Why We Believe What We Do

[brotherjim]

Why We Believe What We Do?

In response to the preponderance of questions posted on the internet’s Christian forums, I was compelled by Love to compose a blanket response.

As I’ve come to feel led and do regarding many posts as of late, I will not return to this thread and answer any responses to my post. I’m merely wanting to throw out there what I believe was revealed to my understanding by the Lord as truth. If He bears witness to this in the heart/spirit of any person, or not, is not my concern - but His. Be very careful, however, because what I’m about to put forth will inherently [but not intentionally by me] challenge the heart idols of many people. Be prepared for the possibility many will lash out following this. For if true, it will expose and lay bear the heart’s unclean motives.

So that nobody feels played upon and led down a primrose path to a "death" of their categories, I will in all fairness state the premise right up front, and then explain how someone could arrive at this conclusion. This way, if any want to harden their heart and just erase this post from their conscious state, they can more easily do so. For, after all, if what I’m about to say is true, then few will have much to justifiably argue about afterward. THEN what will most of you spend your time doing?

I allege:

During this dispensation, I, not the necessarily the Lord, believe there will neither be a unity of belief concerning several doctrines - which I will name, nor does God will to state through His designated ones the truth regarding these tenets.

During this dispensation, there will continue to exist to the end, as purposefully designed by God, the opposing sides of doctrines such as:

1) Predestination vs. Free-will (i.e. Calvinism, Arminianism, Whateverism)

2) Eternal Security of the Believer vs. Conditional Security (i.e. "once saved always saved," or not.)

3) Charismatics vs. Cessationists vs. Evangelicals (i.e. Spiritual Gifts & Baptism of the Holy Ghost)

4) <No more are coming to mind, but I previously thought there were others.>

My substantiation:

First we must re-examine some misused passages:

" . . . God is not the author of confusion . . .."

If someone examines the Greek translated "confusion" in the KJV they will likely agree it should have been "tumultuousness." The Lord was speaking about church services, during which He disclaimed Himself as being behind any sort of disorder - specifically while prophetic messages were being voiced.

On the other hand, the church has traditionally and widely misapplied this verse to nearly everything. They erroneously claim that God would not want us, His children, to be in the dark concerning His truth. Incorrect.

"For now we see through a glass darkly . . . now I know [only] in part . . .."

This above is a timeless statement: it must be as true on the last day of this dispensation as it was the first.

"Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth. . . ."

Notice this doesn’t say the Holy Ghost will guide us into all OF THE truth, but rather WHATEVER DEGREE of truth He guides us into will be truth. It does not promise all of the answers, as many claim it to say. This would be inconsistent with the "know[ing] in part" referenced above, as well as the overall plan of God for this dispensation (which draws on references from throughout the Word).

Someone can easily see witness to all of this in the reality of our world and church, although a thorough study of the Word - without the influences of man drawing conclusions for you, based upon their own heart idol doctrines (let’s serve THE God and not our little gods of the heart) - is also called for here.

Take, for example, Sovereign Grace versus The Free-Will of Man.

First, we could ask ourselves, "Why do those on each of these opposing sides believe what they do? After all, both seem to have convincing arguments based upon the Bible. How can both be right? How can either or both be wrong? What could possibly be amiss in the heart of someone that would make them tend to believe one way or another? (For, after all, we should know that whenever the scriptures are bent from their upright and truthful position, it was nearly certain the one perverting it had something unclean within their heart and therefor life, for which they needed to justify/validate with "proof" from God’s Word.)

Rather than answer any of the above questions directly, so as to not overly offend someone believing whichever side they do, we can entertain possible scenarios.

What COULD happen in the heart of someone who believes in Sovereign Grace? (I’ll do the same role play with the opposing doctrine to this next.)

Well, what happened to the first of those who were "God’s chosen people"? Are they not, as a race, the most arrogant people someone could encounter? This is not a judgment or racism whatsoever: it is a fact of life even a Jew would admit to if they were willing. I know, because this was made known to me by a Messianic Jew himself - Art Katz <benisrael.org>. Even their extra-biblical writings attest to this, them believing a non-Jew is a brute beast meant only for the slaughter (my words). And we who are Gentile by race would have to admit, if we looked unbiasedly at the Hebraic lineage, they are the most articulated and successful and overall accomplished people in the world (truly they were blessed of God).

All of this is only natural, for both the Jewish people and the Calvinist. Unless the Lord specifically and supernaturally delivers us, such belief of being "chosen" will naturally lead to being puffed up with pride.

Now, suppose before someone is faced with the knowledge and choosing of this doctrine, they ALREADY have arrogance/pride within their heart (which ALL Christians do). Can you see how easily such a belief of Sovereign Grace would greatly appeal to and be embraced by their impure heart?

So could someone then conclude that those who oppose elective grace/predestination have more pure hearts and also the truth on this doctrine? No.

Why would someone choose the doctrine of Free-Will? Let’s again entertain a possibility.

Suppose someone’s heart still held rebellious iniquity. They maybe came to realize a person needed to be born-again in order to not face the reality of their soul being destroyed in hell, but they were perhaps never willing to repent of the rebellion which keeps man from submitting to God. After all, everyone would prefer to be their own boss, given the choice. No one would favor submission to God if it wasn’t required (". . . there is none that [voluntarily] seeks after God.").

So now a rebellious person is born-again, but never really repented from their rebellion. It could have been adultery or stealing or some substance abuse or any one of a number of other things which drove them to the cross and resulted in their conversion. Then they come across this doctrine of Free-Will? Do you see how much this would appeal to the still-rebellious heart? It would be music to their ears. Oh how enjoyable, and self-justifiable, would be this doctrine to the heart idol of rebellion.

In summary, then, using just this one example of opposing doctrines, we can easily see how likely it is the vast majority of both sides have - and in some cases adamantly - taken onto themselves and embraced that which they have.

So how does all of this substantiate the fact the church will never have the entire truth until either the Great Tribulation or Millennial (depending upon YOUR doctrinal pet peeve) begins?

How much more filled with pride would the Calvinist be if no opposition to their doctrine existed, and if ALL were Calvinists?

How much more rebellious would the Arminian be if no opposition to their doctrine existed, and if ALL were Arminians?

This same litmus test can be applied to any other set of opposing doctrines.

I hope and pray the Lord will open the eyes of your understanding, grant wisdom from above, and bear witness to either the truth or the error of that which is stated here. May He richly bless you with every spiritual blessing He has willed and in store for you in the Heavenlies. To The Heavenly Father, His Son Christ Jesus, and the Holy Ghost be all glory and power and praise forever and ever, world without end. Amen.

Copyright 2002 by brother jim - may be freely shared without permission if this notice is included.

<brotherjim@mail.com>

 

[Stormy]

Very interesting.

 

[brotherjim]

Oops - sorry!

It was brought to my attention off-line that my usage of 1Cor.13:12, "seeing through a glass darkly," in the original post here, would not be acceptable by some. Being a charismatic myself (and an anabaptist and a fundamentalist and a-), it never occurred to me that many non-charismatics believe that passage only applied to the early church. No problem. There are numerous other scriptures someone can use to form a belief that the Lord does not reveal all of the truth to anyone in this dispensation. But rather than list those here - which anyone can search for with a concordance and perhaps a chain-ref. Bible, or, better yet, by reading the entire NT again - it seems better to me to just spell out the underlying theme of the original post, just in case some missed it.

We should all deeply wonder as to how Lucifer became the fallen Satan. Was He not given godly wisdom and knowledge far greater than we could expect was given to man? And yet he could not see the work of pride and its resultant arrogance in his own life. I guess what is true of man is also of angels: unless the Lord specifically and divinely reveals those unseen impurities within the heart, a.k.a. little gods or heart idols or still-hidden sins, etc., then the beings of His creation don’t have a clue as to their existence (actually there are clues, but we deny them), and are therefor bound to act them out.

So the underlying theme here is the destructive force of pride. We are all guilty. It is pride whereby God must allow being hung in the balance, those doctrines which oppose each other from one group to another.

In fact, seeing as how I’ve revealed myself a charismatic, please allow me to make example of all this by picking on my own "kinfolk."

It’s obvious the charismatic "movement" has taken a nose-dive the last couple decades - at least here in the Western world. An no wonder. Consider how we flaunted our alleged extra blessing and condemned those without, and continue to try and shove it down their throats with every opportunity. But the Baptism of the Holy Ghost was not intended for what we’ve made it. It’s for both increased personal edification - in the hope we would become more like Christ, and for ministering to others in power. Reality tells us little of the former exists, and the latter has grown quite dim and rare and often feigned.

So if this is true of the charismatic, and we exist balanced out with great witness of opposition in the true church, just how much more puffed up with ourselves would the charismatic become, and how much more abusing and grieving to the Holy Ghost with whom we claim greater intimacy?

"But Jesus did not commit Himself onto [MAN], because He knew all MEN, and needed not that any should testify of MAN: for He knew what was in MAN."

 

[Anthony]

Why We Believe What We Do?

For most people; they believe what they have been spoon fed from the pulpit, and only those parts that make sense, regardless of whether they are biblical or not. The average Christian doesn't read the Bible or the footnotes, let alone do any of his own research. They rely on nice sounding people to tell them what the Bible is saying, and then simply go about their lives.

 

[brotherjim]

Dear Brother Anthony,

Sadly, true.

Let's help them to change.

jim

 

Stormy,

So are YOU.

jim

 

Anyone,

I'll be tied-up for some time. Sorry.

 

[Homie]

The average Christian doesn't read the Bible or the footnotes

I beg to differ, I can not say for certain but I assume most christians read the Bible regularly.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Homie
I beg to differ, I can not say for certain but I assume most christians read the Bible regularly.

Homie

I would say many read the bible, those active working Christians. But half of them don't read the bible on a regular basis. Also many Christian turn to other books which tell them what the bible says, rather than reading the Bible for themselves.

In the survey, conducted by The Barna Group, 80 percent of respondents said they consider the Bible to be the most influential book in human history. More than 90 percent of households surveyed own a Bible, and three out of four own more than one.

But 19 percent of those surveyed said they never read it, and 26 percent said they rarely read it.

http://www.texnews.com/1998/religion/bible0117.html

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

1) Predestination vs. Free-will (i.e. Calvinism, Arminianism, Whateverism)

Both are true, actually. God sees through all the ages, and can move about them freely.  God grants grace so we can act better than we would normally, and at the same time, wants us to choose Him or not.

2) Eternal Security of the Believer vs. Conditional Security (i.e. "once saved always saved," or not.)

Once you are saved, you are always saved, that is true. But you arent saved until you die and are judged.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

Originally posted by s0uljah

Once you are saved, you are always saved, that is true. But you arent saved until you die and are judged. [/B]

Actually, if you are saved you never die And I think the saying should be changed to Once TRULY saved always saved. Many make the claim to be a Christian, but unfortunately I think God's definition is much much different than ours.

FOMWatts<><

 

[brotherjim]

sOoljah & FOMWatts,

Thanks for helping to prove my point.

The intention of the thread, however, was not to make avaiable an avenue for someone's posting of their personal dogma (better explained on the charismamag.com forum - click on Letters to the Editor; click on Was Jesus God topic).

Actually, we need merely turn to Romans Chapter 11 to see and know we could all wake up any given morning to find the entire New Testament church has been wiped out. Prophecy never guarantees its end.

 

[reeann]

I think, to grow as a Christian, you have to do the following:
1. Repent.. daily check your heart for sin
2. Seek God's guidance through the reading of His Word
3. Write your own gospel..God wants your life to be a living witness
4. Commune with other Christians. We are but one part of the body..we need each other to grow
5. Love - unconditionally

 

[brotherjim]

Dearest reeann,

You said:

I think, to grow as a Christian, you have to do the following:
1. Repent.. daily check your heart for sin
---------------
Two things come to mind. If we are dealing with the outward sins of the flesh or the inward sins we are consciously aware, the checking must be instantaneous. if we are walking in the Spirit as commanded, we will be instantly aware of the sin and desire to instantly repent. Conversely, if those two things are NOT instantly happening, we can rightly question whether or not we are walking in [intimate union with] the Spirit.

Second, if you were referring to the hidden sins of the heart, such can only be known upon a divine revelation from heaven. This may take days or weeks or months of prayer, until we have convinced heaven, and ourselves, that we really want to know what's in there. Also, because when something of this nature, when finally revealed, is so utterly devastating to our good opinion of ourselves, and these sins are soooo ugly when seen through God's eye (which is what is shared in the "revelation") , it might take a long time for God to prepare us so we will not be toooooooo devastated. Concentrating on the 200+ references in the Word attesting to who we are in Christ Jesus, is an excellent preparation for us finding out who we really still are apart from Him.

Everyone: Selah (or, meditate upon each aspect of that).

You said:

2) Seek God's guidance through the reading of His Word
----------------

Yes and no.

We are to seek God's guidance by learning the voice of the S(s)pirit and obeying that voice (or sincerely repenting if we disobey).

Many in the world don't have the written Word.

Many in the early church didn't have any written Word (and we should do as well if we reach a point of only a fraction of their anointing).

God is not bound by printed words on a piece of man-made paper.

Christ Jesus is the LIVING Word. And He can tach it in the Spirit realm, and does so to either those without a Bible or thos with but who pray in the Spirit and wait upon Him to unfold its Truth.

What the Bible IS good for, is as a time saver and error saver. We can compare either what we believe the Spirit has told us, or what comes through the prophetic writings and speakings of man, against the written Word. If the revelation cannot be proven wrong by scripture . . .

Some say we may not have the written Word available forever. Those who have obtained an hidden it in their hearts will do best if that is true, and will also do best even if it is not.

And, after all, is the written Word as it exists infallible? Don't misunderstand me - I'm a fundamentalist at heart, but we don't have the manuscripts that were the first editions, do we? (Actually, i don't know not being a scholar, or even whether or not through science if we could know). Some muslims say our Bible was tainted by it being changed from what was first penned by the Apostles. While I also seriously doubt this - as I'm sure all are likewise screaming right now, we are to be dependent upon God's Spirit and the Words of His He makes alive in our heart.

I know that I know I am a child of God, because His Spirit bears witness with my spirit - and that's the only proof we get. So even if the Bible was shown to be in error, or even if it did not even exist, man cannot take from me the assurance of the witness within me.

You said:

3. Write your own gospel..God wants your life to be a living witness
4. Commune with other Christians. We are but one part of the body..we need each other to grow
5. Love - unconditionally
------------
AMEN!

Love you sis, your brother, jim

 

[kern]

Originally posted by brotherjim

The intention of the thread, however, was not to make avaiable an avenue for someone's posting of their personal dogma (

s0uljah was posting the view of the Catholic church, not his personal dogma.

-Chris

 

[brotherjim]

Originally posted by kern
s0uljah was posting the view of the Catholic church, not his personal dogma.

-Chris

kern,

Moot point.

My point was that the thread was, I believe,&nbsp;intended to show the motivations of man for creating ANY doctrine: i.e. it wasn't about doctrines, but about MAN.

 

[KeepTheFaith15]

why we believe what we do? well i got one thing to say and it's off of an applejacks commercial. "because we just do!" heehee

 

[webboffin]

We believe what we do because we are self searching in ourselves for the truth which unlike non deity believers look in others for the truth.