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Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

Zoii

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Well said. I think this is the whole debate in a nutshell.
I would never agree that people should give up bodily autonomy because the government feels it needs to mandate vaccines for the betterment of society.
Some have said this is equivalent to "setting my child on fire to keep yours warm."
I believe that is why the topic gets so heated.
Educating the masses on the value of vaccination is the key. Mandating vaccines is only going to continue fanning the flame of anti-vaccination. Perhaps, if we are content to educate, the flames will die out.
No one can deny that there are risks and side effects, and we can argue all day how common or rare those risks are but the point is, there are some.
Parents should be the ones to decide for their children.
Once we are adults, we should make that choice ourselves.
Your problem is Jules, that there are too many within the anti-vax cohort who either deliberately or unwittingly take no responsibility for their freedom of choice by entering the community at a time when they have communicable diseases. Those same people infect those who are vulnerable and continue to propagate those agents of infection. If you hold to the autonomy youre suggesting, then you should also be advocating for greater education of your cohort to isolate themselves at a time they are infective. But as you can see by other anti-vaxers here eg ananda, they state that regardless of the virulence of ones infection, noone can refuse you the right to go out into the community.
 
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Liza B.

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I am, in the same sense that you give up bodily autonomy when you aren't allowed to drive drunk because it endangers yourself and others -_-.

Stopped right there. That's not "bodily autonomy". That's not having something injected into you, against your will, at gov't fiat. That's simply not being allowed to operate a motor vehicle when you're intoxicated.

I do not understand how you could think that's bodily autonomy, to be honest. Bodily autonomy is: I have a right to have my body intact, as it is, without government interference. It is not: my body has the right to do whatever it wants, such as grab a machete and hack at another. Or drive a car intoxicated.
 
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Jules43

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Your problem is Jules, that there are too many within the anti-vax cohort who either deliberately or unwittingly take no responsibility for their freedom of choice by entering the community at a time when they have communicable diseases.

I disagree with this presumption. Studies that I have read about non vaccinating people state that these people overall are highly educated and weathly. I do not believe that they would be careless and enter the community with a communicable disease anymore than anyone else would.

Edit because of using my cell phone.
 
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Jules43

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they state that regardless of the virulence of ones infection, noone can refuse you the right to go out into the community.

I haven't read that person's post saying they can go into the community when they are knowingly contagious. That is certainly irresponsible.
However, people knowingly go out into the community with a cold and/or flu and don't seem to care so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I feel like that is because places of employment make it difficult for people to take too many sick days.
 
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Jules43

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Someone asked a while back for studies showing that vaccines shed. I don't have time to follow this whole thread, but I can share these.

Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child.

Measles vaccine is widely used, most often in association with mumps and rubella vaccines. We report here the case of a child presenting with fever 8 days after vaccination with a measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. Measles virus was isolated in a throat swab taken 4 days after fever onset. This virus was then further genetically characterised as a vaccine-type virus. Fever occurring subsequent to measles vaccination is related to the replication of the live attenuated vaccine virus. In the case presented here, the vaccine virus was isolated in the throat, showing that subcutaneous injection of an attenuated measles strain can result in respiratory excretion of this virus.

Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child. - PubMed - NCBI


Detection of fecal shedding of rotavirus vaccine in infants following their first dose of pentavalent rotavirus vaccine.

Studies on rotavirus vaccine shedding and its potential transmission within households including immunocompromised individuals are needed to better define the potential risks and benefits of vaccination. We examined fecal shedding of pentavalent rotavirus vaccine (RV5) for 9 days following the first dose of vaccine in infants between 6 and 12 weeks of age. Rotavirus antigen was detected by enzyme immunoassay (EIA), and vaccine-type rotavirus was identified by nucleotide sequencing based on genetic relatedness to the RV5 VP6 gene. Stool from 22 (21.4%) of 103 children contained rotavirus antigen-positive specimens on ≥ 1 post-vaccination days. Rotavirus antigen was detected as early as post-vaccination day 3 and as late as day 9, with peak numbers of shedding on post-vaccination days 6 through 8. Vaccine-type rotavirus was detected in all 50 antigen-positive specimens and 8 of 8 antigen-negative specimens. Nine (75%) of 12 EIA-positive and 1 EIA-negative samples tested culture-positive for vaccine-type rotavirus. Fecal shedding of rotavirus vaccine virus after the first dose of RV5 occurred over a wide range of post-vaccination days not previously studied. These findings will help better define the potential for horizontal transmission of vaccine virus among immunocompromised household contacts of vaccinated infants for future studies.

Detection of fecal shedding of rotavirus vaccine in infants following their first dose of pentavalent rotavirus vaccine. - PubMed - NCBI


Chickenpox attributable to a vaccine virus contracted from a vaccinee with zoster.

“Five months after 2 siblings were immunized with varicella vaccine, 1 developed zoster. Two weeks later the second sibling got a mild case of chicken pox. Virus isolated from the latter was found to be vaccine type. Thus, the vaccine strain was transmitted from the vaccinee with zoster to his sibling. Vaccinees who later develop zoster must be considered contagious.”

Chickenpox attributable to a vaccine virus contracted from a vaccinee with zoster. - PubMed - NCBI


Differentiating the wild from the attenuated during a measles outbreak.

“In the midst of a local measles outbreak, a recently immunized child was investigated for a new-onset measles-type rash. Nucleic acid testing identified that a vaccine-type measles virus was being shed in the urine.”

Differentiating the wild from the attenuated during a measles outbreak. - PubMed - NCBI


Effect of immunization against rubella on lactation products. I. Development and characterization of specific immunologic reactivity in breast milk.

“Over 69% of the women shed virus in milk after immunization.”

Effect of immunization against rubella on lactation products. I. Development and characterization of specific immunologic reactivity in breast milk. - PubMed - NCBI


Estimation of polio infection prevalence from environmental surveillance data. 2017

“By measuring virus shed into sewage waste in cities in which a known number of people received a live polio vaccine, the authors created tools that can be used to monitor polio incidence in other cities. Thus, virus levels in sewage waste can give an early warning of the reappearance of viral disease or verify its absence.”

“Data from the intersecting population between the two data sets (covering more than 63,000 people) yielded a dose-dependent relationship between the number of poliovirus shedders and the amount of poliovirus in sewage.
Copyright © 2017, American Association for the Advancement of Science.”

Estimation of polio infection prevalence from environmental surveillance data. - PubMed - NCBI


H2N2 live attenuated influenza vaccine is safe and immunogenic for healthy adult volunteers.

“It was shed by 78.6% and 74.1% volunteers after the first and second dose, respectively, most probably due to the human origin of the virus.”

H2N2 live attenuated influenza vaccine is safe and immunogenic for healthy adult volunteers. - PubMed - NCBI

So yes, vaccines do shed and when you also take into account that some are not designed to prevent transmission of the virus or bacteria, then it becomes apparent that they are not AS effective as the media makes them out to be.

Many more here: Shedding | Med Science Research

I look forward to finding time to read these studies. Thank you for taking the time to post them.
 
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Zoii

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I disagree with this presumption. Studies that I have read about non vaccinating people state that these people overall are highly educated and weathly. I do not believe that they would be careless and enter the community with a communicable disease anymore than anyone else would.

Edit because of using my cell phone.
Jules you have members on this and similar threads who state categorically they would. You also have ant vax members here who have unwittingly infected others. Now... would you support a child care centre who said if your child has any infection it will not be admitted and would you accept a civil suit against you if your child, unkown to you was incubating chicken pox and passed it on to children who through pathology was unable to vaccinate
 
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I disagree with this presumption. Studies that I have read about non vaccinating people state that these people overall are highly educated and weathly. I do not believe that they would be careless and enter the community with a communicable disease anymore than anyone else would.

Edit because of using my cell phone.

Folks who are highly educated & wealthy also tend to be a whole lot more arrogant & full of themselves. A lot of them are more content to trust what their other highly educated & wealthy pals have said on Facebook than to listen to folks actually educated on vaccines. Highly educated & rich folks have been careless about countless things countless times. I don't know why on earth you'd think that them being educated & wealthy would mean that they couldn't be clueless & careless about vaccines.
 
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Strathos

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Stopped right there. That's not "bodily autonomy". That's not having something injected into you, against your will, at gov't fiat. That's simply not being allowed to operate a motor vehicle when you're intoxicated.

I do not understand how you could think that's bodily autonomy, to be honest. Bodily autonomy is: I have a right to have my body intact, as it is, without government interference. It is not: my body has the right to do whatever it wants, such as grab a machete and hack at another. Or drive a car intoxicated.

What about someone who wants to snort heroin? Does that fall under bodily autonomy?
 
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dgiharris

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Folks who are highly educated & wealthy also tend to be a whole lot more arrogant & full of themselves. A lot of them are more content to trust what their other highly educated & wealthy pals have said on Facebook than to listen to folks actually educated on vaccines. Highly educated & rich folks have been careless about countless things countless times. I don't know why on earth you'd think that them being educated & wealthy would mean that they couldn't be clueless & careless about vaccines.

I used to work in a R&D lab and then later went on to work for a high tech semiconductor company.

Needless to say most of my professional life I've been surrounded by highly educated and wealthy people...

And not one of them have ever been an anti-vaxxer.

Occassionally the topic would come up in the office when it made the news and we'd all laugh and wonder how in this day and age of science and technology that there are those that actually believe that vaccines are unnecessary and a hoax?

I will admit that this post is just my anecdotal data from my personal experiences, but whatever there it is...
 
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Hank77

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Someone asked a while back for studies showing that vaccines shed. I don't have time to follow this whole thread, but I can share these.

Welcome. Gracious, there's a lot of new folks joining this week. On account of you being new, you're probably not aware that posts here are supposed to mainly be in your own words. Now you're welcome to post things from other places, but only 20% of your post is supposed to be material that isn't yours.


Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child.

Measles vaccine is widely used, most often in association with mumps and rubella vaccines. We report here the case of a child presenting with fever 8 days after vaccination with a measles-mumps-rubella vaccine. Measles virus was isolated in a throat swab taken 4 days after fever onset. This virus was then further genetically characterised as a vaccine-type virus. Fever occurring subsequent to measles vaccination is related to the replication of the live attenuated vaccine virus. In the case presented here, the vaccine virus was isolated in the throat, showing that subcutaneous injection of an attenuated measles strain can result in respiratory excretion of this virus.

Detection of measles vaccine in the throat of a vaccinated child. - PubMed - NCBI

Well as it says right there in the 1st sentence, the measles vaccine is widely used. In the 2nd sentence it says, we report here the case of A child. As in one child. Out of the millions around the globe they're presenting the case of 1 child. This is 16 years old. The study looks to be all of a paragraph long. I looked on the site for the rest of it, didn't see it.

Detection of fecal shedding of rotavirus vaccine in infants following their first dose of pentavalent rotavirus vaccine.

Studies on rotavirus vaccine shedding and its potential transmission within households including immunocompromised individuals are needed to better define the potential risks and benefits of vaccination. We examined fecal shedding of pentavalent rotavirus vaccine (RV5) for 9 days following the first dose of vaccine in infants between 6 and 12 weeks of age. Rotavirus antigen was detected by enzyme immunoassay (EIA), and vaccine-type rotavirus was identified by nucleotide sequencing based on genetic relatedness to the RV5 VP6 gene. Stool from 22 (21.4%) of 103 children contained rotavirus antigen-positive specimens on ≥ 1 post-vaccination days. Rotavirus antigen was detected as early as post-vaccination day 3 and as late as day 9, with peak numbers of shedding on post-vaccination days 6 through 8. Vaccine-type rotavirus was detected in all 50 antigen-positive specimens and 8 of 8 antigen-negative specimens. Nine (75%) of 12 EIA-positive and 1 EIA-negative samples tested culture-positive for vaccine-type rotavirus. Fecal shedding of rotavirus vaccine virus after the first dose of RV5 occurred over a wide range of post-vaccination days not previously studied. These findings will help better define the potential for horizontal transmission of vaccine virus among immunocompromised household contacts of vaccinated infants for future studies.

Detection of fecal shedding of rotavirus vaccine in infants following their first dose of pentavalent rotavirus vaccine. - PubMed - NCBI

@PsychoSarah did a great job discussing this in post 495. It's specific about the RV5 type of the rotavirus & with immunocompromised folks changing the diapers of babies who've just gotten it. Most folks already use sanitary measures when changing poop-filled diapers, surely ones who are immunocompromised would. It doesn't say anything about the other type of rotavirus vaccine "shedding" & causing problems



Chickenpox attributable to a vaccine virus contracted from a vaccinee with zoster.

“Five months after 2 siblings were immunized with varicella vaccine, 1 developed zoster. Two weeks later the second sibling got a mild case of chicken pox. Virus isolated from the latter was found to be vaccine type. Thus, the vaccine strain was transmitted from the vaccinee with zoster to his sibling. Vaccinees who later develop zoster must be considered contagious.”

Chickenpox attributable to a vaccine virus contracted from a vaccinee with zoster. - PubMed - NCBI

As with your 1st study, this one is nearly 20 years old. Just like with the MMR vaccine there's been millions of kids around the world who've gotten the varicella vaccine. This is talking about 2 kids in 1999.

Differentiating the wild from the attenuated during a measles outbreak.

“In the midst of a local measles outbreak, a recently immunized child was investigated for a new-onset measles-type rash. Nucleic acid testing identified that a vaccine-type measles virus was being shed in the urine.”

Differentiating the wild from the attenuated during a measles outbreak. - PubMed - NCBI


The child tested positive for Strep & had a small rash, but on account of folks traveling & importing back measles there'd been a worry he'd contracted measles from them. Nucleic acid testing was used to differentiate between wild strains like what caused the outbreak that caused the extra vigilance, and the attenuated strain. The real lesson to be learned is that folks need to be sure they're vaccinated before they travel. It's about how folks went traveling, imported back measles. Caused the city of 3.5 million folks to have to worry about it. That's why the doctor & poor family were panicked.



Effect of immunization against rubella on lactation products. I. Development and characterization of specific immunologic reactivity in breast milk.

“Over 69% of the women shed virus in milk after immunization.”

Effect of immunization against rubella on lactation products. I. Development and characterization of specific immunologic reactivity in breast milk. - PubMed - NCBI

Oh now for the love of all things good & holy. This is from 1982! 1982.


So yes, vaccines do shed and when you also take into account that some are not designed to prevent transmission of the virus or bacteria, then it becomes apparent that they are not AS effective as the media makes them out to be.

Many more here: Shedding | Med Science Research

Well, from the studies you've posted you've shown us that worrying about shedding is about as rational as refusing to step outside of your house on account of fearing being struck by lightening. No matter what the weather is. You've picked studies that are more than 30 years old, that are 20 years old & involved a single child.

That last link explains it all. An anti-vaccination site cherry picked studies for their site & you've just posted them here.
 
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Zoii

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.People are posting here yelling how shedding is causing outbreaks. There seems to be a basic misunderstanding of what an attentuated virus is. Yes the recipient may develop symptoms, usually malaise and sometimes fever. Whats occurring is the triggering of the immune response resulting in IgM and IgG (immediate and long-term immunity). Can you get the disease from said virus - YES and NO - For the first few days those vaccines using live attenuated viruses will shed and yes it is possible though unusual for the recipient to transmit the attenuated virus. There are four such vaccines (Different Types of Vaccines | History of Vaccines) with 11 recorded cases out of the 50 million vaccinations for chicken pox, resulting in transmission symptoms in the unvaccinated person.

So you catch the disease then from the vaccinated person then??? - No. Remember the virus is attenuated so yes it may cause some immune response symptoms eg fever. You do not get the full-blown disease. This is very unusual and its incredibly irresponsible to suggest it is more than attenuation transmision and that its rare.
 
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Liza B.

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What about someone who wants to snort heroin? Does that fall under bodily autonomy?

A case for bodily autonomy can be made when it comes to illegal drugs, I will grant you that. However, it's not at all the same as the gov't injecting YOU with substances against your will.
 
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Vaccines, of course, are beneficial on the individual level, since they reduce the risk of contracting illness and make it such that even if a person does, the experience isn't as severe.

However, not everyone can get vaccinated even if the injections are available. These include but are not limited to: very young babies, people allergic to components of vaccines, and people with certain disorders that impair the immune system. These people must rely upon herd immunity in order to avoid contracting various viral illnesses. But, herd immunity only works if enough people are vaccinated. Now, if every person that could be vaccinated was, herd immunity would be maintained quite well, and outbreaks of diseases such as measles and chicken pox would become exceedingly rare. Heck, when was the last time the US had an outbreak of polio?

Unfortunately, scare tactics and misinformation has resulted in many people choosing not only to not vaccinate themselves, but their children as well. As a result, outbreaks of diseases such as whooping cough have become more common, and it is the weakest and most vulnerable of us that end up paying the price.

I'd have no issue with people opting out of vaccines if that decision only impacted them individually. The fact of the matter is, anyone that chooses to not get vaccinated increases the risk of people that can't get vaccines (even if they want to) getting sick and dying.

"But Sarah, vaccines are full of toxins and cause autism and-"
They don't, and I am going to go through every single anti-vax claim I can think of.

1. Vaccines contain mercury: Vaccines used to contain a harmless mercury compound (just think about chemistry for two seconds; chlorine gas is extremely toxic, and elemental sodium reacts violently with water, but the table salt that is made of both elements combined is actually essential for people and only bad if they consume it in excess), but thanks to the outrage people showed at it being there, vaccines that used to contain it now come in variants that don't. Plus, tons of vaccines never had that compound to begin with, such as the chickenpox vaccine. In case anyone cares about some of the details, the compound is thimerosal, and it was there to help prevent the growth of any harmful microbes in the vaccine. In any case, you'd actually get more mercury from eating tuna regularly than from keeping up with vaccines, and that mercury actually is in a harmful form.
2. Vaccines cause autism: One guy lied in a study in the 1990s. That's it. Dozens of experiments have been performed and have found no link between autism and vaccines. However, many of the diseases people are vaccinated against can have the rare effect of causing lasting brain damage, and polio typically damages the nervous system severely. So, if a person doesn't want "damaged" children, the vaccines are the safer bet.
3. Vaccines contain formaldehyde, and that's a carcinogen: They actually do... as does human blood normally... and pears. The amount of formaldehyde in vaccines is trivial compared to the amount normally in human blood to begin with. That is, there isn't enough in vaccines for even a lifetime of vaccinations to make a difference.
4. This image
antivax_postcard.jpg

Oh dear, where to begin. I guess I'll address them in order of that list, minus autism because I've already addressed it. Shaken baby syndrome is the result of physical damage to a baby's brain due to the brain hitting the sides of the skull. There's no way a vaccine could do that, that's like saying a vaccine could cause your leg to break. Chronic ear infections are usually caused by bacteria, and are common in babies and young children due to the shape of a young person's ear canal and the fact that their immune systems are not done developing. Again, no means by which a vaccine could cause this. Far more kids would die from the diseases that vaccines prevent than die from the rare complications. SIDS is a term for when babies under a year old die with no detectable cause, and thus cannot be attributed to vaccines. It is notable that people that are poor tend to experience SIDS more, meaning that the people that experience it the most are people that get less vaccines, not more of them. Seizures are interesting when it comes to vaccines. There are only a few that actually have this as a potential side effect at all, and notably, the flu vaccine is not one of them. However, it is worth noting that kids that have a history of seizures in their family are more prone to this side effect, and it is more common if you get all of the ones that have this side effect at the same time, or get them along with the flu shot. So, this is a decent reason not to get your child vaccinated for, say, the mumps, if you have a family history of seizures, and you should avoid having your kid get multiple vaccines with this side effect at the same time. Here's this for anyone that want's to avoid doubling or up on seizure risks Vaccines: Vac-Gen/Side Effects
ADD, Asthma, Diabetes, and Meningitis are the same as Autism, there isn't any evidence that vaccines cause these or make them worse. As for allergies, allergic reactions to vaccines are rare, and it wouldn't make any sense for vaccines to cause allergies to chemicals they don't contain. Polio is not caused by vaccines, and the disease predates them. In fact, a severe polio outbreak in the US was only stopped thanks to a vaccine for it being produced. The only reason this isn't still a common disease in that country is due to vaccines, and I challenge any anti-vax person to actually find a reasonable explanation for the reduction in the frequency of diseases for which there are vaccines that doesn't attribute it to the vaccines.
5. Aluminum in vaccines: again, you'll eat way more of the stuff than a vaccine will give you, and the compound of aluminum in vaccines is mostly excreted by the body within just a day.
6. Too many vaccines is just as bad as too many antibiotics: Not at all. Antibiotics themselves kill bacteria, and when they are used too much or improperly, this gives rise to strains which are resistant to the antibiotic, making said antibiotic become useless. The same doesn't apply to vaccines, which actually stimulate the immune system to be able to handle the disease better on its own rather than the vaccine directly killing the virus itself. This is also why vaccines are useless to people that have already contracted the disease the vaccine helps with; it takes 2 weeks for a vaccine to get your body effectively prepared to fight of a disease, so if you contract it before then, the vaccine is of no use. So, feel free not to get the vaccine if you already have a fever and aching joints, and don't feel like you are absolutely safe to just hang out with sick people right after you get a vaccine. Furthermore, vaccines don't outright prevent disease. They make it so that when you catch it, your body fights it off very efficiently, resulting in severely reduced symptoms. "But Sarah, what about the rabies vaccine, then? You only get that after you have been exposed to the virus". Rabies is an interesting disease. It actually progresses so slowly that, if you, say, get a bite on your finger, the virus isn't going to reach the central nervous system and really wreak havoc for weeks. This actually gives the vaccine enough time to be effective even after initial exposure. This is also why people are encouraged to get the vaccine as quickly as possible, and why it is so many shots at once.

Unfortunately, vaccines for bacterial diseases are generally ineffective, and they make future diagnosis of any additional infections result in false positives for that disease, which is why there are very few vaccines for bacterial diseases.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

Hi, there is a $100,000.00 reward for anyone that can prove vaccines are safe. I think you should get ahold of them and inbox me when you get the 100k, i will be very impressed.

Robert De Niro, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. offer $100K to anyone who can provide proof vaccines are safe
 
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dgiharris

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Hi, there is a $100,000.00 reward for anyone that can prove vaccines are safe. I think you should get ahold of them and inbox me when you get the 100k, i will be very impressed.

Robert De Niro, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. offer $100K to anyone who can provide proof vaccines are safe
I am at a lost as to how to explain a scientific study to someone who doesn't understand science.

We will go down the rabbit hole of what exactly is "Safe".

I have a drug XYZ that is used to treat ailment Q. Q is a contagious disease that spreads causing serious illness requiring hospitalization to 15% of the population and kills 5% of the population.

The drug successful halts the ailment in 90% of those that use it but doesn't do anything for the remaining 10%. 1% of the population has an allergic reaction and out of that 1%, 1% die. So this drug will kill 100 out of 1,000,000 but without the drug, 50,000 people out of 1,000,000 will die.

So, is this drug safe?

Lets say that it is possible to test for allergies and that the test is 99% accurate. So then now the drug will kill 1 out of 1,000,000 but without the drug 50,000 people out of 1,000,000 will die.

Is the drug safe now?

In any event, this type of bet is an exercise in futility. Both sides in this bet need to be able to speak the same language and agree on standard definitions of what is "Safe" and I just don't see that happening with a layman who is convinced vaccines are bad.

This is kinda a Catch-22.

In order to understand what "safe" is, they need a basic understanding of science
If they had a basic understanding of science, then they wouldn't be anti-vaxxers.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Most definitely. I would not send my child to daycare if he or she showed any signs of infection.

There are two issues:
1. A person can be incubating a virus before exhibiting any symptoms of it. The time between infection and signs of illness, or the incubation period, is about three to five days for most viral diseases.

This is why measles is such an enormous challenge to contain; it's exceptionally contagious, and it's clandestine at first. The incubation period proceeds the rash and onset of other symptoms, so a child harboring the virus can feel and look vibrant and ready to take on the day at school; an adult can set about their ordinary routine of going from home to work (possibly taking mass transit), interacting with their colleagues, going grocery shopping, taking kids to practices and playdates. All while oblivious they're contagious.

In 2005 a 17-year-old unvaccinated girl inadvertently created the largest documented outbreak of measles in the United States since 1996 after contracting the disease while in Romania over the summer, and then attending a gathering with more than 500 people the day after her return. She wasn't setting out to be the Typhoid Mary of her generation; she was probably feeling like a jet-lagged version of her typical self and eager to be reunited with her friends and share about her experiences abroad. At her age her parents probably would have entrusted her to decide whether she felt like going to such an event, and there wouldn't have been any perceptible reason to abstain from it. The majority of attendees aged 5 to 19 at the gathering were homeschooled and unvaccinated; Although containment measures began after 20 persons were already infectious, measles remained confined mostly to children whose parents had refused to have them vaccinated, due to fears of adverse reactions. High vaccination levels in the surrounding area and low rates of vaccine failure averted an epidemic. (And in case anyone is wondering whether vaccine "shedding" could be responsible, everyone diagnosed with measles in that outbreak was tested, and the virus strain was genotype D4, which is endemic in Romania. And in case the followup to that is whether the measles vaccine provides protection for that strain, the answer is yes.)

In 2015 I was personally impacted by the Disneyland measles outbreak, as were many of my friends and members of my community. An unvaccinated little girl at my dance studio was diagnosed with the measles, and her mom said she'd been cheerful and energetic as typical in the days prior to any noticeable signs of having the disease. Her parents certainly wouldn't have sent their child to school or to dance classes that day had she shown any signs. High schoolers attended school as normal without realizing that they also had the measles. My boyfriend's baseball coach was unaware he'd caught them.

2. Though you wouldn't send your child to daycare if he or she showed any sign of infection, other parents don't have the benefit of that choice. Many working parents would struggle to secure last-minute childcare, and not be able to take any time off to stay home. One of the reasons Mississippi does not permit any non-medical exemptions to vaccination requirements for school attendance is because of this.
 
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Yanni depp

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I am at a lost as to how to explain a scientific study to someone who doesn't understand science.

We will go down the rabbit hole of what exactly is "Safe".

I have a drug XYZ that is used to treat ailment Q. Q is a contagious disease that spreads causing serious illness requiring hospitalization to 15% of the population and kills 5% of the population.

The drug successful halts the ailment in 90% of those that use it but doesn't do anything for the remaining 10%. 1% of the population has an allergic reaction and out of that 1%, 1% die. So this drug will kill 100 out of 1,000,000 but without the drug, 50,000 people out of 1,000,000 will die.

So, is this drug safe?

Lets say that it is possible to test for allergies and that the test is 99% accurate. So then now the drug will kill 1 out of 1,000,000 but without the drug 50,000 people out of 1,000,000 will die.

Is the drug safe now?

In any event, this type of bet is an exercise in futility. Both sides in this bet need to be able to speak the same language and agree on standard definitions of what is "Safe" and I just don't see that happening with a layman who is convinced vaccines are bad.

This is kinda a Catch-22.

In order to understand what "safe" is, they need a basic understanding of science
If they had a basic understanding of science, then they wouldn't be anti-vaxxers.
You seem very intelligent. Maybe you can make these dummies understand. Get the 100k and let me know when you do.
 
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