Why Two Opposites In This Forum?

didaskalos said:

We must remember that so often in life, the only people who realize the injustice are the victims. The perpetrators always either deny the abuse or seek to justify it, even calling it a "right." Try being the victim of this sort of abuse for awhile and you will no longer be blind to it.

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BOTH two sides are guilty of doing this.

FreeinChrist said:

The nonWof subforum should be a place for nonWoF to discuss, even debate among themselves and fellowship. To "complain" .....that depends on what. No congregational forum should be a safe house to poke at anothher group here at CF. Surely there are things to discuss and learn about in the nonWoF forum or the WoF forum without complaining about each other.

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You've just hit the nail square on the head. The non-WoF forum is quite often used to complain about and "poke" at WoF members.

Also, as usually happens in these discussions, the idea was brought up that the WoF forum does this as well. But I would challenge anyone who believes that this is an equally weighted problem to go peruse the threads in each of the forums.

The first thing you'll notice is that the WoF forum is active daily, while the non-WoF forum is quite often dormant. Lest you think that is an over exaggeration, check the first page of each forum's thread index. There are 25 threads on each. In the WoF forum, those threads date back to April 5, 2010. In the non-WoF forum, those same 25 threads date back to July 22, 2009. To put into perspective the difference in the volume of traffic, in the WoF forum, you have to go halfway down page 9, through more than 200 threads, to equate to the time frame represented by the 25 that are in the non-WoF forum.

Then, look at the content of those threads. A very large number of those threads in the non-WoF forum are to either complain about or take shots at WoF. The same can not be said for the WoF forum.

Now that's not to say that it's not a two-sided problem, because the WoF forum and membership do take shots at non-WoF people at times, but it is nowhere near the level of frequency and pervasiveness as that of the non-WoF members.

So I stand by my statement that the non-WoF forum is very anti-WoF, and that is the crux of the problem.

didaskalos said:

LOL..
At one point I thought it had been miss-named and should have been called the "non-dids" forum.

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LOL and for years, people would know that by now.

disciple-ofjesus said:

exactly. Since he brought it up, he isn't exactly innocent in all this. Pushing buttons to get a reaction is just as bad. Sometimes I hate those stupid smilies. I may of been strong in my posting, I apologize for that, but not what I said, NOR what I believe. I could of toned things down. I should have. God confirmed to me in several ways yesterday in 2 separate church services, that my believes are ok!

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Of course I am not innocent and you are not innocent in this department either. And yes, you could have toned things down and this would have been avoided.

probinson said:

You've just hit the nail square on the head. The non-WoF forum is quite often used to complain about and "poke" at WoF members.

Also, as usually happens in these discussions, the idea was brought up that the WoF forum does this as well. But I would challenge anyone who believes that this is an equally weighted problem to go peruse the threads in each of the forums.

The first thing you'll notice is that the WoF forum is active daily, while the non-WoF forum is quite often dormant. Lest you think that is an over exaggeration, check the first page of each forum's thread index. There are 25 threads on each. In the WoF forum, those threads date back to April 5, 2010. In the non-WoF forum, those same 25 threads date back to July 22, 2009. To put into perspective the difference in the volume of traffic, in the WoF forum, you have to go halfway down page 9, through more than 200 threads, to equate to the time frame represented by the 25 that are in the non-WoF forum.

Then, look at the content of those threads. A very large number of those threads in the non-WoF forum are to either complain about or take shots at WoF. The same can not be said for the WoF forum.

Now that's not to say that it's not a two-sided problem, because the WoF forum and membership do take shots at non-WoF people at times, but it is nowhere near the level of frequency and pervasiveness as that of the non-WoF members.

So I stand by my statement that the non-WoF forum is very anti-WoF, and that is the crux of the problem.

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I don't know but you may be correct. However, sarcasms, belittling and other forms have occurred alot from WOF in the main forum. I am not saying that we non-WOF are not guilty in this but this does take TWO sides to cause problems, not just one side. Each group is being defensive against aggressors and vise versa.

probinson said:

The problem is the non-WoF forum is hardly ever used for like-minded "fellowship". It is most often used to vent and gripe about WoF beliefs and believers. Days, and sometimes entire weeks, go by without a single post in the non-WoF forum, until someone has something to complain about.

I was the forum manager on staff at the time the non-WoF forum was created and was actually quite integral to the creation of it. The intent was for people who did not hold WoF beliefs to have a place to discuss those things freely, just as WoF believers have a place to do so. Like-minded fellowship was always intended to be the purpose. I still support that idea. But that is not how the non-WoF forum has operated. It is very anti-WoF in nature.

And that is the problem.

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Quote for truth. I was also on staff at the time the forum was created and i was in favor of it's creation. Both times Ben posted for the creation of the forum in the "New Forums" area, i voted in favor of it. the whole idea for the forum was that those who were post-charismatic could have a place to go to in which they could solidify what they believed in, not to have a place where they could go to bash WOF.

Post-Charismatic is a positive name for a forum, and it has the advantage of being a recognized movement within the church itself. But the whole thrust of the sub-forum should be to gather together and work out what they DO believe in, stated in positive terms, not to spend time grousing about the beliefs of others.

as it is now something permanent must be done.
We have tried to co-exist together within the same forum, and we have tried having our separate sub forums. We have even tried sharing a debate forum. And finally we have tried periods of enforced posting within the main forum whereby neither group could post about the other. None of those solutions have had the desired result of bringing us together in Christian harmony with each other.
the situation beteween the two groups is at a stalemate and does not reflect a positive image of what our attitude towards each other should be.

If we shared the same basic beliefs we could get along. the problem is we don't share basic beliefs, and we differ widely on a number of substantial doctrines. As has been said before, we are two very different families being forced to share the same house.

it is time for a change. And this would be my proposal:
1. keep the present WOF sub forum, but give it full forum status.
2. keep the non-WOF sub forum, giving it full forum status.
3. change the name of the non-WOF forum to Post Charismatic.
4. delete both the present day main forum (SF/C) and the debate forum entirely.

with that done i believe that it will cut back dramatically on the reports generated, restore peace to both forums, increase traffic to both forums, and give all of us a chance to move forward.

Simon Peter said:

This is one of the worst posts I've ever read at CF. I don't even know where to begin.

You cannot be serious?



.

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I bet you'd like to get rid of it woudn't you?

But yes,I am serious.
As I said before, unless you are a victim you may not see it or may not want to see it. If you are a perp then you likely will not see it.
Sounds like you think you are a victim here? Imagine seeing dozens of posts like this posted in an area where you are not even allowed to respond? The mod here has been gracious enough to open this dialog. This could not happen in the non forum because we are not even allowed to post the simple response that you have made here. Imagine finding posts and being equally outraged, but being denied the right to respond under penalty of infraction. The outrage you feel is what we endure ALL THE TIME. Peole can say virtually anything they want in the non forum. ANYTHING! WoFer have been compared to Jim Jones, David Koresh, and every other crazy in the bin. ( I do not recall you being outraged when such accusations and false comparisons have been made). Nobody is allowed to call them out. I have seen some third party types (who were not WoF) come in and question some of the things beings said. I have even seen a couple regulars to non-wof step up and question some of the more radical threads/posts. So it is not just me or the other "paraniod" WoFers. Others see it too.
If all the offending threads have not been removed, perhaps that audit is in order.

JimfromOhio said:

Of course I am not innocent and you are not innocent in this department either. And yes, you could have toned things down and this would have been avoided.

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why are you pushing buttons now? Did you read the whole post or just pick this one apart? I THINK I DID say I was NOT innocent...did you miss that? YOU could of toned things down and stopped pushing buttons. Jim, you like to play innocent and when that doesn't work the martyr.

pdudgeon said:

Quote for truth. I was also on staff at the time the forum was created and i was in favor of it's creation. Both times Ben posted for the creation of the forum in the "New Forums" area, i voted in favor of it. the whole idea for the forum was that those who were post-charismatic could have a place to go to in which they could solidify what they believed in, not to have a place where they could go to bash WOF.

Post-Charismatic is a positive name for a forum, and it has the advantage of being a recognized movement within the church itself. But the whole thrust of the sub-forum should be to gather together and work out what they DO believe in, stated in positive terms, not to spend time grousing about the beliefs of others.

as it is now something permanent must be done.
We have tried to co-exist together within the same forum, and we have tried having our separate sub forums. We have even tried sharing a debate forum. And finally we have tried periods of enforced posting within the main forum whereby neither group could post about the other. None of those solutions have had the desired result of bringing us together in Christian harmony with each other.
the situation beteween the two groups is at a stalemate and does not reflect a positive image of what our attitude towards each other should be.

If we shared the same basic beliefs we could get along. the problem is we don't share basic beliefs, and we differ widely on a number of substantial doctrines. As has been said before, we are two very different families being forced to share the same house.

it is time for a change. And this would be my proposal:
1. keep the present WOF sub forum, but give it full forum status.
2. keep the non-WOF sub forum, giving it full forum status.
3. change the name of the non-WOF forum to Post Charismatic.
4. delete both the present day main forum and the debate forum entirely.

with that done i believe that it will cut back dramatically on the reports generated, restore peace to both forums, and give all of us a chance to move forward.

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I like your recommendations.

disciple-ofjesus said:

why are you pushing buttons now? Did you read the whole post or just pick this one apart? I THINK I DID say I was NOT innocent...did you miss that? YOU could of toned things down and stopped pushing buttons. Jim, you like to play innocent and when that doesn't work the martyr.

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All I am doing is responding to your posts in my defense.

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JimB said:

.

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JimfromOhio said:

All I am doing is responding to your posts in my defense.

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yep, and it is all in the attitude. I am not the only one that sees through your act of "innocence". Can you admit YOU were wrong? Nope. You proved that.

pdudgeon said:

it is time for a change. And this would be my proposal:
1. keep the present WOF sub forum, but give it full forum status.
2. keep the non-WOF sub forum, giving it full forum status.
3. change the name of the non-WOF forum to Post Charismatic.
4. delete both the present day main forum and the debate forum entirely.

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This would be very much like when I put my son in one room and my daughter in another when they won't play nice together. This doesn't create "peace". It creates silent separation. When I really see peace is when my son and daughter sit down and play together.

Maybe I'm weird in that I enjoy discussing things with people who don't believe just like I do. I like being challenged, and many of the debates I've had here at CF have been integral to the growth in my relationship with God. That's why I like having both forums. There are times when people want like-minded fellowship, and then there are times that you want a different perspective. That's the one, very good thing that the SF/C forum provides.

I don't think drastic change in forum structuring is what's needed. I think a change in our hearts and in the way we address each other is needed.

pdudgeon said:

it is time for a change. And this would be my proposal:
1. keep the present WOF sub forum, but give it full forum status.
2. keep the non-WOF sub forum, giving it full forum status.
3. change the name of the non-WOF forum to Post Charismatic.
4. delete both the present day main forum (SF/C) and the debate forum entirely.

with that done i believe that it will cut back dramatically on the reports generated, restore peace to both forums, increase traffic to both forums, and give all of us a chance to move forward.

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That doesn't look too bad but why would you want to delete the SF/C forum? Why not do what I suggested and rename it the Charismatic forum? Under what you suggest we charismatics would have no forum. Why would you want a Post Charismatic Forum but no Charismatic Forum?

Everything you said there I agree with except instead of deleting this main forum you rename it the charismatic forum.

I wouldn't mind renaming 'non-WOF' to something else. I can see some here have an issue with what that really means, and I've seen some confusion from others from time to time.

probinson said:

This would be very much like when I put my son in one room and my daughter in another when they won't play nice together. This doesn't create "peace". It creates silent separation. When I really see peace is when my son and daughter sit down and play together.

Maybe I'm weird in that I enjoy discussing things with people who don't believe just like I do. I like being challenged, and many of the debates I've had here at CF have been integral to the growth in my relationship with God. That's why I like having both forums. There are times when people want like-minded fellowship, and then there are times that you want a different perspective. That's the one, very good thing that the SF/C forum provides.

I don't think drastic change in forum structuring is what's needed. I think a change in our hearts and in the way we address each other is needed.

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For a change. I do agree with you.

JimfromOhio said:

I have had my own experiences with WOF as well. Even one of them called me a "bad Christian" and other names (but that was more than 3 years ago or so).

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Now imagine a subforum set up where others can do this with impunity. They can call you anything they want. They can compare you to anyone they want. They can assign things to you that you never said. You cannot respond. You cannot defend yourself or your friends. You even show your face in there and you get reported. And the way the rules are set up, you will get infractions for doing so.
Now you get the picture.

didaskalos said:

Now imagine a subforum set up where others can do this with impunity. They can call you anything they want. They can compare you to anyone they want. They can assign things to you that you never said. You cannot respond. You cannot defend yourself or your friends. You even show your face in there and you get reported. And the way the rules are set up, you will get infractions for doing so.
Now you get the picture.

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Why are some of you (not just you) going off the topic? Let me out of this and focus on the topic.

lismore said:

Hi Yitzchak

Those are not the main distinctions between Charismatic/Pentecostal and WOF in my experience.

The distinctions lie in such teachings as 'positive confession', 'little gods/little christs', 'pastoral infallibility', 'financial seeds', 'shunning negative people'. All teachings I have sat through.

Also in my personal experience of a WOF church was being told not to read the bible on your own, because parts of it were 'negative', instead listen to faith tapes. I found that to be incredibly wierd.

Then there was being told that your words have the same creative power as God's words!?!

Buying anointed objects was another one.

While I accept that WOF is a wide movement and not all WOF members here will believe these things, or even know what I'm talking about, I believe there are huge differences between WOF and non-WOF. And I dont want to debate these things, because nothing will change the fact that I had to sit through them. Even after 45 pages of debate, it will still be my testimony.

God Bless You

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Thank you for answering my question. The church I go to is not word of faith. Our church takes the view that we major on the majors and minor on the minors. We leave room for people to walk out the minor issues of the faith in the way they feel led as long as it doesn't get into the major doctrines of the faith.

I have heard of sowing financial seeds but I have always figured that it is a personal preference on how much we give and how. I figure the major issue there is we are to give generously and with a good attitude. Our church phrases it that we are to give as the bible instructs us to and as we are led by The Holy Spirit to give. That leaves room for individual interpretation on issues like tithing and seed faith or whatever. What unites us on the issue as a church is we want to follow what we believe God is telling us on an individual level from a sincere heart. We know God will bless us and there does seem to be a blessing in doing good works. But it is also not right to be presumptous about what we think God has to do.

My pastor would get a good chuckle out of Pastoral infallibility. He preaches the word of God to the best of his ability. But we all know he is not prefect. Again the bible does say some things such as give honor due where honor is due and that we are to have a respect for elders in the church. But it is left up to individual conscience how the details of that are walked out. Our pastor always says if we think something he said is not right then come and discuss it with him and we can sit down together and hash it out.

Some parts of the bible are negative , especially some of the Old Testament passages. It is wise to handle those passages with sensitivity. It reminds me of when I was doing the children's church and we did a skit/play in front of the church. There was a scene in the play where one of the children around 10 years old was playing the role of the preacher. When we were rehearsing the play the line for that part simply said read a bible passage so we just had him randomly read passages. The day of the play he was nervous and could not remember which passage and I had told him it didn't really matter which passage. So he randomly opens it to a passage with one of these Old Testament passages and reads it in his most serious voice and expression...

Nah 3:1 Doom to the crime capital! Nineveh, city of murder and treachery,
Nah 3:2 here is your fate-- cracking whips, churning wheels; galloping horses, roaring chariots;
Nah 3:3 cavalry attacking, swords and spears flashing; soldiers stumbling over piles of dead bodies.
Nah 3:4 You were nothing more than a prostitute using your magical charms and witchcraft to attract and trap nations.
Nah 3:5 But I, the LORD All-Powerful, am now your enemy. I will pull up your skirt and let nations and kingdoms stare at your nakedness.
Nah 3:6 I will cover you with garbage, treat you like trash, and rub you in the dirt.
Nah 3:7 Everyone who sees you will turn away and shout, "Nineveh is done for! Is anyone willing to mourn or to give her comfort?"

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Reads it and slams the bible shut and says "amen" . It was one of those moments where Everyone's mouth was hanging open in shock. But everyone had a laugh about it after. People were teasing me about it for months after. They would joke and say my children's church sure had tougher preaching than the adult church.

Shunning seems to be an unfortunate part of many churches and families. I am sorry to hear you were wounded.


It is always difficult to put the extremes into context in a church. We want a church that is alive and relevant. The bible is full of examples of strange and wonderful things. I have children and used to work with children's church and I have always wondered if God sees us in the same way we see our children when they take big issues and look at it through their eyes.

When my sons were very young , we had a series of revival meetings at our church where people were falling over during prayer times. They called it being slain in the spirit. Anyway, one day my two boys are playing after one of the services and they are pretending to punch each other complete with sound effects , Ugh , pow , argh . The one says to the other I will be the angel and you be the guy getting prayed for. I'm going to smack you around and knock you unconcious. Pretends to whack him and the other one does his best impression of one of the church people falling over. So my one son asks the other," How do you suppose that the angels smack all these people around and knock them unconcious and they never get hurt or bruised up ? "The other one thinks for a minute and answers " I guess that is the miracle of it ". They both look at each other and say wow. Then the one boy says " what do you think those people did that God sent those angels to punish them lie that ? ". The other one answers " I bet they were doing something a lot worse than talking during church , I sure hope I never do anything that bad that God has to knock me unconcious for it ." It was funny to listen to small children try to work out theology to make sense of what they witnessed.

Another time my daughter was young and we had gone to visit a very strict Mennonite church. While there , one of the other little girls from the church had told her that her mommy told her that people go to hell if they have television. After in the car ride home , my daughter says " Daddy , i'm sure glad we are not Mennonites. " So I said , why is that ? She said " because God is really really strict with them. He sends them to hell if they have television. But God allows us to have television. I'm glad God is not strict with us like He is with them ." Theology lesson from a 7 year old.

But then we grow up and think we have a handle on these complex issues. We figure because we know a little about something , we have it all figured out. We might be looking at issues from our perspective and see it differently down the road when we grow a little bit.

I visited a word of faith church a few times and it was a positive experience. We have had a few people in our church that used to be word of faith and we try to celebrate their strong areas and let them have their own opinion on areas where we disagree. Sometimes they tell me to watch my words and be more positive. I take it as meant from a heart that wants to help me. But that is how we handle people from every backround. We major on the majors and minor on the minors.

It is just my opinion , but I think that one of the drawbacks of having these specialized churches that emphasize a few things is it can lead to extremes. People all agree and egg each other on to be even more extreme. When these different views are mixed together in one church it levels things out a little. There is a guy in our church who is so much into evangelism that he would be glad to cancel sunday morning church and the whole congregation walk downtown and witness all morning. William Booth would like this guy. I guess he could go join the salvation army or be a missionary. Maybe he will one day. But we don't dispise each other for our differences.
I figure we help round each other out a little. I don't take it as offense when he says extreme things to me or others about witnessing. I know it is his passion and he is just trying to get me to understand how important it is.

The downside of churches forming out of agreement on just a few issues is it can become like one of those frankenstien movies where this angry crowd with pitchforks is chasing you when a stranger comes to town who disagrees. That can happen in any denomination. Thankfully it is rare that it goes to that extreme.