Why Theistic Evolution?

[kiwichristian]

Hey all,

Why is it that some people believe that God was a guiding force behind evolution?
If people are christians, and they believe the bible, surely they would believe what the bible says??
This thing about theistic evolution really confuses me

 

[wblastyn]

Hey all,

Why is it that some people believe that God was a guiding force behind evolution?
If people are christians, and they believe the bible, surely they would believe what the bible says??
This thing about theistic evolution really confuses me

We believe what God tells us in Creation, so with what we know from Creation we accept evolution as God's creative process and realise Genesis could not possibly be literal history, but rather a poem conveying the message that God created everything, but not HOW He created.

There is so much evidence from the various sciences supporting evolution ( http://www.talkorigins.org ) that for me to believe in creationism would be intellectually dishonest.

Why do you believe the earth is a sphere when the Bible supports a flat earth?

 

[kiwichristian]

It supports a flat earth?
I dont know. Where in the bible does it say that?

 

[kiwichristian]

Anyway, heres a link from a site that goes against Theistic Evolution. What do you think?

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c015.html

 

[wblastyn]

It supports a flat earth?
I dont know. Where in the bible does it say that?

Read this thread: http://www.christianforums.com/t48672

 

[kiwichristian]

Heres another link:

http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-111b.htm

 

[wblastyn]

Anyway, heres a link from a site that goes against Theistic Evolution. What do you think?

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c015.html

I've seen that before and here is the counter-arguement:

http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/10dangers.htm

 

[wblastyn]

Most Christians are uncomfortable with purely naturalistic evolution. The solution for many Christians has been to adopt theistic evolution, which is based on the idea that the God of the Bible employed an evolutionary process to create.

Actually, most Christians accept evolution.

Any listing of the attributes of God would include omnipotence, omniscience, loving, gracious, possessing forethought, and the desire for a relationship with man. Would this kind of God have used long ages of evolutionary development?

Since when has God done what we expect Him to do. Would any sane person have chosen a shepherd boy to fight a giant? No, but God did.

If God chose to create over millions of years then so be it. Using the logic of this article God is limited by creationism also, why did He have to take 6 days to create, then rest on the 7th? An omnipotent God resting!?!

Theistic evolution looks back to about four billion years ago when God brought just the right chemicals into the right order to form a single cell. This multiplied and mutated for over three billion years until He either allowed or caused them to evolve into two-celled organisms, then about 500 million years ago into marine invertebrates, such as clams, snails, trilobites, and flatworms.

Actually, I think most TE's believe Gd created the universe to create itself, so God did not bring all the chemicals together, the universe did it itself.

Over hundreds of millions of years, many types went extinct and were never seen by man. But the flatworm begat fish, then amphibians, then reptiles and birds, then mammals. They would live and die, mutate and go extinct. Some would eat the others. All were subject to disease and starvation. Some, like the dinosaurs, also passed into oblivion before man arrived. The fossil record provides ample evidence of their existence, suffering, and extinction long ago.

So? This is how it is today, why not back then?

Just a few million years ago there were upright-walking apes, then Homo erectus, and then Neandertals, "animals" who made tools, employed agriculture, utilized both religious implements and weapons, suffered from disease and malnutrition. They enjoyed music and flowers and art, but had no soul.

How do you know they had no soul?

Then, just a few thousand years ago, God made true man. He either created man from scratch or took a sub-human animal and gave it an eternal spirit. As He finished His work, He called it all "very good." God's creation could finally recognize His grace, respond in love, and give God the glory due His name.

No, evolution created man, so God created humans indirectly.

But was it all "very good"? Beneath Adam's feet would lay the fossils of billions of animals, many giving evidence of traumatic death. And who were the long extinct dinosaurs? Had God been experimenting, trying to find something He could call His image? Did He not know what He wanted? Was He not powerful enough to create it without so many missteps? If the creation and redemption of man was His purpose, why did He wait so long?

God said it was so it must have been.

God commanded the Hebrews to slaughter men, women and children, to rip out their wombs, etc, and you're surprised God would use all this natural death?

Maybe he was watching His creation grow. It's like how some people have pleasure from growing their own vegetables instead of buying them from a shop.

What missteps? Oh you mean like how God created animals just to help Adam but it turned out they were unsuitable?

A few billion years is nothing to an eternal God.

And why did He use the process of the extinction of the unfit to create? His very nature ultimately impelled Him, the Fit, to die for the unfit. In redemption, He would strongly denounce personal works as a method of salvation. Would He have used survival of the fittest as His method of creation and accept "glory" from His creation on this basis?

I never understand how someone can deny Natural Selection.

No, the righteous God revealed in Scripture would create just as described in Genesis One. Creation would be orderly and wise, with man and his walk with God the result. It would be deathless and sinless, compatible with the all powerful, Holy, life-giving Creator's label as "very good."

So now you're telling God how he should have created. Well, the writer must know better than God then.

 

[OldBadfish]

Actually, most Christians accept evolution.

Really? Got some official statistics?

Last I saw 57% of Catholics believed in evolution, and Catholicism is the major representative of Christians, followed closely by protestants whos evolution believing percentage would probably be pretty low.

 

[Jet Black]

I've seen that before and here is the counter-arguement:

http://freespace.virgin.net/karl_and.gnome/10dangers.htm

heh... this is an excellent debate

 

[OldBadfish]

So now you're telling God how he should have created. Well, the writer must know better than God then.

At least this view is consistent with the word, you by accepting evolution with nothing Holy to back it up is telling and teaching other Christians that YOU seem to know how God created, hell even the atheists agree creation cannot be falsified, man you need to take a step back and pray and make sure you're not teaching heresy, if God didn't tell you, then you have no reason to promote TE.

You roll your eyes at the bible, and again fail to show the fruit of the Spirit, why should anyone believe you?

God said it was so it must have been.

So here we have you contradicting yourself, by your logic here, if God said it was so it must have been, God said the bible was inspired, so it must be so right? God said that he created in 6 days, so it must be so right?

Whatever man.

 

[jhessel]

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/Ancient.Civ_Technol/neanderthal.nephilim.C14.html

article from a scientist that believes the nephelim are the Neanderthals

Genesis Chapter 6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants [nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The ancient manuscripts refer to a time 4,500 years ago, before the ancient Egyptian civilisation, when highly intelligent life forces from outside our universe were aware that the human race was beginning to multiply on this planet. They turned their attention to earth with the intention of controlling and colonising it. The human race at that time had a possible population of some 35 million * (see foot note 1) Click here to go to foot note 1. For certain calculated reasons they took this opportunity to move in on the Human estate with the objective of usurping it and bringing it under their control and domination.

Having an extremely high level of scientific knowledge, coming from a race millions of years older than the fairly new human race, they understood precisely how the human DNA functioned in the human make up. Engineering the transformation of their own makeup to assimilate the human form they took on physical bodies fashioned on their knowledge of the human DNA structure and cellular make up. Probably emphasising and enhancing in the process physical power and size, making themselves extremely impressive specimens * (see foot note 2 for manuscript referances). Click here to go to foot note 2.

There is no manuscript information as to how many went through this metamorphic change but possibly some thousands participated. They took pleasure in exercising control over the natural human population, cohabiting with the women, selecting the best for themselves without restriction. Probably meeting very little objection from husbands or other human males due to their impressive physical dominance.

Once these women had been impregnated and inseminated with their engineered sperm they became pregnant giving birth to children who were a hybrid half-caste race known as Nephilim. It is very likely that these hybrid individuals were sterile and did not breed.

2. Hybrid Sterility:

* To illustrate the existing natural laws, a Hybrid, strictly defined, is an offspring that is a cross between different species usually producing sterile hybrids; the male mule is the sterile offspring of a female horse and a male donkey. It is used in many parts of the world as a beast of burden because of its much greater body strength than its parents. It seems to excel both its parents in muscular endurance, surefootedness, and length of life. The hinny is the sterile hybrid offspring of the female donkey and the male horse.

Hybrids often have what is called hybrid vigour; they tend to be larger, faster growing, and healthier than their parents. Thus, mules are bred for their strength, superior to that of either parent. Ornamental plants are bred for their larger flowers; nearly all corn and tomatoes grown today are hybrids that bear much larger fruit than their parental stock.

 

[wblastyn]

At least this view is consistent with the word, you by accepting evolution with nothing Holy to back it up is telling and teaching other Christians that YOU seem to know how God created, hell even the atheists agree creation cannot be falsified, man you need to take a step back and pray and make sure you're not teaching heresy, if God didn't tell you, then you have no reason to promote TE.[/quopte]
We know part of how God created because we can see it in His creation.

Yes, creation cannot be falsified, but creationism can and has been.

You roll your eyes at the bible, and again fail to show the fruit of the Spirit, why should anyone believe you?

The rolling the eyes was for the irony in the statement, the article was saying God made missteps if He used evolutionl and I pointed out God made missteps in creationism by creating animals to help Adam but they were unsuitable.

So here we have you contradicting yourself, by your logic here, if God said it was so it must have been, God said the bible was inspired, so it must be so right? God said that he created in 6 days, so it must be so right?

God's Word is not always literal, He uses metaphors to describe Himself even, He says he is fire, a storm, etc. You don't literally believe God is fire or a storm now do you?

Why are you incapable of knowing the difference between non-literal and untrue?

Creationism doesn't make sense at all, why would a all-powerful God need to rest, why did he create man, then animals as his helper, but because they were unsuitable he created woman (oh but wait, Genesis 1 says God created animals first then man and woman at the same time, hmm ).

 

[wblastyn]

Really? Got some official statistics?

Last I saw 57% of Catholics believed in evolution, and Catholicism is the major representative of Christians, followed closely by protestants whos evolution believing percentage would probably be pretty low.

It's only in America and "Americanized" countries such as the UK that there are a lot of creationists, but anywhere else they are a minority, in countries such as Sweden you'd be laughed at even by Christians if you said you were a creationist.

It's not really surprising considering the things Americans do, like suing McDonalds because they are fat ("Only in America!").

 

[OldBadfish]

True. I guess we really don't know the mysteries of God, sorry for jumping on you. I know what you're saying.

We know part of how God created because we can see it in His creation.

We don't know for 100% sure if it was spontaneous or evolution, nobody does.

 

[kiwichristian]

I have to say, this is an interesting thread.
I agree with badfish, that we cant know 100%.
If we could be 100% sure on either spontaneous or evolution, then there would be no need to debate
We would all know what it would be then.

 

[OldBadfish]

Right kiwi, it is interesting to note that Gen 1 and 2 are compatible, it was explained elsewhere, preserving the possibility that the bible is inspired and spontaneous creation was Gods method.

 

[kiwichristian]

Right kiwi, it is interesting to note that Gen 1 and 2 are compatible, it was explained elsewhere, preserving the possibility that the bible is inspired and spontaneous creation was Gods method.

Unfortunately, not everyone believes that

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Right kiwi, it is interesting to note that Gen 1 and 2 are compatible, it was explained elsewhere, preserving the possibility that the bible is inspired and spontaneous creation was Gods method.

Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other if taken literally.

 

[kiwichristian]

Genesis 1 is about creation of earth, whereas Genesis 2 is about creation of man.