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According to the scriptures we are saved by Gods' grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Now if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God according to Romans 10:17 how can we demonstrate faith when God's Word says that we receive by faith by believing what God's Word says? Now God's Word says that the wicked will the destroyed at the second coming. Are we demonstrating faith by believing or not believing what Gods' Word says? How then can we demonstrate faith if we do not believe Gods' Word that we receive faith by and instead follow the lies of Universalism from Genesis 3:1-5 which says we can disobey God's Word and not surely die? I am genuinely interested to know your answers to the above questions.
Take Care.
I suspect what will happen is, you'll give me a counter interpretation of whatever verse I supply, and insist that interpretation is incontrovertible. And that any other way of seeing it, is completely invalid.
Here's one I came across on my own. I believe the standard argument is that it doesn't really say what says. I'll be testing you, as you requested, to see how well you can shoot it down in a clean and concise manner.
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15 as a key verse, but really all of Romans 5.
Obviously, we're demonstrating faith by believing that Jesus is the saviour of the world, and that means something, which is not the permanent and total destruction of the overwhelming majority. Here it is, now try to concentrate, try to think...
Saviour of world ≠ Destroyer of the many.
Saviour of the world = Redeemer of all.
It's really not rocket surgery. Under normal circumstances, I'd think you were pulling my leg with this absurd notion that Jesus saves the world by killing everyone. It's black humour, a sick joke, surely you get that...?
Remember the principle of scripture never contradicts itself and scripture interprets scripture. Yes using that verse is taken out of context. Look what Paul says earlier.
Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:1-2 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:1-2 - American Standard Version
And what he says later.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh:for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him . - Romans 8:1-17 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8:1-17 - American Standard Version
Not that faith is required for the graxe if God to be upon us. It does not happen automatically. We are justifies by faith and access by faith to the grace of God. Secondly in Romans 8
Walking in the flesh makes us in enmity with God. The mind of the flesh is death. The flesh cannot please God. The Spirit has to dwell within us to give us life. Those that do not have the Spirit in them are dead and are NONE OF HIS. If you are led by the Spirit you are the son of God and heirs with him of the kingdom. You have to have the Spirit of Christ within you and live in the Spirit not the flesh.
So, not the verse is NOT saying that everyone is automatically saved because of Christ's death and resurrection. You have to place your faith in him receive his sprit in order to be his and an heir to the kingdom. It's what it says. Context proves this point. Taking the verse out of context is the problem we see in UR. Scripture interprets scripture.
While I think it's clear he means all, the better citations are where he actually does: "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22)So what is Romans 5:15 saying then?
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"
That would be something to explore.... but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree. ...
While I think it's clear he means all, the better citations are where he actually does: "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22)
I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.
I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.
Ruth was a Moabite. (Ruth 1:22)
Ruth 1:16 NIV
But Ruth replied, “Don’t urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.
This must be the most indecipherable and impenetrable (to me, thank goodness) post I've yet read on CF, which is saying something lol
Since I am well-read in the "Identity" sect of Christianity, it makes sense to me. Most will not have the under-girding necessary to understand it fully.
'Identity' Christianity sounds pretty scary to me but I respect your opinion so is not having that under-girding and understanding something to be grateful for or is it something devoutly to be wished for?
Indentity is definitely Strong Meat, not milk.
While I think it's clear he means all, the better citations are where he actually does: "for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ" (1 Cor 15:22)
I don't accept universalism because I don't think Jesus did, but I think it's possible for Biblical authors to disagree.
So what is Romans 5:15 saying then?
"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!"
There's also, "That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10
I'm not saying that's proof of universalism, but I have to wonder what such statements are implying, because they certainly don't seem to imply exclusivism.
The only folks Jesus hosed down over salvation were the arrogant religious types who believed they were chosen and others weren't. Ah plus ca change...
It's implying what all scripture teaches. Chriat died for all to provide salvation for all. His sacrifice is sufficient to cover anyone and everyone who believes. If the entire world from Christ's time until now put their faith in him everyone would have been saved.
Jesus said to the disciples they are blessed because they saw him and believed, even more are blessed because they did not see him, but still believed.
I keep making this point. Jesus died for all to make a way for all. His sacrifice is enough. No other sacrifice needs be made. His sacrifice was enough to save everyone if everyone put their faith in him. The sad part is not everyone will. Because Jesus said it ... Men like darkness rather than light. People will prefer to live their lives their own way rather than entrust their lives to him and live his way.
The UR view is it divides people into two categories. All people, and then also, especially of those who believe. If Jesus is only the savior of those who believe, why the separate categories?
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