WHY UNIVERSALISM IS NOT TRUE?

[SabbathBlessings]

If you truly know your Bible, then you should already know that all that I am saying is "all over the place" in it, etc...

And, I don't mean any "offense", but I don't really feel like talking with people who do not know these things, because if they truly knew their Bibles, then they should already know and/or understand them, etc...



Most of the time this is 100% absolutely the case with people only going by the letter of it/them, etc...

But they are most of the time, not even aware of it, etc...



It is only what the Bible says about it, etc...



Then you have something else (a different understanding) besides just the letter of the law that is allowing you or enabling you to do that, if you are truly doing it/that, etc, and without it/that you would not be being able at all to ever do it at all, etc...


No, when I say "letter" here, I do not just mean the literal words, but the way and/or manner in which it is written/worded/understood, etc...

And that, if that was all you truly had, you would not be able to obey any of God's true laws at all, most especially not the much, much "higher" ones of them, etc...

You are not having success, if you are truly having success, if you only truly only have only the OT letter of it/them, etc, but only because you now understand or "read it" a little bit differently now only because of Jesus, etc, but without that, and with just only the OT letter of it/them, you would be lost, and not even know it, or ever even be aware of it, etc...

IOW's it is not by knowing the OT letter of it/them that is allowing you to have any kind of success, but it is only by your knowing what was added to them by Jesus only, that is now enabling you to do that, etc...

God Bless!

You wrote a lot, but I am honestly still trying to make sense of what you are teaching. It comes across that we should literally not keep God's commandments because in doing that all people who want to obey is doing it for the wrong reasons. And you know this because ....... ?

Sin is breaking God's laws 1 John 4:3 so if you don't want to keep God's laws because you think it makes you self-righteous when the bible teaches us God's law is righteous Psalms 119:172, Pure Psalms 19:8, Holy Romans 7:12, Perfect Psalms 19:7, James 1:25, True Neh 9:13, Psalms 119:142, 151, Faithful Psalms 119:86, Unchanging Mathew 5:18, Just Romans 7:12

We are better off obeying God than man. God commanded and Jesus taught us to obey God and this is how we show love to our Savior according to Jesus. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6
not when we disobey. The reasons we obey is between God and each individual but Jesus teaches that we should also teach keeping God's commandments and has some words about those teaching others to break God's commandments Mathew 5:19

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How do you know if I am breaking God's laws...?

What if I am not, etc...?

Or is that just what you say to everybody who says to you that OT letter of God's commands only, or that are taken just all by themselves alone or only, etc, cannot ever lead to true obedience and/or save, etc...?

God Bless!

I don't know other than what you have written, but you seem to be advocating that you know why all people keep God's laws and its for the wrong reasons, but yet seem to not advocate why we should keep God's laws. Seems a little strange to me that you place more emphasis on what others are doing instead of teaching breaking God's laws is a sin according to the bible 1 John 4:3

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't know other than what you have written, but you seem to be advocating that you know why all people keep God's laws and its for the wrong reasons

If all your having is just only the letter of it/them only, this is most often the case, just like the Bible says...

It is being done for all the wrong motivations or reasons and it becomes sin, etc...

but yet seem to not advocate why we should keep God's laws.

No I am saying that we should keep them, but the "why", or even more importantly the "how", is of the most paramount importance, etc...

Seems a little strange to me that you place more emphasis on what others are doing instead of teaching breaking God's laws is a sin according to the bible 1 John 4:3

When did I ever say breaking God's law is not a sin, etc...?

You seem to be trying to put words in my mouth that I did not and do not ever say, etc...?

And "why" is that, etc...?

Because you do not understand at all what I am saying, just as you apparently do not understand much of the Bible and most especially the NT also, etc...

Anyway, Peace to you...

God Bless!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If all your having is just only the letter of it/them only, this is most often the case, just like the Bible says...

It is being done for all the wrong motivations or reasons and it becomes sin, etc...



No I am saying that we should keep them, but the "why", or even more importantly the "how", is of the most paramount importance, etc...



When did I ever say breaking God's law is not a sin, etc...?

You seem to be trying to put words in my mouth that I did not and do not ever say, etc...?

And "why" is that, etc...?

Because you do not understand at all what I am saying, just as you apparently do not understand much of the Bible and most especially the NT also, etc...

Anyway, Peace to you...

God Bless!

I guess I am confused how you would know why I obey God's commandments or my understanding of the New Testament. Maybe you can quote scripture instead so we can go through them together for our understanding like we did with the rich ruler. As I stated on multiple posts we obey God because of love. Only God knows our intention of why we obey and not sure why you bring this part up so much unless you are trying to prove that you know what is in others hearts. Only God knows that.

 

[Neogaia777]

I guess I am confused how you would know why I obey God's commandments or my understanding of the New Testament. Maybe you can quote scripture instead so we can go through them together for our understanding like we did with the rich ruler. As I stated on multiple posts we obey God because of love. Only God knows our intention of why we obey and not sure why you bring this part up so much unless you are trying to prove that you know what is in others hearts. Only God knows that.

I only know what I have seen, and with what is said in the Bible about the OT law and how it becomes sin for the person, etc, now am I saying that you are personally doing that? No I am not, because I don't know that, etc... But I am also saying that you wouldn't have the understanding or revelation of love, which is why or how you say you keep them, if you did not have what was added to the law or OT by Jesus in the NC or NT, etc...

And I personally don't like quoting specific scriptures, and do you know "why", etc...? It's because I don't like doing it out it's "context", it feels deceptive and a way to use it anyway you want to to me, etc, and I can do that, etc, but it does not at all ever "feel right" ever at all either, etc, because I know that if I was to be "honest" I would have to quote entire passages/chapters or complete books, etc, and that is most oftentimes why I don't do it, etc, because it feels dishonest, etc, like for example, you used/quoted some (single) lines/verses from Romans, etc, more specifically Romans 7, well, I got to tell you that with "Romans", etc, I almost feel like it takes almost the entire book to have any of it in it's right "context", etc...

And to me "context" is very, very important or it feels dishonest, etc...

So I don't ever like "cherry picking" scriptures hardly ever at all ever, etc...

But I cannot tell you how many times I have read/listened it/them all though, because it's "a lot", etc, but I did so as entire books start to finish, etc, so my understanding is a little bit different from all of those who just cherry pick verses out here and there, etc...

Anybody can do that and have it/them mean "whatever they want them to support and/or mean", etc, and to me, that is very very "dishonest", etc...

Anyway...

God Bless!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I only know what I have seen, and with what is said in the Bible about the OT law and how it becomes sin for the person, etc, now am I saying that you are personally doing that? No I am not, because I don't know that, etc... But I am also saying that you wouldn't have the understanding or revelation of love, which is why or how you say you keep them, if you did not have what was added to the law or OT by Jesus in the NC or NT, etc...

And I personally don't like quoting specific scriptures, and do you know "why", etc...? It's because I don't like doing it out it's "context", it feels deceptive and a way to use it anyway you want to to me, etc, and I can do that, etc, but it does not at all ever "feel right" ever at all either, etc, because I know that if I was to be "honest" I would have to quote entire passages/chapters or complete books, etc, and that is most oftentimes why I don't do it, etc, because it feels dishonest, etc, like for example, you used/quoted some (single) lines/verses from Romans, etc, more specifically Romans 7, well, I got to tell you that with "Romans", etc, I almost feel like it takes almost the entire book to have any of it in it's right "context", etc...

And to me "context" is very, very important or it feels dishonest, etc...

So I don't ever like "cherry picking" scriptures hardly ever at all ever, etc...

But I cannot tell you how many times I have read/listened it/them all though, because it's "a lot", etc, but I did so as entire books start to finish, etc, so my understanding is a little bit different from all of those who just cherry pick verses out here and there, etc...

Anybody can do that and have it/them mean "whatever they want them to support and/or mean", etc, and to me, that is very very "dishonest", etc...

Anyway...

God Bless!

Sorry, that makes no sense, you don't like quoting scriptures because of context, but have no problem writing commentary that shows no context when you do not add the scripture quotes.

What was added to God's laws? In the New Covenant God's laws is written in our hearts Hebrews 10:16. We obey not because God commanded us to, because we love God and fulfill God's laws when we obey, not disobey. Obeying God is a fruit of our faith. God's laws did not change in the NC, they are eternal Psalms 89:34, Mathew 5:18

Jesus came to magnify God's laws, not change. Isaiah 42:21

 

[Neogaia777]

Jesus came to magnify God's laws, not change. Isaiah 42:21

He actually set the bar even higher, etc...

But, anyway, I think I'm done going back and forth with you for a awhile on here, OK... No offense to you, but it's just not worth it anymore now to me, OK, and I really don't feel like I have anymore to add at this point beyond what I already said earlier either, so...?

But, "good luck" with that letter of the law/Sabbath keeping, and all of that, etc, OK... Maybe in the end you'll end up "even much more righteous than anyone" in the end maybe, etc...?

Anyway, Peace...

God Bless!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He actually set the bar even higher, etc...

But, anyway, I think I'm done going back and forth with you for a awhile on here, OK... No offense to you, but it's just not worth it anymore now to me, OK, and I really don't feel like I have anymore to add at this point beyond what I already said earlier either, so...?

But, "good luck" with that letter of the law/Sabbath keeping, and all of that, etc, OK... Maybe in the end you'll end up "even much more righteous than anyone" in the end maybe, etc...?

Anyway, Peace...

God Bless!

I have said that about 5 posts ago and I even quoted the scripture reference (murder begins in the heart, but does that mean it's okay to literally murder someone?) but you seemed to have disregard my post. I'm not sure what luck has to do with obeying God. Not sure why you are so concerned with with my reasons I obey God even when I told you it's because of love and again seems like you're judging me for some reason (?), but I agree, we will have to agree to disagree. God bless

 

[Neogaia777]

I have said that about 5 posts ago and I even quoted the scripture reference (murder begins in the heart, but does that mean it's okay to literally murder someone?) but you seemed to have disregard my post. I'm not sure what luck has to do with obeying God. Not sure why you are so concerned with with my reasons that I obey God and again seems like you're judging me for some reason (?), but I agree, we will have to agree to disagree. God bless

Yeah I'm kind of partially sorry for that last little bit, but I couldn't resist, etc...

But and/or anyway, yeah let's just agree to disagree for now, OK...

But, if it means anything to you, from what I could tell on here anyway, you seem like you may be a decent enough person, and I don't like getting ugly with people who might be pretty decent people, so...

And that might be part of the reason I'm ending it here for now also maybe, so...

So I truly hope you have a truly awesome life and a very very good day, OK...

Peace and God's Love

God Bless!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

To be honest I do not understand why some people think that God's salvation is not conditional on believing and following what God's Word says.

 

[Andrewn]

To be honest I do not understand why some people think that God's salvation is not conditional on believing and following what God's Word says.

I don't think anyone thinks that God's salvation is not conditional on believing and following what God's Word says.

Christians may believe in one (or more) of 4 scenarios:

1) Predestinarianism.
2) Eternal Conscious Damnation.
3) Annihilationism.
4) Ultimate redemption (after suffering their just penalty and believing in Christ).

What contradicts the NT is Universalism: that all people will be saved without believing in Christ and following what He says. Universalism is not true.

 

[Neogaia777]

To be honest I do not understand why some people think that God's salvation is not conditional on believing and following what God's Word says.

And @All...

"In that way in which you are judging", or by your own standards, "you will be judged", etc... So I hope you fully live up to it fully, and/or all of the time and/or always, "or else", etc... Because by the way that you are judging, etc, is how you will be judged, etc...

You guys think judgement is just "so very, very simple", etc... It is the very heights of egotism and/or arrogance, which God completely and 100% totally detests and despises very very much greatly and 100% completely, etc...

And you might just be His enemies, etc...

Continue to go by the way of law and works, and your own self-righteousness, and just see what happens, etc...

I'm glad my God is not that way, etc...

Yours may be, but not mine...

God Bless!

 

[Lazarus Short]

To be honest I do not understand why some people think that God's salvation is not conditional on believing and following what God's Word says.

I see my salvation as conditional on God's love and mercy, not on anything I believe or do. Jesus the Christ, as the Scriptures say, is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I don't think anyone thinks that God's salvation is not conditional on believing and following what God's Word says.

Christians may believe in one (or more) of 4 scenarios:

1) Predestinarianism.
2) Eternal Conscious Damnation.
3) Annihilationism.
4) Ultimate redemption (after suffering their just penalty and believing in Christ).

What contradicts the NT is Universalism: that all people will be saved without believing in Christ and following what He says. Universalism is not true.

Any of the positions you mention can be supported with the right verses from the right version. That is why discussions on the subject are never ending...until Messiah comes, that is.

 

[Andrewn]

Any of the positions you mention can be supported with the right verses from the right version. That is why discussions on the subject are never ending...until Messiah comes, that is.

I agree that any of these positions can be supported.

Both you and @Saint Steven mention choosing the right version. IMO, this doesn't make any difference. Regardless of the words chosen by translators, one should always keep in mind the Greek terms behind the translation. We should be looking at the Greek terms behind English words like "hell" and "eternal" and "destruction." Ancient Church Fathers were able to reach the same conclusions reading only the Greek originals.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I agree that any of these positions can be supported.

Both you and @Saint Steven mention choosing the right version. IMO, this doesn't make any difference. Regardless of the words chosen by translators, one should always keep in mind the Greek terms behind the translation. We should be looking at the Greek terms behind English words like "hell" and "eternal" and "destruction." Ancient Church Fathers were able to reach the same conclusions reading only the Greek originals.

Believe me when I tell you that I have often looked at interlinear versions of verses of interest to me, and have looked up Greek and Hebrew words to see the meaning better. Doing so has only solidified my position. Further, as I read through the KJV, I did see evidence of bad/dishonest translation. I have seen "judgment" rendered as "condemnation" and "condemnation" rendered as "damnation." I have also seen how "sheol" was rendered as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, and the other half, as "hell." Looking closer, I saw that the "hell" rendering was usually used when context allowed, but it was not fully consistent.

Not all "Ancient Church Father" were of the same opinion on these issues, btw...

 

[Neogaia777]

Believe me when I tell you that I have often looked at interlinear versions of verses of interest to me, and have looked up Greek and Hebrew words to see the meaning better. Doing so has only solidified my position. Further, as I read through the KJV, I did see evidence of bad/dishonest translation. I have seen "judgment" rendered as "condemnation" and "condemnation" rendered as "damnation." I have also seen how "sheol" was rendered as "grave" or "pit" about half the time, and the other half, as "hell." Looking closer, I saw that the "hell" rendering was usually used when context allowed, but it was not fully consistent.

Not all "Ancient Church Father" were of the same opinion on these issues, btw...

Well, I don't know the Greek or Hebrew words that were used for everlasting or eternal, or forever, or forever and ever, etc, but I do know the three words for the grave and/or hell were Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, etc, and are there in place of the grave and/or hell in all "honest translations", etc...

Sheol typically means "grave", and Hades typically means "a holding place of or for the dead" (till judgement day, etc), and Gehenna, typically means "the lake of fire" (at the end of time after judgement day) typically, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Well, I don't know the Greek or Hebrew words that were used for everlasting or eternal, or forever, or forever and ever, etc, but I do know the three words for the grave and/or hell were Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna, etc, and are there in place of the grave and/or hell in all "honest translations", etc...

Sheol typically means "grave", and Hades typically means "a holding place of or for the dead" (till judgement day, etc), and Gehenna, typically means "the lake of fire" (at the end of time after judgement day) typically, etc...

God Bless!

Hades was opposed to Abraham's bosom, respectively, etc...

So going to Hades was not considered "good" or "a very good thing", etc...

But perhaps redeemable by the time of the very final judgement day maybe, but the lake of fire (Gehenna) is after that (judgement day), and is permanent, and eternal, and there is no coming back from it/there once and/or after you are sent there, etc...

God Bless!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I see my salvation as conditional on God's love and mercy, not on anything I believe or do. Jesus the Christ, as the Scriptures say, is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

Yet all of God's promises are conditional on believing and following what God's Word says according to the scriptures. Gods' love and mercy is also conditional in believing and following what God's Word says according to the scriptures *see Exodus 20:6; John 14:15; John 15:10; Matthew 7:21; James 1:12 etc etc. There is no mercy in unrepentant disobedience and sin (scriptures provided in the OP first post page 1) only justice and judgement according to the scriptures.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

And @All...

"In that way in which you are judging", or by your own standards, "you will be judged", etc... So I hope you fully live up to it fully, and/or all of the time and/or always, "or else", etc... Because by the way that you are judging, etc, is how you will be judged, etc...

You guys think judgement is just "so very, very simple", etc... It is the very heights of egotism and/or arrogance, which God completely and 100% totally detests and despises very very much greatly and 100% completely, etc...

And you might just be His enemies, etc...

Continue to go by the way of law and works, and your own self-righteousness, and just see what happens, etc...

I'm glad my God is not that way, etc...

Yours may be, but not mine...

God Bless!

For me, I do not judge anyone. It is the Word of God according to the scriptures that is our judge come judgement day according to John 12:47-48. Only God's Word is righteous judgement and this is the standard of all judgement that we are all to judge by and be judged according to the scriptures * John 7:24.