Why Two Opposites In This Forum?

[pdudgeon]

I'm sorry, but if you are that bent on having your own forum away from all the rest of the charismatics, then why don't you create your own instead of forcing what you want done on everyone else?

There are more than four groups represented here. If there's an "us vs. them" mentality, then I suggest it's coming from the people continuing to insist on having the forum split further.

two very good questions!

first, at least 8 other stand-alone forums have already been created when nothing was done here to solve the initial problem several years ago, and they are doing well, thank you very much.

But that does not solve the on-going problem here. and it also continually bleeds traffic away from this forum, when members get disgusted with the fighting and leave.
that bleeding should be a concern to the owner. His bottom line goal should be to keep people happy and posting here on Cf, and growing the forums.

the 4 groups here are Spirit-filled, Charismatic, non-WOF, and WOF. Pentecostals already have their own separate home forum.

so if you don't belong to one of the groups mentioned above, which group do you believe is missing?

 

[msbojingles]

What about a standalone congregational forum for WOF and another single standalone forum for Charismatic, pentecostal etc.

I, for one, would not prefer a stand alone. After reading a thread about this very thing on the other charismatic forum, most of them would also not prefer a stand alone.

Creating a larger division will not resolve the issues. The subject for concern is the few people insisting on their way being right. Those that continue to make jabs at one another on either side will likely continue to do so no matter where you put a forum or how many are created.

The truth is, most "spirit filled/charismatic" christians share mingling views of all kinds of different faith groups. I don't fit into a specific, single one here, but share many of the views of most of the people here. I like all the different people here and want to hear different views.

I just don't see how splitting anything is going to solve the problem. It's just hacking at dead fruit. You're going to experience the same problems anywhere because it's a people problem, not a doctrine problem. If we really want change then it has to start with us - not everyone else.

Should what some of you are proposing happen, I, for one (which may not matter to anyone, and if that's the case, then it is what it is), will probably not come back here at all (under this alias or my sock). I don't want that to happen. I would rather deal with our differences than run around to several different forums to talk to people. Actually, I just wouldn't. I'd wager that several other people wouldn't, either.

 

[Simon Peter]

Ok, so say we move WoF from under this umbrella and it becomes it's own full congregational forum. But does that take care of what people consider the WoF bashing? Because congregations can talk about other faith groups. I mean they should be following all board rules, but Catholics can talk about Baptists, or Baptists can talk about Catholic theology, etc.

Also, if there is a separate WoF congregation, does that mean then WoF would not post here in Spirit-Filled? Or would still want to post here?

I don't think completely separating the groups is the answer.

I think most people want a common area where discussion and debate can take place.

The main issue appears to be that WoF doesn't want their doctrine to be 'bashed' in the non-WoF forum.
WoF need to understand that freedom of speech is the first amendment right for a reason. Free speech must be protected at all costs, up to slandererous personal attacks, which are already against CF rules!

The main problem is WoF being overly sensitive to their doctrine being questioned.

As you pointed out, the Catholics and Baptists are free to bash each others doctrines.

A secondary WoF complaint is the non-WoF name. Again, I believe in self-determination. WoF doesn't own the trademark on WoF.

non-WoF were forced to use that name because the original 'Charismatic' label was also claimed by WoF. I don't think it's fair that WoF claims both names.

Personally, I would agree to drop the 'non-WoF' name if we could use the 'Charismatic' name. So it's a fare tradeoff, we drop the non-WoF, WoF drop the Charismatic (they may still call themselves charismatic, but we would use the forum title).

In which case the forums may look like this:

* Spirit-filled (Where all three groups discuss, debate)

*Pentecostal
*WoF
*Charismatic (with a non-WoF statement of faith)



peace,
Simon

 

[he4rty]

I have to agree with some of the posters here, I would not like to see the forums split. I enjoy the diversity in here and have learnt much from both sides.

I recall when the Catholic Charismatic subforum was moved to become part of the Catholic Forum, Reasons similar to this I believe, we lost some good posters and although they do still post on CF, we do not benefit from there fellowship here anymore.

I can see the same happening here, we will all go to our seperate forums, with the intent of keeping in touch and fellowshiping with each other but eventual that will stop.
And Instead of One Active forum you'll probably end up with four mediocre forums that don't have much traffic and people will just go look else where.

 

[Simon Peter]

the 4 groups here are Spirit-filled, Charismatic, non-WOF, and WOF. Pentecostals already have their own separate home forum.

This is not correct.

There are three groups here:

*Pentecostal
*WoF
*non-WoF

All three have their own forum
All three are 'Spirit-Filled'

Pentecostals do not typically call themselves 'Charismatic', unless they are confused about the history of the terms/movements.

Historically WoF came out of the Pentecostal movement, so they are more likely to be Pentecostal than Charismatic. But plenty of Charismatics joined WoF, and many WoF now use the name Charismatic to describe themselves.

By default, Non-WoF are really 'Charismatic', because if they're not Pentecostal, and not WoF...
and the origins of the Charismatic movement did not include the prosperity gospel, and was obviously separate from Pentecostalism.



peace,
Simon

 

[SavedByGrace3]

If you consider E.W.Kenyon as the father of WoF, then the original WoF movement was not even Charismatic. There is no evidence that Kenyon ever spoke in tongues or considered the gifts of the spirit as for today.
In one of his books he said tongues was the ability to learn new languages.
Since Hagin and so many Pentecostal and Charismatics have picked up the WoF teachings, they naturally added the Spirit Filled aspect to the WoF and this is what we see now. But this is not what Kenyon brought out.

This is not correct.

There are three groups here:

*Pentecostal
*WoF
*non-WoF

All three have their own forum
All three are 'Spirit-Filled'

Pentecostals do not typically call themselves 'Charismatic', unless they are confused about the history of the terms/movements.

Historically WoF came out of the Pentecostal movement, so they are more likely to be Pentecostal than Charismatic. But plenty of Charismatics joined WoF, and many WoF now use the name Charismatic to describe themselves.

By default, Non-WoF are really 'Charismatic', because if they're not Pentecostal, and not WoF...
and the origins of the Charismatic movement did not include the prosperity gospel, and was obviously separate from Pentecostalism.



peace,
Simon

 

[Mobiosity]

I have wondered for awhile now why we have WOF and non WOF, I( know of no other faith group that has that. There is no Baptist and non Baptist, so does this mean we had better tighten the definitions for this area?

The two groups are necessary because each side thinks the other is wrong.

Much the reason for Catholic, Methodist, Lutheran, Messianic, etc. Each interpret parts of Scripture differently and think the others are wrong, crazy, sinful, etc.

 

[Simon Peter]

If you consider E.W.Kenyon as the father of WoF, then the original WoF movement was not even Charismatic. There is no evidence that Kenyon ever spoke in tongues or considered the gifts of the spirit as for today.
In one of his books he said tongues was the ability to learn new languages.
Since Hagin and so many Pentecostal and Charismatics have picked up the WoF teachings, they naturally added the Spirit Filled aspect to the WoF and this is what we see now. But this is not what Kenyon brought out.

Well WoF constantly refer to Hagin as the "father of the WoF movement", not Kenyon. And as we all know, Hagin was a Pentecostal.

Or do you guys now call Kenyon "daddy Kenyon" or "Papa Kenyon" ?


peace,
Simon

 

[pdudgeon]

This is not correct.

There are three groups here:

*Pentecostal
*WoF
*non-WoF

All three have their own forum
All three are 'Spirit-Filled'

Pentecostals do not typically call themselves 'Charismatic', unless they are confused about the history of the terms/movements.

Historically WoF came out of the Pentecostal movement, so they are more likely to be Pentecostal than Charismatic. But plenty of Charismatics joined WoF, and many WoF now use the name Charismatic to describe themselves.

By default, Non-WoF are really 'Charismatic', because if they're not Pentecostal, and not WoF...
and the origins of the Charismatic movement did not include the prosperity gospel, and was obviously separate from Pentecostalism.



peace,
Simon

check the title of the forum. it says "Spirit-Filled/Charismatic" does it not?

Spirit-Filled are those members who believe in one baptism which includes the in-filling of the Holy Ghost. they believe that the gifts are for today, but they may or may not personally have or use them. often they come from main line denominations, but the Holy Spirit may not be often discussed there, or only in passing. So they come here to learn more.
these are the people that your division would exclude.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Well WoF constantly refer to Hagin as the "father of the WoF movement", not Kenyon. And as we all know, Hagin was a Pentecostal.

Or do you guys now call Kenyon "daddy Kenyon" or "Papa Kenyon" ?


peace,
Simon

Sometimes Kenyon is referred to as the grandfather of the WoF movement.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Sometimes Kenyon is referred to as the grandfather of the WoF movement.

This is what separates WOF and the rest of Christianity (or Charismatics). Highest essential theological issues would include those doctrines most central and essential to the Christian faith which follows are secondaries.

Secondary doctrines are distinguished from the central and essential by the fact that believing Christians may disagree on the secondary issues, though this disagreement will create significant boundaries between believers.

 

[probinson]

By default, Non-WoF are really 'Charismatic', because if they're not Pentecostal, and not WoF...
and the origins of the Charismatic movement did not include the prosperity gospel, and was obviously separate from Pentecostalism.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm a Charismatic, Pentecostal, Spirit-filled, WoF believer. Actually, the more I post here, the more I realize I'm a Christian mutt, as far as predefined labels go.

As much as you might like to label everybody and stick them in their respective corners, a relationship with God doesn't allow for the rigidity necessary for a man-made system of labels.

 

[he4rty]

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm a Charismatic, Pentecostal, Spirit-filled, WoF believer. Actually, the more I post here, the more I realize I'm a Christian mutt, as far as predefined labels go.

As much as you might like to label everybody and stick them in their respective corners, a relationship with God doesn't allow for the rigidity necessary for a man-made system of labels.

So we should just scrap all the sub forums and just have one big happy family.

You know all this nit picking reminds me of my kids, they fight and argue with each other alot of the time, yet if an outsider was to try to hurt either one of them the other would be there like a shot to protect them.

I see similarities with the above to this forum, we nit pick at each other just as children do, yet I'm convinced if an outsider came in and tried to hurt anyone of us we would all be there ready to protect.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

This is what separates WOF and the rest of Christianity (or Charismatics). Highest essential theological issues would include those doctrines most central and essential to the Christian faith which follows are secondaries.

Secondary doctrines are distinguished from the central and essential by the fact that believing Christians may disagree on the secondary issues, though this disagreement will create significant boundaries between believers.

Lets use the word "distinguishes WOF from" instead of "separates WOF".
WoF is not separate from Christianity.

 

[Simon Peter]

Sometimes Kenyon is referred to as the grandfather of the WoF movement.

Kenyon was Methodist, so perhaps we should call John Wesley the Father of the WoF movement. Wesley was a Protestant so perhaps we should call Luther the grandfather.

My original point was that the WoF movement came through the Pentecostal branch, not the Charismatic branch.



peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm a Charismatic, Pentecostal, Spirit-filled, WoF believer. Actually, the more I post here, the more I realize I'm a Christian mutt, as far as predefined labels go.

As much as you might like to label everybody and stick them in their respective corners, a relationship with God doesn't allow for the rigidity necessary for a man-made system of labels.

Don't worry yourself Pete, my bubble is not burst.

I didn't invent the labeling system. And we are all Mutts. But even a mutt can decide where they feel most at home.

So what's your solution then?

Do you think we should just have ONE BIG 'SF Mutts' forum?



peace,
Simon

 

[probinson]

So what's your solution then?

I've already given my solution, but some people feel it is "unrealistic" and a "pipe dream" for people who profess to be Spirit-filled to actually have evidence of the fruits of the Spirit displayed in their lives.

So, I guess whatever the staff does to try and force people to "get along" (since it's apparently untenable to suggest that Spirit-filled, adult believers could actually address one another with Love and respect without being forced to do so by the mods), be it separating or restructuring forums, will be the "solution".

 

[JimfromOhio]

Here's a good example of the current debate between two groups.

God the HEALER

 

[meh]

Ok...so these are my observations so far....

I've asked some people before if there should be a WoF congregation. Some say yes- then we get a bunch of others saying no. So that's why one hasn't been created. I get close to asking if we can make it its own group, but it seems the do not create get more 'votes' so I don't go ahead with pushing for it. And that's also what I see in this thread. We've got some I've long respected and admired who want a separate forum. We've got many others who say no. So frankly I really don't know what the majority want at this point. I'm not even sure a poll would do the trick, because not everyone will vote, some won't see it in time, etc. So you've all got me totally flummoxed on that one

Second observation- and these may or may not be true, they are just my opinions. But it seems to me the main issue is WoF is seen as being 'bashed' by some, while others see it simply as debating the doctorines. That isn't going to change if there are two groups. One group is going to still not like WoF and post about that.

Third- and I preface this by saying I'm not anywhere near perfect. I can be arrogant and rude and pushy and obnoxious. So I don't think I'm better than anyone. But it seems like some in this forum don't treat each other very well. We get a lot of reports out of here about flaming and what-not. Like probinson said, staff can 'force' the issue. We can crack down hard. People would probably end up getting banned if they didn't change their posting styles and comments. We can do that. But it doesn't fix the problem. It just scoots it off to the side out of the way for awhile.

This used to be a really thriving forum. I wish it could be again. But I don't know how to solve this as people are allowed to discuss their issues with other denominations or theologies. So the only solution I see is if nobody is allowed to debate against WoF. But I'm not sure that's fair.

 

[probinson]

Here's a good example of the current debate between two groups.

God the HEALER

Indeed.

This post in particular illustrates why there is such a problem. There are a handful of people in this forum who absolutely refuse to listen to what people actually say, and instead post against their own preconceptions. In doing so, they accuse people of saying things they've never said, and believing things that NO ONE believes.

You can't have rational discussions with people like this. They absolutely refuse to listen to what you have to say, and would rather tell you what you believe. Heck, just last year I had a member running around the forum telling everyone that I denied the Trinity, despite the fact that I explicitly and repeatedly told them directly that I believed in the Trinity.

That's not "debate" or "discussion". It's dishonesty and bearing false witness, and there is FAR too much of it in this forum.