Why unbelievers cannot understand

[Stinker]

At this forum and every other Christian based forum, we see it. Out in the world we hear it. Nonbelievers unable to connect with the concept taught in New Testament. Many are told that if a person just takes up and starts going to church every worship morning and do what the Pastor says to do, and obey what is taught in the New Testament about dealing with our fellow man, that they will go to heaven. To most unbelievers, obeying Theistic commands for the rest of their life are worse than the thought of going into the Marine Corps bootcamp and staying in the Corps for life. What a deadful and boring life one would have, they may think. Why do so many unbelievers dread the thought of having to live life like a counterfeit Quaker in order to get into heaven? Because they have not been born again or spiritually regenerated. The kind of 'belief' that the world teaches is not the kind of belief that the New Testament teaches. The kind of belief the New Testament commands for unbelievers is that one must surrender their being over to Jesus Christ, to give up the Captain's Chair to Him, to cross over the threshold of what they consider insanity and press on over to the other side. Then and only then, will that person bear the essence of having come into contact with Jesus Christ. Then and only then, will obeying Christ's commandments not be drudgery but a joyful part of who we now are.

 

[martymonster]

The reason unbelievers do not understand is because they do not believe, and they do not believe because God has not given them that belief.

No one decides to just believe, it is God who chooses who is to believe and who is not!

 

[Dark_Lite]

Why do so many unbelievers dread the thought of having to live life like a counterfeit Quaker in order to get into heaven?

I think many people who are not Christian look inside our religion and see something insular, intolerant, and closed-minded. I like to think that the majority of the world's Christian population is composed of normal people who set a decent example of Christ for others, but the minorities always paints the broadest picture of a group. Those who display scathing hatred yet claim to follow the man who taught love and peace turn off many potential converts.

It's impossible to begin turning your life over to Jesus if those who supposedly have done it are such evil people.

Because they have not been born again or spiritually regenerated. The kind of 'belief' that the world teaches is not the kind of belief that the New Testament teaches. The kind of belief the New Testament commands for unbelievers is that one must surrender their being over to Jesus Christ, to give up the Captain's Chair to Him, to cross over the threshold of what they consider insanity and press on over to the other side. Then and only then, will that person bear the essence of having come into contact with Jesus Christ. Then and only then, will obeying Christ's commandments not be drudgery but a joyful part of who we now are.

I don't think Christianity displays itself to the world as apparent insanity. If it did, it certainly wouldn't have any followers or converts. The beliefs that Christianity teaches aren't really all that different from what basic human morality tells us. It's funny how that works. Most religions teach the same basic moral truths: don't kill, don't lie, etc. The difference is in the details.

The secular world appears to be a lot more lenient than Christianity in terms of its morals, of course. However, it still adheres to the same basic things that are necessary for humans to survive as a society (i.e. don't murder). There has to be something basic that allows humans to realize that Christianity is true, and it couldn't be God just arbitrarily choosing to enlighten certain souls. Deep in our hearts, we all realize that there are certain things we must do to at the very least survive as a race. It is that, combined with reason, that can allow us to move towards Christianity and is the process you call being "born again."

In short, I'm saying that your supposed difference of "New Testament belief" and "world belief" are not as wide as they seem. There is a basic foundational portion of this "New Testament belief" in everyone, or else how would Christianity have any followers?

Edit:

No one decides to just believe, it is God who chooses who is to believe and who is not!

That makes God into some sort of sadistic being. If he just arbitrarily chooses who is to follow him and who is to not follow him, how is that possibly even fair? He's basically saying, "You're going to hell.. You're not going to hell... You are..." I do not, cannot, see God being that way. It makes no sense.

 

[Zebra1552]

I think the root of it is that they do not want to admit that an invisible deity written about 2000 years ago can impact their lives and have authority over it. They don't want the accountability.

 

[ebia]

Which "unbelievers" are we talking about? Just as pagans and jews had different problems accepting it when Paul preached the gospel, the people in our world aren't really one homogenuous culture. The problems a supposedly rationalist, modernist, atheist, will have with it are very different to the problems a post-modernist will have with it. The problems someone of the baby-boomer years are different to the problems of someone from generation X are different from the problems of someone from generation Y. Paul wouldn't preach the same first sermon on the Areopagus as in the synagogue. The mission to the pagans looks a bit different to the mission to the jews, because each is starting in a different place. Too often we aren't missioning to anybody, we are simply broadcasting at everybody and wondering why they don't come flooding across to where we are.

Secondly for the early church the biggest factor that made people sit up and take notice was the lives those congregations led, which were dramatically different from those around. That makes people sit up and ask "why?". One should be able to say "want to see what the Kingdom of God looks like in practice - just walk down to your local church congregation and see". How many of our current congregations look like the Kingdom of God in action? - precious few in the western world, I suggest.

 

[martymonster]

Actually Dark Lite, it's biblical!

The thing that makes it seem sadistic is the Hell fire doctrine.

That's the reason had to come up with the doctrine of freewill, so they can have doctrine of eternal punishment and let God off the hook too.

 

[Van]

Matthew 13:1-23 tells us of differing kinds of people, some cannot understand, some understand but do not fully commit, others understand, commit, but still also cling to the treasures of this world, and others understand, commit, and treasure Christ alone, these are the ones whose faith God credits as righteousness and causes to be born again.

Unbelievers who view a life committed only to God as dreadful and boring may only be rationalizing, they want to sit in the Captain's chair, and so they manufacture reasons to reject God's authority. What did Jesus say? You do not come to me because you are unwilling!

 

[Dark_Lite]

Actually Dark Lite, it's biblical!

The thing that makes it seem sadistic is the Hell fire doctrine.

That's the reason had to come up with the doctrine of freewill, so they can have doctrine of eternal punishment and let God off the hook too.

There is an entire debate surrounding free will and predestination indeed. But let's discard the Bible for a minute (uh oh, blasphemy alert!). Look at this from someone who is not a Christian, but is on the fence of converting or becoming an atheist. Would that person really want to convert if they learned that God just chooses who he pleases for salvation and rejects all others? I know I wouldn't.

Many things can be "biblical" (see: slavery and stoning of people) if things are read out of it. It's reason, though, that allows us to determine if something really is worth believing in. We could get a lot more in depth with predestination, so it might be worth another thread (admittedly I need to read up on the various arguments for it), but my logic tells me that predestination couldn't possibly exist if we accept that hell exists and is eternal as described in many places throughout the Bible. For God to be good, we must have a choice in our salvation.

 

[artybloke]

an invisible deity written about 2000 years ago

What is your god, a book, or God?

Actually Dark Lite, it's biblical!

So is slavery and genocide. What's that got to do with anything?

 

[Jac3510]

Actually Dark Lite, it's biblical!

The thing that makes it seem sadistic is the Hell fire doctrine.

That's the reason had to come up with the doctrine of freewill, so they can have doctrine of eternal punishment and let God off the hook too.

You Calvinists are so silly . . . it's not biblical. (Let the proof-texting and eisogesis begin!)

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edit: actually, let's not do the proof-texting and eisogesis. This is a philosophy subforum, not a theological one. So let's handle it philosophically.

1. It was a sin for Adam to disobey God's command;
2. God caused Adam to disobey His command via foreordination of his actions;
3. Therefore, God caused Adam to sin.

But,

1. To cause someone to sin is sin;
2. God caused Adam to sin;
3. Therefore, God sinned.

Sorry, the whole notion of the election/Calvinism thing is just unbiblical from a logical perspective. It makes God responsible for all sin, especially the sin of rejecting Jesus, and thus, makes God a sinner.
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To the OP:

Unbelievers don't understand for the same reason that I don't understand calculus (or women). Christian Theism begins with a certain set of presuppositions that they simply either don't know or don't want to accept. Christianity is imminently rational, and we do a disservice to the unbelieving world when we say silly things like, "It can't be comprehended! Only trusted!" That type of "check your reason at the door" mentality is the very attitude that has caused Christianity to be marginalized in the intellectual community.

Obviously, we can never reason a person into heaven. But we can remove their intellectual barriers. But that is no different than any other thing you do in life when you have to make a decision. You look at the circumstances, consequences, etc., and based on what you know about reality, you are persuaded to act in one way or another. If someone wants you to act in a different way, they have to demonstrate to you where your reasoning is at fault.

So it is when we witness. You can see both Jesus and Paul going through those processes during their ministry. They constantly engaged in pre-evangelism, forcing people to question the adequacy of their beliefs before presenting them with the Gospel. We should do the same thing.

Of course, there's also plain old fashioned pride that gets in the way. People don't want to admit that they are wrong. Add to that the emotional barriers people have, which they mask by intellectual arguments, and you have, often times, a tough egg to crack. But it's crackable. It just takes a lot of time and patience, and, of course, a little conviction by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Zebra1552]

What is your god, a book, or God?

I think you must have missed the part where I said 'a deity written about'. That means he's God and is written about in a book. One of many testimonies to him.

 

[martymonster]

There is an entire debate surrounding free will and predestination indeed. But let's discard the Bible for a minute (uh oh, blasphemy alert!). Look at this from someone who is not a Christian, but is on the fence of converting or becoming an atheist. Would that person really want to convert if they learned that God just chooses who he pleases for salvation and rejects all others? I know I wouldn't.

Many things can be "biblical" (see: slavery and stoning of people) if things are read out of it. It's reason, though, that allows us to determine if something really is worth believing in. We could get a lot more in depth with predestination, so it might be worth another thread (admittedly I need to read up on the various arguments for it), but my logic tells me that predestination couldn't possibly exist if we accept that hell exists and is eternal as described in many places throughout the Bible. For God to be good, we must have a choice in our salvation.

So there you go!

What you have to do is determine which one is the heretical doctrine then.

As you said, predestination can't be true if Hell is real because that makes God out to be a monster, but neither does freewill actually let Him off the hook either.

God doesn't need to be let off the hook because He has had a plan from the very beginning and it does not involve burning most of His creation alive for all eternity which is merely human reasoning.

If you want to start another thread or pm me please do, but I fear I have hijacked this thread unintentionally already.

It's hard not to hijack a thread because belief systems are a structure and doctrines are the beams and if one beam is rotten any weight that gets put on it will bring the whole thing crashing down!

 

[martymonster]

So is slavery and genocide. What's that got to do with anything?

Oh boy!

 

[artybloke]

Dear marty,

I'm sure you can get predestination out of the Bible if you wish. You can get anything you like out of the Bible, simply by taking things out of context and using it to justify your position (proof-texting, or cut-and-paste). That's what all Catholics, all Orthodox, all Arminians, all Calvinists, the wackiest of dispensationalists and pentecostalists do to justify everything from infant baptism to Jesus returning at 8'o'clock next Thursday. And it's been used to justify slavery, apartheid, genocide almost from when it was written.

Calling something "Biblical" is meaningless in itself. You need to justify it a lot more than cutting verses out of context and making them mean what you want them to mean.

 

[SpiritDriven]

The Wisdom of Men is as dust and ashes blowing in the wind....Jesus himself said that if he be exalted out of the Earth, that he would draw all unto him....and that his words will never pass away.

Paul writes in Timothy that it is God who wills that all be saved and come to the relisation of the Truth.

Isaiah reminds us that the word of God that goes forth from his mouth, will not return to him void with out accomplishing what he desires, and with out succeeding in the matter for which he sent it.

Martymonster mentioned before that it is God who gives belief and unbelief, this is true, it is God who hardens it is God who shows mercy....but everything God does leads to the eventual Salvation of all.

God does not go about doing things the way men would, everything God does will lead to his ultimate Glorification by all.

Much is too happen between now and then.....the place of the believer now, is to be here for those predestinated to hear and believe, and so be part of those at his comming....

The order of the Salvation of all, is written in scripture....Christ the first fruit, then those at his comming, then the consumation, but each man in his order.

Peace

 

[brightmorningstar]

Superb OP and thread Stinker.

I agree with most of the posts here. I also think that has created us with free will but knows which way we will choose. Which is kind of a bit of both free will and predestination.


To ebia,

Which "unbelievers" are we talking about?

I would say the ones the Biblical testimony talks about, not the worldly ones you discussed.

But I partly agree with you about looking at Christians, yes Christians should stand out as different, however the world needs to look at Jesus not at Christians, Jesus is perfect, Christians still fall short

Yes we are bought at a price, the old is dead the new has come, we are a new creation in Christ. hallejuiah.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Why do so many unbelievers dread the thought of having to live life like a counterfeit Quaker in order to get into heaven? Because they have not been born again or spiritually regenerated. The kind of 'belief' that the world teaches is not the kind of belief that the New Testament teaches. The kind of belief the New Testament commands for unbelievers is that one must surrender their being over to Jesus Christ,...

It's a good question, but I don't think your partisan answer touches the root of the problem. If one is 'bad', and would prefer to remain 'bad', you may have a point. But I think most developed world unbelievers are really quite moral, and just don't need moralising Christians to explain to them why they are 'bad'. It may even be that ethical unbelievers are more 'moral' than the 'Christians' that moralise at them. Where this is so, my sympathies are entirely with the unbeliever, given that the supposed example is often so crassly at fault.

Best wishes, 2ndRateMind.

 

[Wade Smith]

For God to be good, we must have a choice in our salvation.

I don't want to derail, but we do have a choice, and I've shown it countless times in scripture.

People take Paul's teaching in romans to mean everything about salvation,or in some cases, everything period, is "predetermined". This could not be farther from the truth.

As beings created in the image and likeness of God, human beings have free choice. There are several cases where God specificly gives the choice to man, and other cases where God says after a bad choice was made that he had nothing to do with it. Further, James tells us that God does not tempt man to do evil.

Knowing this, if God indeed controlled everything like a puppet master, then James would have to be a liar. If God controls me, and I sin, then it is no longer I that sin, but the puppet master who caused it. If God controls everything, and the devil tempts me to sin, then God tempted me by proxy. This is why neither Calvinism nor any other brand of fatalism can be true.


Additionally, "omnipotence" wouldn't even be that impressive in a calvinist or fatalist universe. Power is only impressive if it is used to overcome an obstacle. Power is not impressive when there in fact is no obstacle. If outcomes are already decided ahead of time, and in fact caused by God, then everything we percieve is merely an illusion. In terms of ontology, we would be worth no more than a paper doll.

But John said that when we rise we are going to know him, because we are going to be LIKE him and see him as he is.

A puppet cannot be "like" a puppet master. A puppet is nothing but a pathetic thing with strings attached, which the puppet master jiggles around.

But human beings are said to be "like" Christ in the resurrection, and are said to be joint heirs with him, and as well married to him. Only an insane puppetmaster would marry an inanimate object.


The idea of free choice about everything "except" salvation is also bogus. After all, if I have free choice, then at any given moment that means I can make a particular choice of action to take. If that's the case, I could choose salvation. But if God supposedly has me marked for hell anyway, then I go to hell, even if I choose Jesus. This also is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible says, "Choose life that you may live..."


So again, total free choice in all matters, both natural and spiritual, is the only thing that is biblical.

 

[SpiritDriven]

I don't want to derail, but we do have a choice, and I've shown it countless times in scripture.

People take Paul's teaching in romans to mean everything about salvation,or in some cases, everything period, is "predetermined". This could not be farther from the truth.

To the contrary...it was God who shut Saul up in his disobedience...it was God who called Saul to be Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles...actualy both Saul and Paul existed soley via the will of God in the first place

As beings created in the image and likeness of God, human beings have free choice.

Man has no choice about being here in the first place, and no say in his...final... destiny with God (note... final ... destiny very important)

There are several cases where God specificly gives the choice to man, and other cases where God says after a bad choice was made that he had nothing to do with it. Further, James tells us that God does not tempt man to do evil.

You will have to show these cases....and then explain away why scripture states that it is out of the mouth of the most high that ..all.. good and evil goes forth.

Knowing this, if God indeed controlled everything like a puppet master,

Imagine every human being as a clay pot with an invisible hand molding...that is the reality...clay!

then James would have to be a liar.

James did not lie...God does not have to tempt God acts...God is the source of everything including...all...good and evil


If God controls me, and I sin, then it is no longer I that sin, but the puppet master who caused it. If God controls everything, and the devil tempts me to sin, then God tempted me by proxy. This is why neither Calvinism nor any other brand of fatalism can be true.

The Puppet master as you refer to him, had all the Sin of the entire human race taken away completly at the Cross...full stop.


Additionally, "omnipotence" wouldn't even be that impressive in a calvinist or fatalist universe. Power is only impressive if it is used to overcome an obstacle. Power is not impressive when there in fact is no obstacle. If outcomes are already decided ahead of time, and in fact caused by God, then everything we percieve is merely an illusion. In terms of ontology, we would be worth no more than a paper doll.

We are much lower than that...the potter has right over the clay!

But John said that when we rise we are going to know him, because we are going to be LIKE him and see him as he is.

A puppet cannot be "like" a puppet master. A puppet is nothing but a pathetic thing with strings attached, which the puppet master jiggles around.

Yes we are truly pathetic and unworthy but once again we are even lower than a puppet on strings...Clay remember!

But human beings are said to be "like" Christ in the resurrection, and are said to be joint heirs with him, and as well married to him. Only an insane puppetmaster would marry an inanimate object.

Jesus said God can make sons out of the stones lying around on the ground to herald the approach of Jesus towards Jerusalem...you doubt the power of the living God!


The idea of free choice about everything "except" salvation is also bogus.

Not at all, Paul writes that it is not about the man who wills or the man who runs but of God who has mercy...Jonah would back Paul up on that!


After all, if I have free choice, then at any given moment that means I can make a particular choice of action to take. If that's the case, I could choose salvation. But if God supposedly has me marked for hell anyway, then I go to hell, even if I choose Jesus. This also is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible says, "Choose life that you may live..."

So why have you not chosen to be one of the especially of believers, spoken of in 1 Timothy 4... see verses 9 10 and 11


So again, total free choice in all matters, both natural and spiritual, is the only thing that is biblical.

Really.... where ?

 

[artybloke]

That means he's God and is written about in a book.

So what's that got to do with the Bible being the word of God? The (or even a) word about God, but not of God, surely? Of course, there are plenty of other books about God as well.