Why we cannot accept the Reformation!

[Markwsmith2020]

What was reformed? The church?

No reformation here in reality new churches were started!

The new churches are false churches with false doctrines be cause the Bible says so!

Jesus Christ and the Bible say
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, not luther, calvin or Henry the eighth!

One church: I will build my church, singular!
There's one church cos it's the kingdom of God, and there is one king and one kingdom!

The church singular is the body of Christ, Christ has only one body!

1 Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Eph 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism

The new testament days 31 times "the faith" one faith we all have to believe! As in "I have kept the faith"
2 Tim 4:7

And "thee faith" is the faith of the apostles, this promise made to the apostles!
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
Matt 28 go into the whole world, teaching them...
Lk 10:16 he who hears you (the apostles) hears me!

The church is built on the apostles!

Eph 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets
luther, calvin, etc. Are NOT Apostles!

If you believe the Bible alone, where does the Bible say to have a reformation? Or camp meeting, or Sunday school, or a revival, or a revival in a tent?

 

[Halbhh]

I don't accept the 'reformation' either as being the....final perfection, as being more than reforms in a moment in time. Reforms happen.

They should continue to happen, right? Indeed, the Church is continuing to renew, right?

When Peter was confronted face to face by Paul, and Paul wrote that Peter "stood condemned" (Galatians chapter 2, isn't it?)

That was not the end for Peter.

He had to reform. And he did reform.

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
Paul Rebukes Peter at Antioch
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And with him the rest of the Jews acted insincerely, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their insincerity. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?”


But in Acts later we see Peter clearly having reformed.

That's just another reformation. They happen over and over, right?

 

[Living Soul]

What was reformed? The church?

No reformation here in reality new churches were started!

The new churches are false churches with false doctrines be cause the Bible says so!

Jesus Christ and the Bible say
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, not luther, calvin or Henry the eighth!

One church: I will build my church, singular!
There's one church cos it's the kingdom of God, and there is one king and one kingdom!

The church singular is the body of Christ, Christ has only one body!

1 Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Eph 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism

The new testament days 31 times "the faith" one faith we all have to believe! As in "I have kept the faith"
2 Tim 4:7

And "thee faith" is the faith of the apostles, this promise made to the apostles!
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
Matt 28 go into the whole world, teaching them...
Lk 10:16 he who hears you (the apostles) hears me!

The church is built on the apostles!

Eph 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets
luther, calvin, etc. Are NOT Apostles!

If you believe the Bible alone, where does the Bible say to have a reformation? Or camp meeting, or Sunday school, or a revival, or a revival in a tent?

I agree. A lot of church organizations alive today do not build on the foundations of the apostles and prophets. I'd be so bold to say that the past couple of Popes haven't done that either. The current Pope is using his station to further leftist political agendas almost daily. I know Catholic church-goers personally who believe in Darwinian evolution. Where are those teachings coming from?

Your relationship with Jesus Christ is personal and should motivate you to teach rather than tear down. The Holy Spirit should be motivating you to build people up, instead of brow-beating them with church labels.

I believe that without all of the legalism, rituals, and false requirements, the current day Catholic church might pass for a Protestant church....that is with a lot of stretching.

 

[RC1970]

Ecclesia semper reformans, semper reformanda!

Why?

Because:
"For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel." - Martin Luther

 

[faroukfarouk]

A key doctrine is justification. Protestants have in history strongly held that it is all of God's grace, not of works, whereby the believer is reckoned just in God's sight, as Romans and Galatians particularly teach.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Protestant Reformation did create a reaction in the Catholic Church known as the Counter-Reformation which found its source in the Council of Trent. At that Council there were several key reforms instituted in the Catholic Church in an effort to woo Protestants back into their fold. The Catholic Church has continued to react and reform since then with the most obvious recent effort being the Catholic Council known as Vatican II.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If you believe the Bible alone, where does the Bible say to have a reformation?

Yes, because it's not like Jesus ever rebuked religious authorities who went astray.

Or camp meeting, or Sunday school, or a revival, or a revival in a tent?

Nope, there's nothing in the Bible about coming together with other believers to praise, worship, and learn about God.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

It all hinges on how one defines the church...


Clement of Alexandria

"For it is not now the place, but the assemblage of the elect, that I call the Church." (The Stromata, 7:5)

Sounds a bit like Calvin to me what do you think?

Ecclesia semper reformans, semper reformanda!

In Him,

Bill

 

[JIMINZ]

What was reformed? The church?

No reformation here in reality new churches were started!

The new churches are false churches with false doctrines be cause the Bible says so!

Jesus Christ and the Bible say
Matt 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. Jesus Christ is the one who builds the church, not luther, calvin or Henry the eighth!

One church: I will build my church, singular!
There's one church cos it's the kingdom of God, and there is one king and one kingdom!

The church singular is the body of Christ, Christ has only one body!

1 Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Eph 4:5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism

The new testament days 31 times "the faith" one faith we all have to believe! As in "I have kept the faith"
2 Tim 4:7

And "thee faith" is the faith of the apostles, this promise made to the apostles!
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
Matt 28 go into the whole world, teaching them...
Lk 10:16 he who hears you (the apostles) hears me!

The church is built on the apostles!

Eph 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets
luther, calvin, etc. Are NOT Apostles!

If you believe the Bible alone, where does the Bible say to have a reformation? Or camp meeting, or Sunday school, or a revival, or a revival in a tent?

.
Such anger.

 

[JIMINZ]

I agree. A lot of church organizations alive today do not build on the foundations of the apostles and prophets. I'd be so bold to say that the past couple of Popes haven't done that either. The current Pope is using his station to further leftist political agendas almost daily. I know Catholic church-goers personally who believe in Darwinian evolution. Where are those teachings coming from?

Your relationship with Jesus Christ is personal and should motivate you to teach rather than tear down. The Holy Spirit should be motivating you to build people up, instead of brow-beating them with church labels.

I believe that without all of the legalism, rituals, and false requirements, the current day Catholic church might pass for a Protestant church....that is with a lot of stretching.

.
I do not agree, the foundation the Church is built on is Jesus Christ, not Peter or any of the Apostles or Prophets.

1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If Christ is the Foundation of any Protestant Denomination, then they are Christian.

 

[DeaconDean]

Good day,

It all hinges on how one defines the church...


Clement of Alexandria

"For it is not now the place, but the assemblage of the elect, that I call the Church." (The Stromata, 7:5)

Sounds a bit like Calvin to me what do you think?

Ecclesia semper reformans, semper reformanda!

In Him,

Bill

Amen!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Fact is, if Jesus really meant that He was going to build His "church" on Peter, then Jesus failed miserably.

We know for a fact that Peter sinned at least twice according to scripture. One occasion was when the sheet was let down. Peter disobeyed God deliberately. Not once. Not twice. But three times Peter disobeyed God.

Then we find out that Peter was again guilty of sinning because Paul said he guilty of being a hypocrite.

But here again, Paul wasn't much better. He disobeyed the Holy Spirit at least twice.

And Paul was also guilty of "reviling" the High Priest. One could make the argument that Paul committed this sin out of ignorance because Paul admitted that he didn't know the man was a "high priest". And even at that, according to the Old Testament Laws, there were provisions in the Law made for sins committed out of ignorance.

Fact is, even after the point of salvation, man is not perfect. And He never will be until the day we See Christ, and are made just like him.

We may give the impression that we look upright. We may give the impression that we walk upright. But in all things, in all areas, there is one place, one thing we'll never be that. James said the tongue s such a small member and yet lights a big fire. And that no man (or woman) can tame it.

And the fact is, even after the point of salvation, Peter and Paul were not "perfect"

Imperfection cannot make perfection.

So if Jesus was going to found His church on Peter, He failed miserably.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Living Soul]

.
1Co 3:11
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

An epistle written by the Apostle Paul.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life, when He said something it is God who said it, and He said thou art Peter and upon this rock I (Jesus Christ) will build My (one singular) church, and Peter received the keys of the kingdom, and the apostles united with Peter are given the authority and power to bind and loose, these can't be given to a confession as some say, but to persons!
John 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
How was Christ sent, with power and authority, and Peter and the apostles are sent with the same authority and power!

 

[Halbhh]

A key doctrine is justification. Protestants have in history strongly held that it is all of God's grace, not of works, whereby the believer is reckoned just in God's sight, as Romans and Galatians particularly teach.

It's good to know that Catholics seem to say (directly to me face to face in person I mean, but also in the catechism as best I understood the section on justification) that we are justified by grace through faith (to greatly shorten the wording), and then must do works, which is only merely the exact meaning in Ephesians 2:8-10. (but when people want to argue they can sometimes ignore this and talk past each using unfamiliar wordings all day long of course)

It's so pronounced in Galatians that sudden turn in chapter 5, starting at verse 13....and continuing, on and on, into chapter 6.

It starts like so --

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to...
[oh....hmmm...]
...indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love."

And that's only the start. Paul sounds like Peter, John, James, finally.

Paul does this over and over. Starts seeming to say just one thing....and it takes a long time until the other parts that belong with it arrive.

We are saved by grace because of our faith, not by our works, and....

...and...

....and we have to then do A, B, C, D, E, and not do X, Y, Z etc.

Over and over you see it in the epistles.

Just over and over. Right? If you don't, then read through fully and you will.

Paul lines right up with Peter, James, John, and our Lord.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

Faith alone is not biblical!
You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the teaching of Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ taught: Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

It can't be both!

You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the teaching of Paul!

Paul taught: 1 Cor 13 three things are eternal: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

If it was faith alone, the greatest would be faith! But the greatest is love!

3 things not faith alone!

You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the Bible!

The Bible teaches:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: not faith alone!

1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Not faith alone!

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us! Not faith alone!

Romans 13:11
For now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

This scripture makes no logical sense if you believe faith alone!

 

[Halbhh]

Faith alone is not biblical!
You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the teaching of Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ taught: Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,

It can't be both!

You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the teaching of Paul!

Paul taught: 1 Cor 13 three things are eternal: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

If it was faith alone, the greatest would be faith! But the greatest is love!

3 things not faith alone!

You CANNOT believe in salvation by faith alone and believe the Bible!

The Bible teaches:

Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: not faith alone!

1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. Not faith alone!

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us! Not faith alone!

Romans 13:11
For now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

This scripture makes no logical sense if you believe faith alone!

The many, many problems people have in modern times (even for hundreds of years now) understanding Paul comes of not reading fully through his epistles, from the first verse, all the way through, including all the words, without ignoring any verses, through to the last. If they would, then Paul's seeming contradictions to Christ, James, John, and Peter disappear.

 

[Markwsmith2020]

No just because Paul or the Bible teach faith, as in Heb 11:6 or John 3:16 does not mean faith alone, they are establishing sound doctrine must begin with faith! You still have Det. Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself which Christ affirmed!

 

[Halbhh]

No just because Paul or the Bible teach faith, as in Heb 11:6 or John 3:16 does not mean faith alone, they are establishing sound doctrine must begin with faith! You still have Det. Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself which Christ affirmed!

Paul is so wordy and lengthy often that we are forced to read fully through entire epistles completely, and then we finally see Paul fully lining up and totally agreeing with Christ (and James, and Peter, and John).

Paul is just convoluted at times too. Sometimes many chapters between the beginning of a topic, and the final completion of pieces that belong with it as one whole thing.

Ephesians chapter 2 is an exception to Paul's usual writing. Here he manages to complete the whole grace doctrine in 3 verses(!). Verses 8 through 10.

Notice that isn't just verse 8-9, as often quoted and not enough.

Usually though, in Paul's epistles, we cannot get his full message on something in just 3 verses or even just 15 (often), or even in a chapter.

Instead, often we are forced to read through the entire epistle in full, every verse, to finally get all the pieces that go together.

 

[Halbhh]

No just because Paul or the Bible teach faith, as in Heb 11:6 or John 3:16 does not mean faith alone, they are establishing sound doctrine must begin with faith! You still have Det. Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself which Christ affirmed!

That's exactly correct. It appears we are agreeing fully on that. For instance, see also post #15.