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Why Vaccinations Shouldn't be Optional

PsychoSarah

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A case for bodily autonomy can be made when it comes to illegal drugs, I will grant you that. However, it's not at all the same as the gov't injecting YOU with substances against your will.
It is things like this that make me recommend motions that don't outright require that everyone that can get vaccines does, but rather ensure that a high enough percentage of the population does to maintain herd immunity. By requiring that children get vaccinated to attend school (a requirement most schools have already), and by having all organizations with X number of employees require said employees to get vaccinated, that should get the number of vaccinated at least close to what is necessary for herd immunity.

-_- also, there are tons of substances you are exposed to as a consequence of government activities, regardless as to what country you live in. Heck, if your country has a draft, you could end up being ripped from your home and forced to die for your country against your will, or suffer the legal consequences of being a draft dodger. And you're complaining about the prospect of mandatory vaccination?
 
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PsychoSarah

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There are two issues:
1. A person can be incubating a virus before exhibiting any symptoms of it. The time between infection and signs of illness, or the incubation period, is about three to five days for most viral diseases.
I felt like listing some incubation periods for some of the common viruses there are vaccinations against:
Polio: 7-21 days (highly variable), with most cases being asymptomatic even in children (about 72%). A person is contagious usually 7-10 days before the onset of symptoms, and they continue to shed virus in their stool for 3-6 weeks.
Rubella: 12-23 days, symptoms may not even be apparent in adults and are often very mild in adults, and a person is contagious 1 week before symptom onset.
Chickenpox: usually 10-21 days, and the disease is at its most contagious in the two days before symptoms show.
Mumps: usually 16-18 days, and one is contagious for about a week before symptoms begin.
Measles: usually 10-12 days, and a person is contagious about 4 days before the rash appears but people are most contagious while they have the rash.
Influenza: usually 1-4 days, and one is contagious the day prior to symptoms showing.


I think you are looking at the wrong age group for this problem entirely. As a college student, I had professors that would not allow test rescheduling no matter how sick you were. I once had to be dragged into the lecture hall by my fiancé to take a test because I was so sick and hadn't gotten any sleep thanks to bouts of throwing up (rotavirus, holy crap, it felt like my stomach and intestines were trying to leave my body like a xenomorph). It was either go take the test on the given date, or accept a 0 on 25% of the points for the whole class. I've seen peers come in with mono and the flu multiple times, and even the students that do take a day off only take 1 because they can't afford to miss any more, meaning that they are still coming in very infectious. College level is also usually the start of people having to make their own appointments, so that even people that would get vaccines often neglect to, and the stress in combination with generally poor eating habits doesn't help.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Note that healthcare providers and the military are two large groups not only required to get vaccines, but often getting a wider variety of them; why would any government allow its military to be crippled by unsafe vaccines? Why would the people that know the most about vaccines subject themselves to more of them than the average person if they suspected that they were unsafe?

Also, proof is a math thing, so both of those people can just ignore evidence and never pay out the money because we can't be certain that anything is 100% safe and one cannot demonstrate that anything is safe in the same way that I can demonstrate that 2+2=4. Satisfying the arbitrary standard of evidence for two individuals that have nothing to do with healthcare shouldn't mean anything to you or anyone else.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Describe your symptoms in as great of detail as possible.
 
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Liza B.

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You can be a conscientious objector to the draft, to vaccines in school and the workplace. I don't know your nationality but believe me, America is not built on the premise that the government should inject you with substances against your will so that you can participate in society.

And I say this as an advocate for most vaccines.
 
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PsychoSarah

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You can be a conscientious objector to the draft, to vaccines in school and the workplace.
You can object to the draft, but if you are drafted, you cannot choose not to be without legal consequences. You can object to the vaccination requirement at a school, but if your kid isn't vaccinated, they ain't attending. You can object to vaccinations in the workplace, but you might have to find new employment.

I don't know your nationality but believe me, America is not built on the premise that the government should inject you with substances against your will so that you can participate in society.
Lol, vaccinations didn't even exist when the United States became a country, this is a nonsense statement on all levels.

Also, you say that as if there haven't been a ton of instances when the US government exposed non-consenting citizens to a variety of chemicals, some of which were known to be toxic. Just look up the mind control stuff from the 1950s, that stuff is just nutty!


And I say this as an advocate for most vaccines.
Can you think of a single logical argument against requiring people to be vaccinated using vaccines that have been demonstrated to be safe for decades? Freedom of choice isn't much of an argument when the nature of laws themselves always limits choices.
 
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dgiharris

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You seem very intelligent. Maybe you can make these dummies understand. Get the 100k and let me know when you do.

You can't win a bet of persuasion with someone who is both the escrow holder and the person requiring the persuasion especially when said person is also the arbitrator on what the definitions of the items being argued. In this case, the word "safe".

Now, if the bet was "Convince a panel of Harvard Professors and Doctors" that Vaccinations are safer for you than NOT getting the vaccination then I would do that bet in a heart beat.

However, trying to persuade an ignorant person when said person is both the escrow holder and arbitrator is a fool's errand.
 
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Liza B.

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You absolutely can choose not to be vaccinated and still attend public schools. In many states all you need is a waiver.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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Thank you for providing this information to the discussion.


The issue, as I discussed in my previous post and is presented more in depth in the one above, is that people can go out in the community contagious without knowing they are. It's because of this fact that I view vaccination as a civic duty. It's a part of good citizenship on par with paying your taxes, which is something no one takes pleasure in doing but is a necessity that benefits society on the individual and collective level. Unless there's a genuine, diagnosed medical condition that precludes vaccination, I view failing to do so to be as irresponsible as going out / send your children out into the community knowing you / they are contagious.



The reason my post was focused on young children is because the person I was quoting was specifically discussing parents keeping their kids at home when they are exhibiting symptoms of a contagious illness. Though some college students are parents, the majority are not. And though some college students are minors young enough to necessitate parental supervision, they're even more exceptional. I apologize if it was construed as though I was only disregarding other demographics.

I'm a college student too, and absolutely agree with what you've written. One of the reasons most colleges have strict policies regarding vaccination is because students are more susceptible to contracting and spreading the diseases vaccines provide protection for. It's important at all colleges and universities, but even more imperative on ones where the majority of students live on campus. It's why my college has a strict vaccination policy, and anyone wishing for a non-medical exemption must complete a detailed form articulating their reasons and present it to a board. I've been told that in the past 25 years only two people have ever been granted the exemption. We have a very low admission rate, so if someone is too arrogant and self-important to be a considerate member of the community, there are many on the waiting list who will happily take their place. Attending college is not a right but a privilege, and one that should not be abused. Of course the college is aware that vaccines are not infallible and there's still a possibility that someone who is vaccinated can contract the disease, but with the majority of the population protected, it substantially reduces the risk of an outbreak.

Becoming sick as a college student definitely can be a conundrum, just as you wrote. Unfortunately there are students who feign illnesses to delay taking finals they're not prepared for, or skip a class that has mandatory attendance, so many schools have strict policies. At my school students are asked to go to the student health center if they are ill, and if they're contagious accommodations are made. There are dorm rooms where students can be sequestered, and if they're well enough to take finals or midterms arrangements are made for them to do so in a room separated from the rest of the class. Deadline extensions and make-up exams are given only with documentation from a doctor.

I am actually taking make-up finals tomorrow because I was hospitalized last week when they were administered. I have Addison's disease (caused by chickenpox-induced sepsis when I was an infant fragile from being born prematurely) and my body does not produce the hormones that are imperative for coping with any form of stress, physical, mental, or emotional. I have to take synthetic steroids, but the medicine can generate a host of other issues, such as severe stomach pain. I often get sick near finals and other stressful times.
 
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Yanni depp

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im not sure why anyone should trust what the gov't has to say.....

Also, proof is a math thing
Only mathematics can be proven?


both of those people can just ignore evidence
So when you procure information it is evidence, and when someone that opposes your views procures information it is ignorance?

we can't be certain that anything is 100% safe.
thats an interesting statement
 
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Yanni depp

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I just figured if you were willing to insult their intelligence with comments like these.
I am at a lost as to how to explain a scientific study to someone who doesn't understand science.
In order to understand what "safe" is, they need a basic understanding of science. If they had a basic understanding of science, then they wouldn't be anti-vaxxers.
Then you could educate them with observable data, like you said, you know, Give them a "basic understanding of science."


a layman who is convinced vaccines are bad.
how do you know theyre convinced? Some people maintain a level of skepticism regardless of where they stand.
 
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Jules43

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Can you think of a single logical argument against requiring people to be vaccinated using vaccines that have been demonstrated to be safe for decades?

I think you answered your own question.

we can't be certain that anything is 100% safe and one cannot demonstrate that anything is safe in the same way that I can demonstrate that 2+2=4.
 
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Jules43

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Interesting. So any student attending Stanford, regardless of the program, must be fully vaccinated? Is it like that at every college and university in the United States?

This is not so for students in Canada unless their specific area of study requires it. For example:
Students in any health science or related field are required to be vaccinated or provide proof of immunity. They do have the option of submitting a medical or philosophical exemption but may not be able to complete their field placement.
 
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Jules43

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I have to disagree with you. I do not see vaccination as a civic duty, and certainly not on par with paying your taxes. The two cannot be compared at all.

vaccines are not infallible and there's still a possibility that someone who is vaccinated can contract the disease

I agree with this statement.

I did vaccinate my children because I made an informed choice, and I was comfortable that the benefits outweighed the risks. That was my choice. Who am I to make that decision for someone else?
It would be arrogant of me to force that belief on someone else.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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I have to disagree with you. I do not see vaccination as a civic duty, and certainly not on par with paying your taxes. The two cannot be compared at all.

The Australian government effectively did make the comparison by tying tax benefits to immunizations because, it was extremely concerned at the risk non-vaccinated children pose to public health. Their "No Jab, No Pay" policy requires children under 20 to obtain all relevant vaccinations under their National Immunization Program for parents to receive up to $11,000 in child care benefits, including the Australian Child Care Benefit, the Child Care Rebate and the Family Tax Benefit Part A. Parents are required to report immunizations to the Australian Childhood Immunization Register. While medical and religious exemptions are permissible, parents can no longer conscientiously object on non-medical grounds.


http://www.immunise.health.gov.au/i...257F110017177E/$File/No-Jab-No-Pay-FSheet.pdf



I agree with this statement.

I did vaccinate my children because I made an informed choice, and I was comfortable that the benefits outweighed the risks. That was my choice. Who am I to make that decision for someone else?

I am glad you vaccinated your children, for their benefit and all those who interact with them. We do not live in hermetic environments, and the choices we make in regards to communicable diseases do not only impact ourselves. This is why countries around the world throughout history have implemented policies to encourage vaccination; mandate it as a condition for social benefits such as attending school or holding certain positions; and even legally obligate it.

France to make vaccination mandatory from 2018 as it is 'unacceptable children are still dying of measles'
Move follows similar initiative in Italy, where non-vaccinated children cannot attend state schools


I'm not a proponent of compulsory vaccination unless the circumstances are so dire it's an imperative, but am a proponent of mandatory vaccination as a condition for social benefits since the decision impacts society. Freedom of choice should entail accepting responsibility for that choice.

And I'm glad you bolded the I to make it vividly clear that you were speaking for yourself and not on behalf of anyone else. You made an informed choice. Other parents who've declined to vaccinate their children have expressly stated they regretted that choice, and that they had made it based on misinformation, or a lack of complete information. The parents of a child in Spain who died from diphtheria and sparked a public health scare involving all children he'd interacted with (who thankfully had been vaccinated, but had to be carefully monitored) stated they felt cheated and destroyed by false information disseminated online by anti-vaxxers.

The mom of the school-aged boy I contracted chickenpox from as an infant too young to be vaccinated myself did not make an informed choice about her decision. She'd been struggling with debilitating depression, and chose to not vaccinate her son simply because it distressed and exhausted her too much when he cried receiving shots. The vaccine had been readily available for several years by that point, and the public had been implored to utilize it because of an outbreak at a local camp for HIV positive kids. The majority of other states already required the varicella vaccine for school enrollment, but Ohio didn't yet. She lied to her husband about it, so he wasn't empowered to make an informed choice, either. He was furious with her, and even though my family did forgive her, she struggled to forgive herself. My family wasn't enabled to make an informed choice about me being exposed to him while he was contagious. We were visiting my grandparents who lived on a huge farm, but their house was on the backline of the property beside a subdivision where the boy's family lived. He was my older brother's friend. His mom fell asleep with him while he was napping, and when he woke up he came over to play and show off this mask that altered your voice when you spoke through it. His chickenpox was not immediately apparent, so there was no reason to be concerned. We have pictures of him holding me up in front of a mirror wearing the mask and laughing. It was entirely innocent, and yet the moment that altered my life. Chickenpox is usually a temporary torment for kids, but it can be devastating to babies and immunocompromised individuals. I was an immunocompromised baby because I'd been born extremely prematurely and with complications. My prognosis was bleak when I was born, but by the time my family was cleared for us to visit my grandparents months later, I was stable. But still fragile. The chickenpox caused sepsis (a complication that is rare, but has killed two children in recent years) that destroyed my endocrine system and caused Addison's disease, and damaged my stomach so severely surgery was required. My parents have spent a fortune on my medical bills over the years, and the emotional toll cannot be calculated by any monetary figure. Every day of my life will forever be impacted by a choice neither they nor I had any choice about. And the mom of the boy has actually said she wished she hadn't had a choice, and that if it had been required for school she would have agreed to it without hesitation.

In a Zulu settlement of South Africa last year one family sparked a measles outbreak, and I wouldn't characterize their choice to refuse vaccination that was offered to them as informed. They'd made the decision based on online anti-vaccine lobbying that, along with giving false medical advice culled from American sites, told them their ancestors would be displeased by the vaccination. In that area, ancestor worship is common.

Some people simply aren't informed about specific vaccines until they try to enroll their children or themselves in school or college and discover it's a requirement. I don't view those who are unaware of vaccinations or not adequately informed about them as morally culpable for consequences. The mom of an inspirational 22-year-old "beauty guru" on YouTube named Kaitlyn Dobrow who had all four of her limbs amputated due to meningococcal disease as a teen stated that she had "absolutely no idea" how serious it could be, and had she known, both of her kids would have been vaccinated the minute they heard the vaccine was available. Her daughter was already contagious before any of them were aware she had this potentially deadly disease. When she first exhibited symptoms, they thought she had a cold. The family is now dedicated to promoting awareness of the vaccine.

Kyla Winters, another young woman from Southern California, is also a passionate advocate for vaccination because she lost both of her legs due to meningitis. She's expressed that she was overwhelmed with grief when she realized there was a vaccine available for the strain she had. The mother of a teenager who died of meningitis B in 2013 before the vaccine for that strain was available in the United States has traveled around the country on a mission to make other families aware of the vaccine.

It would be arrogant of me to force that belief on someone else.

Those who choose not to vaccinate themselves or their children are forcing their belief on someone else.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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There's an important legal and ethical distinction between compulsory vaccination, in which people who refuse are forcibly vaccinated, and mandatory vaccination, in which people who refuse are denied social privileges. In the United States the former has rarely ever occurred. The latter has been upheld by the United States Supreme Court for more than a century (Jacobson v. Massachusetts; Zucht v. King) and laws mandating vaccination predate that landmark ruling by half a century. There has never been a federal law mandating vaccination in America, but since 1981 all fifty states have had mandatory vaccination legislation, and they are not obligated by federal law to permit non-medical exemptions.

In some states in the earlier part of the 19th century when smallpox epidemics had been savage there were laws requiring town authorities to adopt measures for the vaccination of their inhabitants twice a year, and those who refused to have their children vaccinated were fined. It was expensive to enforce, though, and more cost-effective for towns to simply hire physicians to vaccinate all who wished it for themselves and their children. Laws requiring isolation and quarantine of anyone potentially infected with smallpox were strictly enforced, which motivated more people to take advantage of the provided vaccine.

Massachusetts passed the first mandatory school vaccination law in 1855. While it protected older kids, it left children younger than school age vulnerable, and hundreds of victims in an 1859 smallpox epidemic were under the age of five. After that there were more attempts at compulsion, but it was never legally permissible to physically restrain any competent adult and inject them.

In the early 1900s the Boston area was besieged by smallpox, and in an effort to exterminate the disease the health board ordered everyone to be vaccinated. Those who refused were fined $5.00. By 1902 nearly half a million people had been vaccinated, and the epidemic ended in 1903. A Lutheran minister who'd immigrated from Sweden refused to be vaccinated, and refused to pay the fine. He was tried and found guilty, but appealed. Eventually it made its way up to the Supreme Court. In 1905 SCOTUS ruled in Jacobson v. Massachusetts that the right to refuse vaccination wasn't guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Writing for the majority, Justice John Marshall Harlan argued that, in the arena of public health, societal good trumped individual freedom. That ruling has never been overturned.

In 1922 officials in San Antonio, Texas expelled a teenager from high school because her parents refused to vaccinate her. Unlike in the previous ruling, the city wasn't ravaged by a smallpox epidemic, and there was not an imminent fear of one. Nevertheless, city officials refused to allow her to remain in their schools without being vaccinated, citing the welfare of the student body. That case also made its way to SCOTUS, and in an unanimous decision it was ruled that the girl's expulsion did not violate her constitutional rights. It was this ruling, Zucht v. King, that gave states the right to enforce vaccination as they deemed necessary.

In the 1960s and 1970s powerful political families determined to eradicate measles joined efforts. School mandates dramatically decreased outbreaks, to the gratitude of most of the public, but a few were furious that unvaccinated children could be barred from school, and sued the states, claiming protection under the First Amendment. It wasn't Zucht v. King that was the most influential on the rulings against those suits, or the others that followed in regards to vaccines, it was actually a suit that on its surface was unrelated to vaccination, Prince v. Massachusetts. The Justice who wrote the majority opinion for that case stated that "the right to practice religion freely does not include liberty to expose the community or the child to communicable disease or the latter to ill health or death. Parents may be free to become martyrs themselves, but it does not follow that they are free, in identical circumstances, to make martyrs of their children."
 
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I don't know about Stanford but I can tell you that Georgia Tech & Rice require immunization records for everybody. With GA Tech in particular they're real strict about you not only getting them in but getting them in by your deadline. There's 3 deadlines for students, going in alphabetical order. I did a dumb, misread it, got mine in during the 3rd deadline, not my own. On account of that my registration for everything was put on hold. I do mean everything, including orientation, pledging a fraternity. They were hardbutts about it. My girlfriend is at Ole Miss, she had to turn them in too. Like Stanfordella said Mississippi did away with all that personal & religious exemption stuff across the board.
 
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Zoii

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You seem very intelligent. Maybe you can make these dummies understand. Get the 100k and let me know when you do.
Yanni it seems like youre trying to score points so I'll let you have them. The answer is YES vaccines are safe BUT like any drug, natural therapy, or food there will be those who experience an adverse reaction. The rate of adverse events, depending on the vaccine, is 2:100 000. The adverse reactions lie on a continuum from the mild to anaphyllaxis. There are NO demonstrated long-term pathologies associated with vaccines.

So you may feel this is a gotcha moment - Ah huh!!! vaccines do cause adverse reactions in some people and you'd be right. But no more than eggs, peanuts, fish, pollens, etc etc. So try your question again because theres no absolutes. The food you eat may not be suitable for another person. Thats why vaccines are administered following an clinical assessment in order to minimize those that are at risk of adverse events.

Whats more prevalent is an anti-vaxxer getting the disease and then irresponsibly passing it onto the vulnerable all in the name of an ignorant cause.
 
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Ada Lovelace

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I grew up on the wealthy Westside of Los Angeles where a few years ago before Senate Bill 277 eliminating religious and philosophical exemptions for school immunization requirements went into effect the vaccination rates at some affluent private schools were lower than South Sudan's. To extrapolate from their elite socioeconomic status that parents who didn't vaccinate their children made more knowledgeable, responsible, and carefully deliberated decisions about it is fallacious. Studies have shown that a person's attitude, worldview, and societal prompts are frequently a stronger indicator as to whether she will vaccinate herself and her children than her education and income. This is an area where many work in the entertainment industry or in other creative capacities, and they gravitate towards the avant-garde. The independent private schools that were designed to be progressive and flaunt their unorthodoxy unsurprisingly had the lowest vaccination rates. These are schools that use buzzwords like "holistic development", "self-directed inquiry", "wholesome learning environment", and defy traditional school norms. At many children address teachers and administrators by their first names rather than formally, do not give out grades but instead just assessments, and have dietary programs that are aligned with the health trend du jour. The Muse School out in Malibu, which charges $20,000 a year for their preschool program for two to four-year-olds, and around $35,000 for high school had an abysmal rate. It was founded by James Cameron, a movie director, and his wife, and is the only school in the country (to my knowledge) that is entirely vegan. They believe it's unhealthy and environmentally irresponsible to consume or use animal products, including vegetarian ones such as eggs and yogurt. Popular kid food like those push-up yogurt tubes and Lunchables is viewed is scorned. The super-popular Delphi Schools, which use a curriculum designed by the Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard had a 77% PBE (personal belief exemption) rate. The Kabbalah Children's Academy, which is based on this trendy-creative esoteric blend of Judaism and mysticism also had an extremely high PBE rate. Walforf preschools and elementary schools (their high school programs aren't as experimental) incorporate knitting into their curriculum, and encourage parents to only buy toys for their children made from natural materials, and to not permit them to watch movies or television, or use any electronic devices, to make their childhood as "organic" as possible. They had something like an 80% PBE.

It also adores health and beauty fads, and for a while abstaining from vaccination was part of it in some circles, until we had major whooping cough and measles outbreaks. We have juice bars, IV bars (where people get vitamins via IVs), sweat huts, cryotherapy. It's obsessed with the idea of everything being natural internal purity; $400 detox smoothie powder, $12 juice elixirs from Cafe Gratitude; organic everything, and yet..... also loves Botox, and a considerable number of women use gestational carriers in lieu of natural pregnancy. Rose is currently in vogue - $22 rose oil and orange blossom toothpaste, $105 rose oil face oil, rose tea. I'm convinced this is tied to the popularity of the rose gold Mac products, ha.

Public schools and more traditional private schools had substantially higher vaccination rates, with several refusing to permit any non-medical exemptions long before SB-277. Those schools are located a bit inland from the coast, like in Bel Air, Sherman Oaks, and Hancock Park. The Mirman School for Gifted Children, Campbell Hall, The Curtis School, Marlborough - all schools where students wear uniforms and are expected to address adults formally; have conventional, academic-focused curriculums; require testing and interviews as part of the competitive admission process; have honor codes and rules - also had very high vaccination rates. Every school I and my siblings attended either had a 100% rate or very close to it. Parochial and orthodox Jewish schools had much higher rates, too, with 2%-0% PBEs.

Also, not all parents who didn't vaccinate their children, especially those of kindergarteners, were actually in opposition to vaccination. The ease of obtaining a personal belief exemption made it so that parents who simply hadn't completed the task in time would opt for it when enrolling their kids.

Another issue to consider is the misconception, sometimes held subconsciously, that wealth provides inoculation; that money can buy what money can't actually buy. It is true that well-nourished children who receive proper, timely medical care are less likely to die from afflictions such as whooping cough or the measles than malnourished, poorer ones, and those who are not provided with correct and prompt medical care, but they still suffer. And even the richest of parents have felt helpless. It's why actress Amanda Peet and her husband, author and Game of Thrones producer David Benioff have become dedicated advocates of vaccines; their daughter Molly contracted whooping cough when she was an infant and it was torturous - for her most of all, but also for them. Amanda Peet | Shot of Prevention
 
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