerekh · Oct 13, 2017

Markwsmith2020 said:
Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, when He said something it is God who said it, and He said thou art Peter and upon this rock I (Jesus Christ) will build My (one singular) church, and Peter received the keys of the kingdom, and the apostles united with Peter are given the authority and power to bind and loose, these can't be given to a confession as some say, but to persons!

Your problem is that maybe he was talking to Peter or maybe he was speaking to ALL the Apostles that were present. Because He did not ask only peter who he though He was. Peter made the declaration but upon this Rock could have meant his declaration (more likely than on Peter) and the keys were given to them all. You see Yeshua told a story of a house built on the Rock and one built on sand...and that was NOT regarding Peter.

Vicomte13 · Oct 13, 2017

JayW said:

She turned me into a newt!

Phil 1:21 · Oct 13, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
She turned me into a newt!

Vicomte13 · Oct 13, 2017

JayW said:

What else floats in water?

Phil 1:21 · Oct 13, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
What else floats in water?

PanDeVida · Oct 13, 2017

Halbhh said:
I don't accept the 'reformation' either as being the....final perfection, as being more than reforms in a moment in time. Reforms happen.

They should continue to happen, right? Indeed, the Church is continuing to renew, right?

When Peter was confronted face to face by Paul, and Paul wrote that Peter "stood condemned" (Galatians chapter 2, isn't it?)

That was not the end for Peter.

He had to reform. And he did reform.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Paul Rebukes Peter at Antioch
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

But in Acts later we see Peter clearly having reformed.

That's just another reformation. They happen over and over, right?

Hal, yes St. Paul, remonstrated St. Peter, and St. Peter, as you say "reformed," However, St. Peter, stood within the Church Founded on Rock. St. Peter, did not leave the Church founded on Rock like the Protestors / Protestants of today.

bbbbbbb · Oct 13, 2017

Markwsmith2020 said:
If you love the Truth ( and the truth is not something, it is somebody, I am the Truth) you will hate, yes hate falsehood, false teachers, and false doctrine!

Who is Truth? Are you?

Halbhh · Oct 13, 2017

PanDeVida said:
Hal, yes St. Paul, remonstrated St. Peter, and St. Peter, as you say "reformed," However, St. Peter, stood within the Church Founded on Rock. St. Peter, did not leave the Church founded on Rock like the Protestors / Protestants of today.

I do not claim to have much specific knowledge of events 500 years ago, just an overview, and a bit of historical video etc., and seeing some of the wiki description, but I understand that instead of Martin Luther leaving the Church, that instead what occurred is that he was excommunicated, an action done to him.

It may help to know that I don't look up to Luther in any special way, and happen to have been taught a number of his shortcomings, just coincidentally, and that was at an hour about Luther kind of teach in at a 'Lutheran' church, during which among other interesting things it was asserted that Luther would "blow a gasket" if he were alive today and saw his name in front of a church, etc. Just a bit of interesting anecdote of what I heard that day. Of course, there was more, about substantial errors, such as his 'anti-semitism' (or another claimed it was anger about Jews refusing to convert).

None of that is of great import to me. All people sin. I don't follow Luther in any way at all.

But....the wiki asserts that he was excommunicated.

That seems to suggest it wasn't him leaving, yes?

It doesn't come across well to say he left, not in any manner, if that wasn't him doing the action.

Vicomte13 · Oct 13, 2017

JayW said:

Lead! Churches! Very small rocks!

Gregory Thompson · Oct 13, 2017

Markwsmith2020 said:
What was reformed? The church?

No reformation here in reality new churches were started!

The new churches are false churches with false doctrines be cause the Bible says so!

Jesus Christ and the Bible say
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, not luther, calvin or Henry the eighth!

One church: I will build my church, singular!
There's one church cos it's the kingdom of God, and there is one king and one kingdom!

The church singular is the body of Christ, Christ has only one body!

1 Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Eph 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism

The new testament days 31 times "the faith" one faith we all have to believe! As in "I have kept the faith"
2 Tim 4:7

And "thee faith" is the faith of the apostles, this promise made to the apostles!
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
Matt 28 go into the whole world, teaching them...
Lk 10:16 he who hears you (the apostles) hears me!

The church is built on the apostles!

Eph 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets
luther, calvin, etc. Are NOT Apostles!

If you believe the Bible alone, where does the Bible say to have a reformation? Or camp meeting, or Sunday school, or a revival, or a revival in a tent?

Though I'm more into the second reformation, I find more agreement with Orthodox teaching than Catholic.

hedrick · Oct 13, 2017

Markwsmith2020 said:
Faith alone is not biblical!
You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the teaching of Jesus Christ!

The Reformers' doctrine is not salvation by faith, but justification by faith. Justification has a couple of meanings in Paul, either how we recognize that someone is Christ's or how God makes us his. Salvation, however, is the whole of God's work in restoring us. It is based on God's acceptance of us in justification, but its goal is for us to be like Christ.

Jesus teaches both. He teaches that God loves us and accepts us as his children without condition. Think of his many assurances of forgiveness, and of his parables about God reaching out to those who didn't merit it. But Jesus equally says that we are expected to obey and show fruit. That obedience isn't a precondition of God's love, but it's a necessary response, for which we'll be held accountable.

I'm not as familiar with Lutheran theology as with Calvin. In Calvin justification and sanctification (God's acceptance and our Christian life) are parallel consequences of faith. Salvation includes both, because our Christian life can only be based on our confidence that God loves and accepts us.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Oct 13, 2017

Because the reformers innovated so much and took it upon themselves to reconstruct what they thought was a "biblical" Christianity I cannot accept the reformation since at it's core it is a rejection of the historical church before it. That extends not only to Catholicism but also the other ancient Church of Orthodoxy which Protestantism largely ignored and dismissed (with the exception of one Lutheran/Orthodox dialogue).

I cannot accept the reformation's premise that each man is their own ultimate authority on the bible because that is not how Christianity works nor is how it remains a united entity (as Protestantism since the reformation has proved). The reformation simply went too far.

In rejecting tradition, Protestantism accepted innovation at every level and continues to do so to this day.

bbbbbbb · Oct 13, 2017

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Because the reformers innovated so much and took it upon themselves to reconstruct what they thought was a "biblical" Christianity I cannot accept the reformation since at it's core it is a rejection of the historical church before it. That extends not only to Catholicism but also the other ancient Church of Orthodoxy which Protestantism largely ignored and dismissed (with the exception of one Lutheran/Orthodox dialogue).

I cannot accept the reformation's premise that each man is their own ultimate authority on the bible because that is not how Christianity works nor is how it remains a united entity (as Protestantism since the reformation has proved). The reformation simply went too far.

In rejecting tradition, Protestantism accepted innovation at every level and continues to do so to this day.

What is your opinion regarding Augustine of Hippo?

DeaconDean · Oct 14, 2017

Vicomte13 said:
No, he DID found his Church on Peter, with all Peter's flaws.

And the Church flourished despite Peter and all of his flaws, and Paul and his, and all of since.

Yep the church did flourish in the years afterwards.

Persecution of the Donatists.

The Great Schism.

Persecution of anybody, including their own members.

Have you ever heard the saying: "Kill them all, let God separate them!"?

Do you honestly know who said it and what the original saying was?

And what church tried for 1300 years to keep the scriptures out of the peoples hands to manipulate the population?

I could say something, but before I get myself into trouble, I'll refrain.

And I'd love to go back pay "x" amount of money just to know that all my sins, past, present, and future, as well as guaranteed admittance to heaven could be bought.

Yea, it flourished alright.

God Bless

Till all are one.

JIMINZ · Oct 14, 2017

PanDeVida said:
Hal, yes St. Paul, remonstrated St. Peter, and St. Peter, as you say "reformed," However, St. Peter, stood within the Church Founded on Rock. St. Peter, did not leave the Church founded on Rock like the Protestors / Protestants of today.

.
The Protestants of today didn't leave anything.
Leo Excommunicated Luther rather than stop what he was doing.
Leo forced the issue, and the Protestant Reformation was born.

Glory be to the Father.

DeaconDean · Oct 14, 2017

JIMINZ said:
.
The Protestants of today didn't leave anything.
Leo Excommunicated Luther rather than stop what he was doing.
Leo forced the issue, and the Protestant Reformation was born.

Glory be to the Father.

You know, its really really funny that as recorded in Acts, from meeting in the upper room (Acts 2), to the gathering in Acts 6, to the first Apostolic Council in Acts 15.

Where did the church in Jerusalem come from?

Who built it?

And more importantly, who is the head cornerstone?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Why we cannot accept the Reformation!

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