Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

[jerry kelso]

Show which scholars say what you say, sir. Hebrew Streams site was an independent scholar who without bias attended to this issue.

And every rabbi under this sun knows the concept which I proposed. <staff edit>

Whatever THAT meant. <staff edit>

THAT makes sense, sir. THEY conferred together and the HE of the THEY made man in THEIR image, sir. THEY is HE and HE is THEY sir. WE is I and US is HIM sir. <staff edit> WHY read a THEY into the HE sir? <staff edit>

HE is love or THEY are love sir? <staff edit>

nothead,

1. All you are doing is giving your opinion and conjecture.<staff edit>

2. There are plenty of different thoughts among the jews that some are right and others are not.

3. To imply that your one independent scholar covers the whole gammut of the context and implies he is the only one unbiased about the subject is <staff edit>.

4. I was tutored by an apostle that went to a Hebrew university and was personally tutored by a Rabbi. You act like only your teachers or people read are the only ones with any knowledge of the real truth and that is not the case.

5. The scribes and pharisees knew most of the truth and were liars and hypocrites and Jesus told them that. Jesus also said to the jewish people to do what they tell you to do which would be the truths of the law of Moses but don't do it the same way or with the same motive as they do to be more specific. Nothing wrong with giving alms but don't do it for show of which the leaders did and that is why they were a hypocrite. They were also hypocrites because they transgressed the commandments and made them of none effect which would be the illustration I just gave and because they added to the scriptures of which Jesus said they could not do and make it into the KOH.

<staff edit>
9. You think monotheism is simple to your position but that doesn't mean it is biblically true according to the scriptures.

10. Why don't you tell me what Paul meant when he said I die daily in context and in specifics with other scriptures <staff edit>Jerry kelso

 

[nothead]

nothead,

1. All you are doing is giving your opinion and conjecture.<staff edit>

<staff edit>IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE what scholars say about the etymology of ELOHIM sir. The CONSIDERATION that "elohim" is INTRINSICALLY plural in number of persons, is MOOT since the pronouns and verbs ATTENDING the noun are singular sir. <staff edit>

3. To imply that your one independent scholar covers the whole gammut of the context and implies he is the only one unbiased about the subject <staff edit>

I named TWO sir. Paul SUMNER is the author of the Hebrew Streams web site.

4. I was tutored by an apostle that went to a Hebrew university and was personally tutored by a Rabbi. You act like only your teachers or people read are the only ones with any knowledge of the real truth and that is not the case.

APOSTLE?? What MADE him an "apostle" sir? He CALLED himself one? OTHERS did? I was tutored by GOD sir. Is God an apostle sir? <staff edit>You SAY Jesus is a high priest but what argument is there for this meaning GOD, sir? <staff edit>

5. The scribes and pharisees knew most of the truth and were liars and hypocrites and Jesus told them that. Jesus also said to the jewish people to do what they tell you to do which would be the truths of the law of Moses but don't do it the same way or with the same motive as they do to be more specific. Nothing wrong with giving alms but don't do it for show of which the leaders did and that is why they were a hypocrite. They were also hypocrites because they transgressed the commandments and made them of none effect which would be the illustration I just gave and because they added to the scriptures of which Jesus said they could not do and make it into the KOH.

What does THIS have to do with the DEITY of Jesus sir?

<staff edit> I KNOW Shema is given the HIGHEST CREEDENCE ON the map sir.

<staff edit>

9. You think monotheism is simple to your position but that doesn't mean it is biblically true according to the scriptures.

God MADE the Monotheistic Principle both numero UNO in priority AND easily to assimilate and digest. NONE of the Ten OR the Shema are hard to UNDERSTAND sir. IN fact it is SPECIFICALLY said sir in Deut 31:

Deut 31

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the Lord your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

What was the LAW then, as they crossed the River Jordan, sir? The TEN and the SHEMA, sir. To children sir.

10. Why don't you tell me what Paul meant when he said I die daily in context and in specifics with other scriptures<staff edit> Jerry kelso

FIFTH time you requested this after I ADDRESSED it twice. <staff edit> Dying DAILY is figurative for SACRIFICING daily. In other words IT'S GOTTA HURT or you ain't doin' much <staff edit>.

 

[jerry kelso]

<staff edit>IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE what scholars say about the etymology of ELOHIM sir. The CONSIDERATION that "elohim" is INTRINSICALLY plural in number of persons, is MOOT since the pronouns and verbs ATTENDING the noun are singular sir. <staff edit>



I named TWO sir. Paul SUMNER is the author of the Hebrew Streams web site.



APOSTLE?? What MADE him an "apostle" sir? He CALLED himself one? OTHERS did? I was tutored by GOD sir. Is God an apostle sir? Do you even know the difference sir? You SAY Jesus is a high priest but what argument is there for this meaning GOD, sir? <staff edit>



What does THIS have to do with the DEITY of Jesus sir?



<staff edit> I KNOW Shema is given the HIGHEST CREEDENCE ON the map sir. <staff edit>



God MADE the Monotheistic Principle both numero UNO in priority AND easily to assimilate and digest. NONE of the Ten OR the Shema are hard to UNDERSTAND sir. IN fact it is SPECIFICALLY said sir in Deut 31:

Deut 31

10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,

11 When all Israel is come to appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.

12 Gather the people together, men and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the Lord your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

13 And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the Lord your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

What was the LAW then, as they crossed the River Jordan, sir? The TEN and the SHEMA, sir. To children sir.






FIFTH time you requested this after I ADDRESSED it twice.<staff edit> Dying DAILY is figurative for SACRIFICING daily. In other words IT'S GOTTA HURT or you ain't doin' much <staff edit>.

nothead,

1. I already talked about how to solve a paradox and you have not tried to debunk it properly.

2. If one scripture states one member of the Godhead and another states another member of the Godhead in another or puts more than one member in the Godhead in the same passage then that verse that shows a different member of the God head and more than one in the same passage over rides the one that says there is only one God. Hebrews 1:8-10 show two different members of the God head called God. God the father calls himself God and calls the Son God and the one who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens which were the work of his hands. So once again according to the scriptures and this is very simple which you seem to like with everything is that there is more than one member of the God head. <staff edit>

2. Sacrificing daily? Well, you are on the right trail, now can you finish the context of the passage and what you mean by sacrificing daily and the verse outside of the passage that is specific in agreement with 1 Corinthians 15:31.<staff edit> Jerry Kelso

 

[nothead]

nothead,

1. I already talked about how to solve a paradox and you have not tried to debunk it properly.

WHAT parodox sir? Show me where there IS one in Bible and we can go further. IDENTIFY it AT LEAST sir.

I go by cohesion of scripture since I believe it is divinely inspired sir. Not counting any INSERTS of which I consider only two known of, sir. For sure of, sir. Thank you sir.

2. If one scripture states one member of the Godhead and another states another member of the Godhead in another or puts more than one member in the Godhead in the same passage then that verse that shows a different member of the God head and more than one in the same passage over rides the one that says there is only one God. Hebrews 1:8-10 show two different members of the God head called God. God the father calls himself God and calls the Son God and the one who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens which were the work of his hands. So once again according to the scriptures and this is very simple which you seem to like with everything is that there is more than one member of the God head. It is funny you abandon your simple theory.

Gotta prove "Godhead" before you can make these statements ABOUT the "Godhead," sir. DO IT.

<staff edit>

 

[jerry kelso]

WHAT parodox sir? Show me where there IS one in Bible and we can go further. IDENTIFY it AT LEAST sir.

I go by cohesion of scripture since I believe it is divinely inspired sir. Not counting any INSERTS of which I consider only two known of, sir. For sure of, sir. Thank you sir.



Gotta prove "Godhead" before you can make these statements ABOUT the "Godhead," sir. DO IT.

<staff edit>

nothead,

1. <staff edit> 1 John 2:1-2 and 1 John 3:8-9 is such. One says a christian doesn't sin and the other says they can. I thought I said this to you and if not it was because I said it to another poster.

2. I believe all the bible is divinely inspired too.

3. God means deity and the supreme being but doesn't keep it from being more than one.

<staff edit>Correlating to sacrificing till it hurts? It depends on your exact thought of sacrificing till it hurts. What are you sacrificing till it hurts about. You are not being specific.
Let me ask you this question; the phrase I die daily, do you think it is talking about dying spiritually or dying to sin everyday or is it about physical resurrection? Or is it about physical resurrection and do you think you can die physically everyday? What particular scripture agrees with this passage. <staff edit> Jerry Kelso

 

[Hoghead1]

nothead,

1. <staff edit> 1 John 2:1-2 and 1 John 3:8-9 is such. One says a christian doesn't sin and the other says they can. I thought I said this to you and if not it was because I said it to another poster.

2. I believe all the bible is divinely inspired too.

3. God means deity and the supreme being but doesn't keep it from being more than one.

<staff edit>Correlating to sacrificing till it hurts? It depends on your exact thought of sacrificing till it hurts. What are you sacrificing till it hurts about. You are not being specific.
Let me ask you this question; the phrase I die daily, do you think it is talking about dying spiritually or dying to sin everyday or is it about physical resurrection? Or is it about physical resurrection and do you think you can die physically everyday? What particular scripture agrees with this passage. <staff edit> Jerry Kelso

Yes, but keep it from being more than one what?

 

[Hoghead1]

nothead,

1. I already talked about how to solve a paradox and you have not tried to debunk it properly.

2. If one scripture states one member of the Godhead and another states another member of the Godhead in another or puts more than one member in the Godhead in the same passage then that verse that shows a different member of the God head and more than one in the same passage over rides the one that says there is only one God. Hebrews 1:8-10 show two different members of the God head called God. God the father calls himself God and calls the Son God and the one who laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens which were the work of his hands. So once again according to the scriptures and this is very simple which you seem to like with everything is that there is more than one member of the God head. <staff edit>

2. Sacrificing daily? Well, you are on the right trail, now can you finish the context of the passage and what you mean by sacrificing daily and the verse outside of the passage that is specific in agreement with 1 Corinthians 15:31.<staff edit> Jerry Kelso

Yes, but you have yet to fully describe your concept of the Trinity and address issues such as tritheism. I think we should tend to our own house before we attack others.

 

[nothead]

<staff edit>

Maybe we both missed something here regarding your statements about dying daily sir. But I do feel you are trying to articulate something I got a greater handle upon.

Jesus did no more than Shema, and no less than Shema. He loved his God with ALL of his heart soul and might. And God did not make it EASY for him, in fact required the Cross OF him.

So too the disciples were martyred all but John historically and traditionally. Paul is actually speaking of something INTRINSIC to the Purpose and the Glory of God for all. Dying daily is no more COMPLICATED than doing Shema, loving YHWH Elohim. Jesus was Servant of the Living God and in my view who did Shema PERFECTLY to the extent of it. He loved God from his birth until his death. He loved and trusted his God from his mother's breast Psalm 22. And he KNEW that to love God would COST him everything he owned, everything he did and everything he desired. ALL just as Shema says.

So then <staff edit> Jesus BEING God makes no sense. God does not love HIMself with ALL of His heart soul and might. God may or may not SUFFER as God, certainly NOT like man does. God's Law is not for Himself, in other words, but for man. Shema does imply suffering, and dying, JUST the same things Jesus said in his OWN hard sayings and commands. If you do not hate mother and father, sister and brother and even your own life, you cannot be my disciple.
It is a SUPERNATURAL love which does come from the pentecostal baptism in Spirit. The jump and the LEAP to do Shema.
I see you LIST yourself as pentecostal sir. Now you know the PURPOSE and INTENT of God for us. This NEVER CHANGED from the time Shema was given. But only through the NEW COVENANT is this Shema potentiated in our lives. NOW we CAN love our God with all. The Circumcision of Heart IS this very thing the rebirth in Spirit Jesus told Nicodemus he must have.

And all of the stuff you have in your post is PART of this. To die daily in Christ is to DO Shema and IN CHRIST we do what Jesus did. Our destiny is to die daily, and suffer and hurt as Jesus did. The Spirit tells us of the LOVE of GOD in this testimony "Abba, Father." This LOVE is the IMPETUS for great things, the same SORT of thing Christ exemplified. IN LOVE we make ordinally God FIRST and this WILL sometimes abrogate other laws. Mother, father sister and brother, even our OWN LIFE is set aside for God. We are in the same DIMENSION and WORLD that Jesus inhabited, in Spirit. And if we know Shema ARTICULATED the Mystery of Christ is prayed for. TO DIE like Jesus did. And if not TO DIE to suffer as Jesus did. Love IMPLIES suffering and sacrifice, and if it don't hurt, you ain't dying. Jesus was the ONLY MAN to do Shema perfectly from the beginning of his life to the end. This is the Mystery of Christ. The REASON no man is righteous but one, and HE said his righteousness does NOT match God's. "Why do you call me good, only God is good." NOW he is advocate for us but not only ADVOCATE he is our IKON or IMAGE of a man who paved the way, who we emulate, who did Shema the way God intended for Adam, who is the supernatural CHANNEL to the Father.

So then you ain't wrong, but you also don't realize that all law is FULFILLED in Shema, in dying daily not for Jesus but for his God. IN CHRIST we die daily not FOR CHRIST. Stephen prayed to his Father FIRST and Mediator second. The identity of the Spirit or name it came in is Jesus, the one who came to Paul initially. But the ORIGINATOR of this Spirit is God the Father.
All law is FULFILLED in the New Covenant in Shema as the Umbrella Law over all other law. No, I am not BITTER over legalism. I just know so many of us are CONFUSED by the lesser laws. Even all of the things Paul said which implied Christianity was "apart from Law," is because he knew that the Pharisee view was this Law en toto including the lesser laws and the idea that only by perfectly doing ALL of them is a man sanctified. No, only by doing SHEMA is a man doing God's will. From Shema hangs all the Law and the prophets, along with the lesser Golden Rule.

Mt 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Deut 30:

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

[nothead]

<staff edit>

One of the most audacious but easily made mistakes is to consider Shema done FOR JESUS not for HIS GOD THE FATHER.
This is ONE of the considerations when a trinitarian says "the Shema was reconfigured."

WHY is this mistake easy to make. Well, since we go by what the translators say and don't consider the original languages. Consider this one sir which MIGHT in the English connote this idea, that Shema is done for Jesus now, or even more audaciously, for the Father and Son and Holy Spirit in EQUAL consideration.

2 Cor 4

11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Now consider the Koine:

aei aei G104 Adv ever gar gar G1063 Conj for hmeis hEmeis G2249 pp 1 Nom Pl WE oi hoi G3588 t_ Nom Pl m THE zwntes zOntes G2198 vp Pres Act Nom Pl m LIVING ones-living eis eis G1519 Prep INTO qanaton thanaton G2288 n_ Acc Sg m DEATH paradidomeqa paradidometha G3860 vi Pres Pas 1 Pl ARE-beING-BESIDE-GIVEN are-being-given-up For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus'sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 11 dia dia G1223 Prep THRU because-of ihsoun iEsoun G2424 n_ Acc Sg m JESUS ina hina G2443 Conj THAT kai kai G2532 Conj AND also h hE G3588 t_ Nom Sg f THE zwh zOE G2222 n_ Nom Sg f LIFE tou tou G3588 t_ Gen Sg m OF-THE ihsou iEsou G2424 n_ Gen Sg m JESUS fanerwqh phanerOthE G5319 vs Aor Pas 3 Sg MAY-BE-BEING-made-APPEAR may-be-being-manifested en en G1722 Prep IN th tE G3588 t_ Dat Sg f THE qnhth thnEtE G2349 a_ Dat Sg f DYing mortal sarki sarki G4561 n_ Dat Sg f FLESH hmwn hEmOn G2257 pp 1 Gen Pl OF-US.

DIA IESOUN means through, by the channel of, or possibly because of. Not FOR HIS SAKE. "Because of" is closest in meaning to "for the sake of" but does NOT mean FOR (Jesus).

BECAUSE OF Jesus we are being always delivered unto death, and the KJV expositors got this wrong FROM the idea (Trinity) that
brainwashed them, since the Paraclete sent was in the name of Jesus and BECAUSE of Jesus' own accompishments, God deemed the Holy Spirit operable unto ALL believers.

As far as the Resurrection of Jesus and the correlate resurrection of man in hope for the same destiny, Jerry...I agree this hope is PART of dying daily, since Jn 10 says what Jesus thought about his own "raising up."

Jn 10

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

For many this implies to them Jesus COULD raise himself up himself, although he was dead as a doornail. The Jn 2 passage is the only one which says Jesus will raise himself up "in three days." COHERENCE must consider the other 22 verses which says GOD will raise Jesus up, his Father. And most trins haggle 'til the cows come home, INSISTING Jesus' body or flesh only died and his spirit or other deity aspect raised him up, along with the other two "Partners of God."

What an equivocation you guys make. So many of the first and second gen saints do say GOD raised him, not he "raised himself." Actually Jn 10 tells the whole story. Jesus was INITIALLY raised by his Father and then he was able to raise himself AFTER the breath of life was breathed into him. He says it clearly here, that he was able to raise himself BY THE COMMAND OF HIS FATHER. But what WAS this command if we wanted to quote God?

Possibly "Jesus be raised." Or "Jesus have life." Or, "Jesus be quickened with life." Or somesuch.

I personally think this command was given WHEN Jesus was alive to hear it, beFORE he confessed this command in Jn 10. He KNEW this command so what was it quoted as?

I personally think this command was something like or near to: "Die for me on the Cross, and I will give you eternal life, my beloved."

And the CORRELATE command to US would be something like: "Die daily for me, and I have a special first death for you. One which glorifies me forever, as mine own Son did glorify me forever. And in reward I will give you ETERNAL life."

"Because you being IN my Son is exactly where I wanted you." (If you want to be more dramatic).

See how simple the gospel is sir? Not simple TO DO, but simple to understand. It DEMOLISHES the idea that the Cross FINISHES our faith. We can now go on and be happily atwittering, glad handing each other's backs, and eating drinking and being merry since the end is even more joyful. The MAINLINE consideration.

Consider this, John and James' mother asks for her sons to be at the left and right hands of JESUS in heaven. This event ALONE rebuts any idea that the Right Hand of God is God. THESE men were not considered to be potentially God EVEN IF THEY COULD be deemed worthy enough to sit so locatively close. First Jesus asks them if they were willing to die, which was his own "cup of destiny..."

Mk 10

38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Mt 20

22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

...and notice he did not say "are you willing to die FOR ME," but rather asking them if they were willing to die AS HE WAS, i.e. for the pure dee love for HIS God.

 

[jerry kelso]

Maybe we both missed something here regarding your statements about dying daily sir. But I do feel you are trying to articulate something I got a greater handle upon.

Jesus did no more than Shema, and no less than Shema. He loved his God with ALL of his heart soul and might. And God did not make it EASY for him, in fact required the Cross OF him.

So too the disciples were martyred all but John historically and traditionally. Paul is actually speaking of something INTRINSIC to the Purpose and the Glory of God for all. Dying daily is no more COMPLICATED than doing Shema, loving YHWH Elohim. Jesus was Servant of the Living God and in my view who did Shema PERFECTLY to the extent of it. He loved God from his birth until his death. He loved and trusted his God from his mother's breast Psalm 22. And he KNEW that to love God would COST him everything he owned, everything he did and everything he desired. ALL just as Shema says.

So then <staff edit> Jesus BEING God makes no sense. God does not love HIMself with ALL of His heart soul and might. God may or may not SUFFER as God, certainly NOT like man does. God's Law is not for Himself, in other words, but for man. Shema does imply suffering, and dying, JUST the same things Jesus said in his OWN hard sayings and commands. If you do not hate mother and father, sister and brother and even your own life, you cannot be my disciple.
It is a SUPERNATURAL love which does come from the pentecostal baptism in Spirit. The jump and the LEAP to do Shema.
I see you LIST yourself as pentecostal sir. Now you know the PURPOSE and INTENT of God for us. This NEVER CHANGED from the time Shema was given. But only through the NEW COVENANT is this Shema potentiated in our lives. NOW we CAN love our God with all. The Circumcision of Heart IS this very thing the rebirth in Spirit Jesus told Nicodemus he must have.

And all of the stuff you have in your post is PART of this. To die daily in Christ is to DO Shema and IN CHRIST we do what Jesus did. Our destiny is to die daily, and suffer and hurt as Jesus did. The Spirit tells us of the LOVE of GOD in this testimony "Abba, Father." This LOVE is the IMPETUS for great things, the same SORT of thing Christ exemplified. IN LOVE we make ordinally God FIRST and this WILL sometimes abrogate other laws. Mother, father sister and brother, even our OWN LIFE is set aside for God. We are in the same DIMENSION and WORLD that Jesus inhabited, in Spirit. And if we know Shema ARTICULATED the Mystery of Christ is prayed for. TO DIE like Jesus did. And if not TO DIE to suffer as Jesus did. Love IMPLIES suffering and sacrifice, and if it don't hurt, you ain't dying. Jesus was the ONLY MAN to do Shema perfectly from the beginning of his life to the end. This is the Mystery of Christ. The REASON no man is righteous but one, and HE said his righteousness does NOT match God's. "Why do you call me good, only God is good." NOW he is advocate for us but not only ADVOCATE he is our IKON or IMAGE of a man who paved the way, who we emulate, who did Shema the way God intended for Adam, who is the supernatural CHANNEL to the Father.

So then you ain't wrong, but you also don't realize that all law is FULFILLED in Shema, in dying daily not for Jesus but for his God. IN CHRIST we die daily not FOR CHRIST. Stephen prayed to his Father FIRST and Mediator second. The identity of the Spirit or name it came in is Jesus, the one who came to Paul initially. But the ORIGINATOR of this Spirit is God the Father.
All law is FULFILLED in the New Covenant in Shema as the Umbrella Law over all other law. No, I am not BITTER over legalism. I just know so many of us are CONFUSED by the lesser laws. Even all of the things Paul said which implied Christianity was "apart from Law," is because he knew that the Pharisee view was this Law en toto including the lesser laws and the idea that only by perfectly doing ALL of them is a man sanctified. No, only by doing SHEMA is a man doing God's will. From Shema hangs all the Law and the prophets, along with the lesser Golden Rule.

Mt 22:

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Deut 30:

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

nothead,

1. The whole passage is about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ being the only gospel. Verses 1-4.
If Christ is preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? Verse 12.

2. Verse 13 said if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen and it goes on to say that everything is in vain from preaching to faith and they were false witnesses if physical resurrection was not true and they were of all men most miserable, verses 14-19.

3. Verses 20-28 is all about proof of the former resurrection to the future resurrection and when God would be all in all.

4. Verse 29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? This could mean jewish baptism of purification laws or heathens who believed in baptism for the dead. The point is if they believed that to live again how could it be possible for no resurrection at all for that would be believing in vain because Water Baptism as in baptismal regeneration doesn't save a person's soul from sin 1 Peter 3:21, only the blood Hebrews 9:22.

5. Verse 30: And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? They could be killed physically every day for their faith and many were including Paul.

6. Verse 31: I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. His rejoicing in Christ Jesus was eternal life and as a result the hope of physical resurrection.

7. 2 Corinthians 4:10-11: Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

8. So I do not disagree that love was the cause of why he served God and was willing to die for him and why he had the hope of a physical resurrection.

9. The main point of the passage is to prove that there was physical resurrection and hope of an afterlife and that their life had meaning and purpose and the message of the death, burial, and resurrection was how we will attain to physical resurrection. This is why it relates to physical resurrection.

10. What I was trying to show where people get if wrong today is that they believe dying daily has everything to do with dying to sin everyday when Paul preaching dying to sin once as Christ died. The dying to self is a spiritual dying which many believe is beating the old man to death so they don't sin and this is why they end up trying to do it in self effort instead of in Christ strength.

11. Paul said in Ephesians that being renewed in the Spirit 4:22-27. Neither give place to the devil is considered dying daily.

12. So I don't disagree that doing the Shema and loving Elohim concerns dying daily because everything God does is because of agape love.

13. I was going for the main point of the context because love is the overall point of everything that God does whether love to save or love to judge for love is the fulfillment of the law.

14. The belief I was guarding against was wrong doctrines about sin that people believe and do not understand what context is and why it is important.
As far as Jesus being God and not deity is a Christadelphian doctrine because of the very idea that deity cannot die etc. This is the reason for the kenosis of Christ.

• 15. There is no doubt that Christ pre-existed Micah 5:1-2 and Hebrews 1:10. Jesus is deity for divine names and titles are ascribed to him; Isaiah 9:6-7 and Matthew 1:23 and many more. Divine attributes are attributed to him Philippians 2:5-11 and divine offices too; John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:1-3 as Creator and Mediator, 1 Timothy 2:4-5 and head of the church Ephesians 1:22, the resurrection of life John 11:25 etc. Divine character is ascribed to him Luke 1:35, Isaiah 53:11; Hebrews 19 and many others. The works of God are ascribed to him and divine worship and the Godhead and deity; Matthew 28:19; John 5:10-23; 14:1, 23, 17:3; Romans 1:7; 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 John 5:7-8; Revelation 5:13; 7:10 etc.

16. For those who believe Jesus is deity say it was given to him just like the father gave him the kingdom and then he give the kingdom back so God will be all in all. A big thing for Christadelphians is subordination and inferiorism of the son to the father. Compound unity takes this is consideration because of the office.

17. I am going to stop here because I have to get some rest before I go to work so I will have to post the kenosis of Christ tomorrow because it is important to be detailed about this subject. Jerry kelso

 

[nothead]

nothead,

1. The whole passage is about the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ being the only gospel. Verses 1-4.
If Christ is preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? Verse 12.

2. Verse 13 said if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen and it goes on to say that everything is in vain from preaching to faith and they were false witnesses if physical resurrection was not true and they were of all men most miserable, verses 14-19.

3. Verses 20-28 is all about proof of the former resurrection to the future resurrection and when God would be all in all.

4. Verse 29: Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? This could mean jewish baptism of purification laws or heathens who believed in baptism for the dead. The point is if they believed that to live again how could it be possible for no resurrection at all for that would be believing in vain because Water Baptism as in baptismal regeneration doesn't save a person's soul from sin 1 Peter 3:21, only the blood Hebrews 9:22.

5. Verse 30: And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? They could be killed physically every day for their faith and many were including Paul.

6. Verse 31: I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. His rejoicing in Christ Jesus was eternal life and as a result the hope of physical resurrection.

7. 2 Corinthians 4:10-11: Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

8. So I do not disagree that love was the cause of why he served God and was willing to die for him and why he had the hope of a physical resurrection.

9. The main point of the passage is to prove that there was physical resurrection and hope of an afterlife and that their life had meaning and purpose and the message of the death, burial, and resurrection was how we will attain to physical resurrection. This is why it relates to physical resurrection.

10. What I was trying to show where people get if wrong today is that they believe dying daily has everything to do with dying to sin everyday when Paul preaching dying to sin once as Christ died. The dying to self is a spiritual dying which many believe is beating the old man to death so they don't sin and this is why they end up trying to do it in self effort instead of in Christ strength.

11. Paul said in Ephesians that being renewed in the Spirit 4:22-27. Neither give place to the devil is considered dying daily.

12. So I don't disagree that doing the Shema and loving Elohim concerns dying daily because everything God does is because of agape love.

13. I was going for the main point of the context because love is the overall point of everything that God does whether love to save or love to judge for love is the fulfillment of the law.

14. The belief I was guarding against was wrong doctrines about sin that people believe and do not understand what context is and why it is important.
As far as Jesus being God and not deity is a Christadelphian doctrine because of the very idea that deity cannot die etc. This is the reason for the kenosis of Christ.

• 15. There is no doubt that Christ pre-existed Micah 5:1-2 and Hebrews 1:10. Jesus is deity for divine names and titles are ascribed to him; Isaiah 9:6-7 and Matthew 1:23 and many more. Divine attributes are attributed to him Philippians 2:5-11 and divine offices too; John 1:3, Colossians 1:16, Hebrews 1:1-3 as Creator and Mediator, 1 Timothy 2:4-5 and head of the church Ephesians 1:22, the resurrection of life John 11:25 etc. Divine character is ascribed to him Luke 1:35, Isaiah 53:11; Hebrews 19 and many others. The works of God are ascribed to him and divine worship and the Godhead and deity; Matthew 28:19; John 5:10-23; 14:1, 23, 17:3; Romans 1:7; 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 John 5:7-8; Revelation 5:13; 7:10 etc.

16. For those who believe Jesus is deity say it was given to him just like the father gave him the kingdom and then he give the kingdom back so God will be all in all. A big thing for Christadelphians is subordination and inferiorism of the son to the father. Compound unity takes this is consideration because of the office.

17. I am going to stop here because I have to get some rest before I go to work so I will have to post the kenosis of Christ tomorrow because it is important to be detailed about this subject. Jerry kelso

I have dealt with your emphasis on the resurrection hope being PART of the "dying daily." We posted almost simultaneously.

I have to mow a lawn which takes about 3 hours. I will read more closely what you posted, sir...afterward. Thank you.

 

[nothead]

nothead,




10. What I was trying to show where people get if wrong today is that they believe dying daily has everything to do with dying to sin everyday when Paul preaching dying to sin once as Christ died. The dying to self is a spiritual dying which many believe is beating the old man to death so they don't sin and this is why they end up trying to do it in self effort instead of in Christ strength.

So what you were trying to say has NADA to do with the deity of Jesus OR Trinity. Secondly why do you think SIN died just because the Spirit indwells OR this sin was "nailed to the Cross" or that the confession of Jesus will bring no sin? Ananias and Sapphira were rebirthed in Spirit far as I know and this SAME Spirit struck them dead.

You can deny the Spirit, and God gives you the power to do so. Ignore, deny, oppose, or reject outright. No how no way keeping PART of one's deniro or property in THIS day and age is considered a mortal sin.

So the ONLY answer was that Ananias and wife did oppose the Holy Spirit in more direct fashion, not that they sinned with no relations or happenings BY the Holy Spirit in time and place. I said that it would be HARD for a rebirthed man to murder but also that CONFESSION of Jesus does not even bar this...although especially for German Lutherans there is no PENTECOSTAL rebirth at all.

Also Christians have a very WEIRD idea of what sin is, although the basic idea is not to break the Ten...what SHEMA says is that you are liable if you DON'T do the Shema. If you don't love God with ALL of your heart soul and strength. This is actually part of CORE GOSPEL since it is ASSUMED that a Jew or Gentile is UNRIGHTEOUS to begin with and must confess repentance when he becomes a new Christian. Consider that the "social Ten" which does not deal with God directly...the Thou shalt nots are actually DOABLE even by heathens and pagans. On Atheist boards they continually say they are doing Natural BASIC Law, such as honoring their parents, not coveting or murdering or stealing. It really is the Shema that tells all sinners they ARE sinning and only one man ever did it perfectly. "No man is righteous, no NOT ONE," became "No man is righteous EXCEPT one."

Without this basic concept, that you must confess the Sinner's Confession, there is NO NEED for propitiation, since everyone or at least some ones can get to heaven on their OWN merits, even theoretically Atheists. But Shema TELLS us this impossible Law is not done since NO ONE until Jesus came loved Him with all, from birth to death. So then we are ALL unrighteous and DO need propitiation. It is not that an unbeliever sinned an ITTY BITTY sin, RATHER that most of us never even CAME CLOSE to doing Shema, and a SINGLE righteous man serves as our Lamb or Passover Lamb. But the concept goes even further back to Sodom when TEN MEN could have served as propitiation for the whole town. Notice these are MEN and not God. The Jewish view was that a Righteous MAN would come and be our succor. The propitiation part was in my view ADDED-ON to the messianic prophesies...nevertheless STILL serves having precedent with Abraham's negotiations with God for MEN to propitiate. And I may add, this was not only icing on the cake but the REASON why we have hope in eternal life. Jesus' PROPITIATION for our sin.

This does not mean we can sin and be absolved, depending on the degree of sin and how God sees it in our individual cases. Christians WANT to have a confidence in eternal life, but unfortunately Jesus did not provide it in either Word OR event. There is NO SUCH THING as unconditional love of God in the absolute sense. Lukewarmness was WARNED to be a mortal sin, and this directly relates to Shema, which also directly OPPOSES it. Paul warned to "work out your salvation with fear and TREMBLING" this last word making no qualms about stating "unconditional love" is NOT absolute.

Also consider that all Trinitarians AND JisG break BOTH Shema AND the First Command of the Ten. Shema states FIRST "YHWH our Elohim, YHWH one." And you and yours BREAK with this concept with your Three-in-One God. And the First Command of the Ten also is broken. "I (singular) am the ONE (emphasized singular meaning) who brought (Hebrew singular verb) you out of Egypt, thou shalt have NO OTHER ONE (elohim) to my (singular) face. Jesus is not "another elohim" or "another one?" The Holy Spirit is not another elohim or "another one?" Yes they are ESPECIALLY since you SEPARATE them into Persons sir. Modalists also sin although it might not be so badly. They have the Father MORPHED into the Son and consider these the SAME Person. Both are heresy.

So then it is not once to die to SIN, but faith to faith in a FULLER indwelling of Spirit which allows us to put it away. You KNOW that the Holy Spirit has the power to NEGATE sin, by the principle of God's Seal of Promise alone. When you were baptized in Spirit, you were immediately able to SIN MUCH LESS were you not, sir? This is not in the absolute sense, rather in a relative sense. John said WHEN you sin, take it to the SAME altar you took your INITIAL repentance to. This is IN REGARD to the same indwelling Holy Spirit which automatically puts it away.

7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…

This means that BEING indwelt has automatic power, but then again what does "walking in the light" actually MEAN, sir? Not just sitting on a past confession OBVIOUSLY. OR upon the "finished Cross" obviously. Notice here and with Paul who speaks of the fear of God, BELIEVERS are being spoken unto.

And BELIEVERS included those BLASTED with the Indwelling Holy Spirit, from the Dispensations of God INITIALLY. Please consider that Holy Spirit baptisms today are not as intense or powerful as in the New Beginning.

And it is not "beating sin down" and regarding the old man continually. This is as bad as giving creedence or worry unto the Devil continually. Walking in the light is the solution and this is an increasing faith, faith TO faith. THE LIGHT is actually the Holy Spirit shekinah, to walk in Spirit and endeavor for this indwelling to be more fully indwelt. And true Love will increase just as romantic love in truth will increase...like an old wine gets smoother as it is aged. God's Covenant is continually give and take, and in ideal this Covenant, the NEW one is walking in the light in ever increasing fashion.
And actually in mechanism this is no harder than just loving God and reminding oneself to do so daily, JUST AS Shema was ever recited to do for OLD COVENANT Jews. Love God, love God. Saying it, confessing it, and then doing it. God blesses those who TRY and this especially to those He has SEALED.

Otherwise you don't LINK your fave verse about dying daily to anything here regarding the OP OR Trinity OR the Deity of Jesus. I have yet to see WHERE you make these links. Maybe it is YOU who is "all over the map," sir. Notice I did, and will continually do so. This is BECAUSE all scripture becomes cohesive with an Abrahamic Monotheistic view, and NOT from a Trinity or JisG stance.

 

[nothead]

As far as Jesus being God and not deity is a Christadelphian doctrine because of the very idea that deity cannot die etc. This is the reason for the kenosis of Christ.

• 15. There is no doubt that Christ pre-existed Micah 5:1-2 and Hebrews 1:10.

First you classify the concept as "Christadelphian" as IF the denom is awry to begin with, and then you tout KENOSIS as the superior theological paradigm.

No...the concept that God cannot die is pretty basic to me, basic intuitive common sense. And since I previously never studied this WEIRD science paradigm (kenosis) I did take the trouble to wiki it. What a WAYWARD diversion into the unknown THAT was.

You are WRONG more than three times only posting two sentences, and these are the problems here:

1) Jesus PRE-existed in the JEWISH view of pre-existence, not literally. He was NOT cavorting with his Father in Heaven before the Foundation of the World! He was the PLAN of God determined to be before the Foundation of the World. The basic idea is that the Sovereign God PLANS the ideal things to be beforehand, our creation, those written in the Book of Life, the destinies ideal of the saints of God, the things which serve as OUTER BOUNDARY of destiny in the Ideal especially.

Pre-existence Jewish Encyclopedia

In the New Testament the same view is expressed regarding the preexistence of persons and things forming part of the divine salvation. When Jesus, in John viii. 58, says, "Before Abraham was, I am," allusion is made to the preexistence of the Messiah. So is the Kingdom—that is, the reward of paradise—"prepared for you [the righteous] from the foundation of the world" (Matt. xxv. 34; comp. Abot iii. 16). From Matt. xiii. 35 it appears that the "dark sayings of old" of Ps. lxxviii. 2 was understood to refer to Messianic secrets prepared from the foundation of the world. Similarly the names of the righteous are "written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" (Rev. xvii. 8).

But the blood of the martyr prophets was also believed to have been "shed from the foundation of the world" (Luke xi. 50); hence, also, that of the "Lamb" (Rev. xiii. 8; Heb. ix. 26). The Apostles claimed to have been, with their master, "chosen from the foundation of the world" (Eph. i. 4; comp. John xvii. 24; I Peter i. 20; Heb. iv. 3).

Preexistence of the Messiah:
This includes his existence before Creation; the existence of his name; his existence after the creation of the world. Two Biblical passages favor the view of the preexistence of the Messiah: Micah v. 1 (A. V. 2), speaking of the Bethlehemite ruler, says that his "goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting"; Dan. vii. 13 speaks of "one like the Son of man," who "came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days." In the Messianic similitudes of Enoch (xxxvii.-lxxi.) the three preexistences are spoken of: "The Messiah was chosen of God before the creation of the world, and he shall be before Him to eternity" (xlviii. 6). Before the sun and the signs of the zodiac were created, or ever the stars of heaven were formed his name was uttered in the presence of the Lord of Spirits (= God; xlviii. 3). Apart from these passages, there are only general statements that the Messiah was hidden and preserved by God (lxii. 6-7, xlvi. 1-3), without any declaration as to when he began to be. His preexistence is affirmed also in II Esdras (about 90 C.E.), according to which he has been preserved and hidden by God "a great season"; nor shall mankind see him save at the hour of his appointed day (xii. 32; xiii. 26, 52; xiv. 9), although no mention is made of the antemundane existence either of his person or of his name (comp. Syriac Apoc. Baruch, xxix. 3).

Thus also the Rabbis. Of the seven things fashioned before the creation of the world, the last was the name of the Messiah (comp. Ps. lxxii. 17; Pes. 54a; Tan., Naso, ed. Buber, No. 19; and parallels); and the Targum regards the preexistence of the Messiah's name as implied in Micah v. 1 (A. V. 2), Zech. iv. 7, and Ps. lxxii. 17.

...notice that in this view, Jesus is NOT literally alive and well with the Father before the Foundation of the World.

What aspect of pre-existence HAS to be true is that the Plan of Messiah WAS pre-determined to be...otherwise NO PROPHESY of Messiah could be valid. The Word in other words, is PLANNED before it is executed by God. In fact THIS was the meaning of your two verses, Micah 5:1-2 and Heb 1:10.

5 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.

2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Heb 1

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Actually it is Jn 17 by which MOST Christians consider Jesus CAVORTING with God in Heaven before the Foundation of the World and THIS passage:

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

AS IF Jesus was WITH God physically and alive and well as ANOTHER ONE who is God before the foundation of the world.
This CANNOT be true within the strict bounds of JEWISH view. Jesus was ALLUDING to exactly WHEN he possessed glory...when God DETERMINED he would, before he was ever alive. It WAS his, this glory even though he wasn't alive to receive it, and the only DISCONNECT here is the misunderstanding of what "I had with you" MEANS. Jesus HAD it when God determined it to become, not when he was CONSCIOUS to know of it. He "shared" it because God determined it to be FOR HIM and for him only, a very PERSONAL sharing by all consideration, apart from anyone else. "This is my beloved son" MEANS this, that God shared his glory with Jesus and even DETERMINED this to be, before Jesus was MADE. After he was created and this life was spoken forth THEN he could be conscious of the special promise made to him only.

2) As I said before your mind CLASSIFIES the issue as "Christadelphian" when in fact it makes NO SENSE that God could die.

3) KENOSIS was a relatively LATE theological concept, and stems from the Phil 2:7 verse

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

...these blue letters considered as in other interpretations an EMPTYING of. Since emptying of "reputation" is awkward in English, the KJV considered it instead a "MAKING of himself of no reputation." But notice the KJV is NOT saying he was emptying himself of his INNATE NATURE. And I do believe the KJV is more accurate.

But the most glaring mistake trinnies make in regards to the passage is the meaning of "the form of God." This is MORPHE, or APPARENT or OUTWARD visage. NOT inner nature or inherent Being or substance. Or INNER ANYTHING. OUTER, APPARENT, that which SEEMS to be.

Not KNOWING the "form of God" in LITERAL fashion, Paul could NOT have meant the LITERAL "form of God." In fact, Jewish considerations were dominantly and especially in the Greek culture in view of God HAVING NO FORM. Maimonides made this concept CREEDAL in fact a thousand years later. God HAS no form, that which He CREATED. All "form" BEING created, since He is UNcreated.

Christians look at this verse bassACKWERDS in the consideration that Jesus WAS the "form of God," and therefore Paul was SAYING this...when in fact Paul must have meant it idiomatically. He had no SPECIAL consideration of God's form since he never SAW this form. It was an idiomatic and figurative terminology, not a literal one. I believe it meant something like "a form of a king, in royal splendor and pomp." This WAS the Jewish consideration, that a king was DUE his splendorifous royal pomp, BEING in ideal an emissary of God Himself. And as IDIOM it serves nicely in JUXTAPOSITION with "made himself of no reputation." Consider Paul never SAW Christ literally in life. And if he saw Jesus in heaven, in dream or vision, Jesus WAS glorified there so he WOULD have the reputation and SPLENDOR of a "king" there.

So then KENOSIS is a wayward consideration of a MISinterpretation of Phil 2:7. A paradigm MADE in context of a MISinterpretation of this passage.
Not only this, but a GOODLY portion of Christian proto-orthodoxy CONSIDERS Kenosis faulty in theory. They just say Jesus is both God and man (Godman) wholly and definitively. 100% God AND 100% man.

Their idea is that kenosis DEMEANS any idea of Jesus being 100% God even while he walked the earth.

 

[jerry kelso]

So what you were trying to say has NADA to do with the deity of Jesus OR Trinity. Secondly why do you think SIN died just because the Spirit indwells OR this sin was "nailed to the Cross" or that the confession of Jesus will bring no sin? Ananias and Sapphira were rebirthed in Spirit far as I know and this SAME Spirit struck them dead.

You can deny the Spirit, and God gives you the power to do so. Ignore, deny, oppose, or reject outright. No how no way keeping PART of one's deniro or property in THIS day and age is considered a mortal sin.

So the ONLY answer was that Ananias and wife did oppose the Holy Spirit in more direct fashion, not that they sinned with no relations or happenings BY the Holy Spirit in time and place. I said that it would be HARD for a rebirthed man to murder but also that CONFESSION of Jesus does not even bar this...although especially for German Lutherans there is no PENTECOSTAL rebirth at all.

Also Christians have a very WEIRD idea of what sin is, although the basic idea is not to break the Ten...what SHEMA says is that you are liable if you DON'T do the Shema. If you don't love God with ALL of your heart soul and strength. This is actually part of CORE GOSPEL since it is ASSUMED that a Jew or Gentile is UNRIGHTEOUS to begin with and must confess repentance when he becomes a new Christian. Consider that the "social Ten" which does not deal with God directly...the Thou shalt nots are actually DOABLE even by heathens and pagans. On Atheist boards they continually say they are doing Natural BASIC Law, such as honoring their parents, not coveting or murdering or stealing. It really is the Shema that tells all sinners they ARE sinning and only one man ever did it perfectly. "No man is righteous, no NOT ONE," became "No man is righteous EXCEPT one."

Without this basic concept, that you must confess the Sinner's Confession, there is NO NEED for propitiation, since everyone or at least some ones can get to heaven on their OWN merits, even theoretically Atheists. But Shema TELLS us this impossible Law is not done since NO ONE until Jesus came loved Him with all, from birth to death. So then we are ALL unrighteous and DO need propitiation. It is not that an unbeliever sinned an ITTY BITTY sin, RATHER that most of us never even CAME CLOSE to doing Shema, and a SINGLE righteous man serves as our Lamb or Passover Lamb. But the concept goes even further back to Sodom when TEN MEN could have served as propitiation for the whole town. Notice these are MEN and not God. The Jewish view was that a Righteous MAN would come and be our succor. The propitiation part was in my view ADDED-ON to the messianic prophesies...nevertheless STILL serves having precedent with Abraham's negotiations with God for MEN to propitiate. And I may add, this was not only icing on the cake but the REASON why we have hope in eternal life. Jesus' PROPITIATION for our sin.

This does not mean we can sin and be absolved, depending on the degree of sin and how God sees it in our individual cases. Christians WANT to have a confidence in eternal life, but unfortunately Jesus did not provide it in either Word OR event. There is NO SUCH THING as unconditional love of God in the absolute sense. Lukewarmness was WARNED to be a mortal sin, and this directly relates to Shema, which also directly OPPOSES it. Paul warned to "work out your salvation with fear and TREMBLING" this last word making no qualms about stating "unconditional love" is NOT absolute.

Also consider that all Trinitarians AND JisG break BOTH Shema AND the First Command of the Ten. Shema states FIRST "YHWH our Elohim, YHWH one." And you and yours BREAK with this concept with your Three-in-One God. And the First Command of the Ten also is broken. "I (singular) am the ONE (emphasized singular meaning) who brought (Hebrew singular verb) you out of Egypt, thou shalt have NO OTHER ONE (elohim) to my (singular) face. Jesus is not "another elohim" or "another one?" The Holy Spirit is not another elohim or "another one?" Yes they are ESPECIALLY since you SEPARATE them into Persons sir. Modalists also sin although it might not be so badly. They have the Father MORPHED into the Son and consider these the SAME Person. Both are heresy.

So then it is not once to die to SIN, but faith to faith in a FULLER indwelling of Spirit which allows us to put it away. You KNOW that the Holy Spirit has the power to NEGATE sin, by the principle of God's Seal of Promise alone. When you were baptized in Spirit, you were immediately able to SIN MUCH LESS were you not, sir? This is not in the absolute sense, rather in a relative sense. John said WHEN you sin, take it to the SAME altar you took your INITIAL repentance to. This is IN REGARD to the same indwelling Holy Spirit which automatically puts it away.

7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.…

This means that BEING indwelt has automatic power, but then again what does "walking in the light" actually MEAN, sir? Not just sitting on a past confession OBVIOUSLY. OR upon the "finished Cross" obviously. Notice here and with Paul who speaks of the fear of God, BELIEVERS are being spoken unto.

And BELIEVERS included those BLASTED with the Indwelling Holy Spirit, from the Dispensations of God INITIALLY. Please consider that Holy Spirit baptisms today are not as intense or powerful as in the New Beginning.

And it is not "beating sin down" and regarding the old man continually. This is as bad as giving creedence or worry unto the Devil continually. Walking in the light is the solution and this is an increasing faith, faith TO faith. THE LIGHT is actually the Holy Spirit shekinah, to walk in Spirit and endeavor for this indwelling to be more fully indwelt. And true Love will increase just as romantic love in truth will increase...like an old wine gets smoother as it is aged. God's Covenant is continually give and take, and in ideal this Covenant, the NEW one is walking in the light in ever increasing fashion.
And actually in mechanism this is no harder than just loving God and reminding oneself to do so daily, JUST AS Shema was ever recited to do for OLD COVENANT Jews. Love God, love God. Saying it, confessing it, and then doing it. God blesses those who TRY and this especially to those He has SEALED.

Otherwise you don't LINK your fave verse about dying daily to anything here regarding the OP OR Trinity OR the Deity of Jesus. I have yet to see WHERE you make these links. Maybe it is YOU who is "all over the map," sir. Notice I did, and will continually do so. This is BECAUSE all scripture becomes cohesive with an Abrahamic Monotheistic view, and NOT from a Trinity or JisG stance.

nothead,

1. I said your concept of the Shema and loving God with all your heart I said is why we put our life on the line for the cause of Christ and the sake of the call and carrying our cross but it was not the main point of the immediate passage. The immediate passage must be understood first before one can go talking about another context or angle from another scripture.

2. The phrase "I die daily" really has nothing to do with the trinity directly or the deity of Jesus directly. Now you can make a point of Jesus deity in the fact the he is Divine Redeemer and Divine Savior of the world and there is no other name whereby man can be saved.
One can do the same with the connection to the trinity because the Holy Spirit and God the Father were a part of redemption's plan. No man can be drawn to the Father or the Son and no man can be convicted of sin and doubt except by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit conceived Christ. God the Father was the one who loved us so much he sent his only begotten son to die for the world so we could have eternal life. This is still not the main point of the immediate passage in 1 Corinthians 15.

3. The subject of sin is very important and is very misunderstood. Sin dies when a christian gets saved because we are new creatures in Christ and have the divine nature of God. This is why I said there is a difference of a christians sinning by missing the mark in the spiritual fight and his nature as a whole where sin doesn't change his nature and he doesn't change masters.

4. Paul said in Romans 6 we are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies. Now I know the argument for those that believe one sin is the same as yielding but Romans 6 is more about yielding to where one changes masters. At the same time if we are abiding in Christ we do not commit sin as John puts it. But John also says, if any man sin Jesus is the propitiation for our sins which are christians and not our only but the sins of the whole world.

5. Another words, a truthful person is not a liar but a truthful person could tell a lie; nature vs. missing the mark because we are not always perfect in our knowledge among other reasons.

6. Ananias and Sapphira I believe were saved because they obeyed the apostles doctrine as believers. The sin they sinned was against the Holy Spirit. If we take this as a willful sin against the Holy Spirit knowingly it could be blasphemy against the Holy Spirit of which there is no repentance for in this life or the next of which Jesus said in Matthew 12 to the scribes and pharisees. If you take it as the specific sin of selling the property etc. and because they held back part of it then some suggest this has to do with the Mosaic law and judgement from it. The problem with this view is that the law was abolished at Calvary. On the other hand the early church was made up of the jewish nation for the most part and they were still trying to sift through with what was done away in the law of Moses because the law had been their whole life and culture and the law was to be forever for the jewish nation. You can draw your own conclusion but I do believe God gave us freewill and will not make us do what we don't want to do which means a christian can deny the Spirit and lose their salvation.

7. The Shema was in the days of the Torah under the law of Moses. The ten commandments were give by God twice.

3. The ethic of Moses was different than the new covenant in the big picture.

9. The Shema has nothing to do with the core of the gospel necessarily directly if we are talking about the gospel of salvation. The death, burial, and resurrection is the only gospel of salvation and without Christ dying and resurrecting no man could have been saved. Even those in the old testament were not completely saved till Calvary for salvation was not perfected till then and believers could not be perfect till then in the act of salvation because in the old testament their sins were covered by the blood of bulls and goats which were temporary and could not save to the uttermost. Hebrews 10:40 shows that the old testament saints and the new covenant believers were both perfected together because of the cross of Christ.

10. We do not love the Lord thy God with all our heart and soul and mind by working up to the code of ethics of the 10 commandments. It is to be who we are in Christ and the finished work of Christ that gives us the desire and power to automatically love him.

11. The heathens won't love the Lord God with all their hearts etc. because they are not his children. Now, it is true that heathens can be very moral people and not be saved for one must be saved by the blood to have eternal life and be a child of God and a new creature in Christ.

12. It wasn't the Shema that gave the knowledge of sin, but Paul said in Romans 3:12 it was the law that gave the knowledge of sin.

13. Man is not righteous because of the fall of man which caused everyone to be born in sin.
Christ was righteous because he was born sinless and never sinned in his earthly life because he had to be the spotless lamb and he had to keep the law perfectly as well.

14. No man can merit salvation by works which Romans 4 shows.

15. The children of Israel had to do the whole law in order to be perfect like their father in heaven and this would show that they loved God with all their heart, mind and soul. Zacharias and Elizabeth and Paul lived the law perfectly and the children of Israel did in Joshua's day even though these were temporary times. Of course Paul living the law perfectly still had a major flaw at the time concerning killing christians of which he thought he was pleasing God and found out that he didn't and God gave him mercy.

16. Love is why God does what he does, so even propitiation was because of loving us so much as to save us from sin, but grace is also why God gives us a chance to be saved just like the Sodomites of which they rejected that love as well as grace and mercy which enters into the picture of propitiation.

17. Unconditional love is true in the giving of salvation because Christ gave his life freely and it is unconditional if one freely chooses it. It is not unconditional if one rejects it.
Trinitarians don't break the Shema except to your interpretation.

18. God means deity and they can be called one each of their own and they are and the oneness in number is found in the three's unity.

19. The scriptures plainly state in Hebrews 1:7-10 that God the Father calls his begotten Son God and that he created the earth and the heavens. This overrides your scriptures that imply there is only one God in number in the God head and there is no way you can really get around it. So you are just a walking contradiction according to the scriptures on the subject of the trinity.

20. Oneness morphs the Father into the son and the Holy Spirit is his spirit. If you don't believe in oneness and you don't believe in the trinity then you must believe Christadelphian for they believe in God the father only, but Jesus God's son as only human and the Holy Spirit being the Spirit of the father. Is that what you believe? Be honest. I could say that is heresy too.

21. Dying to sin once as Christ died is what Paul said and Peter said of suffering the flesh has ceased from sin. Our lives are not to be subject to a conscience of sin such as I can't help but sin. This agains talks about the nature and not letting sin reign in our mortal body. This doesn't nullify the fact of everyday walking in the light and abiding in Christ and it is not about sitting on a past confession otherwise none would have the possibility of losing their salvation. So you are missing the point of what Paul said because we are not to be sinning everyday but people who call themselves a christian many times have the attitude of "I can't help but sin" which really says to the subconscious that Satan has more power to keep one in sin than God has to keep one from overcoming sin.

22. Romans 7 shows the life under the Mosaic law and life of defeat because of the law of sin and death taking advantage of the law holy and good and made them live to the frailty of man which was under the control of sin.
The truth is we need to be conscious of what Christ did instead of Christ teachings under the Mosaic law which were do, do, do.

23. The Sermon on the Mount shows the works that Israel was to be doing in order to be blessed under the law covenant and they were to repent so they could be in right standing with God not backslidden. This is not written to the true church because we are not to be backslidden and we have not been trodden down under the foot of men for the gates of hell shall prevail against the church which Jesus said.
So state plainly what you think the Abrahamic monotheistic belief is. Jerry kelso

 

[nothead]

<staff edit>
The main problem with Trinity is that all Jews KNEW SHEMA. Therefore Jesus CANNOT BE GOD. And he in fact said SHEMA IS PRIMAL in Mk 12, Mt 22 and Luke 10.

<staff edit>

 

[jerry kelso]

<staff edit> After understanding the proper interpretation of the immediate passage then 2 Corinthians 4:10-11 gives weight and agrees and reconciles the truth of the immediate passage of 1 Corinthians 15 to the point about bearing about in our physical bodies the spiritual gospel of the death and resurrection everyday to the point of the possibility of dying everyday for the sake of the call. Jerry kelso

 

[nothead]

<staff edit>

Mk 12

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

So then the trinnie HAS NO PROBLEM with HE being PLURAL since HE is plural FOR them. And Eph 4 says there is ONE LORD
so then they MERGE the LORD and the Lord together as ONE, even though the Psalm 110 verse HAS TWO in the Septuagint,
"The LORD said to my Lord." This trinnie NEVER MADE more than one connection from the original languages.

1) LORD Adonai is DISTINCT from Lord Jesus. ADON is the "Lord" of Lord Jesus and ADONAI is the LORD of God.
2) Saying "one Lord" in Eph 4 is EITHER/OR, either Paul meant LORD adonai or Lord adon.
3) They MISS the next verse: 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
4) "The Adonai" was said as a REPLACEMENT NAME for "YHWH" which was by now too SACRED to say out loud or translate or render unto text. This was NOT the meaning of "Lord Jesus." Jesus is "Lord" in tandem but also JUXTAPOSITION in SEVENTY ONE verses. And NEVER called "theos" in ANY of these. "Adonai" just meant "theos" for the Jew the authors of which SAME JUDAISM never called Jesus "Adonai" OR "theos."

This last argument is espoused by Sir Anthony Buzzard, PHD. A scholar of EPIC proportions, sir. I in turn expounded on his own DISTINCTION between two words in the Hebrew, ADON and ADONAI which are in Koine translated BOTH "kurios."

 

[nothead]

<staff edit>
I bring Shema to the table and Shema only.

It is the Word of God the highest Command said by Jesus under this sun. Shema FULFILLED is Jesus IN us. And us IN Christ.
Jesus SAID it since the Word was upon his lips. But this Word came from God originally to Moses, as they crossed the River Jordan.

It NEGATES the Threeness of God by the ECHAD which it states. One True and ONLY God. YHWH our Elohim. The "echad" is numerical, just as the plain meaning is, look it up. The concept is simple, considered Peshat Law by Jews near or far. But the implications are vast, putting all HAIRY Theology aside and getting down to CORE BELIEF, sir.

If you only receive this Word by itself in this forlorn life of yours, you will be glad with a GREAT GLADNESS sir. Take my word for it. Truth and Life. My word comes from the Bible which comes from God himself. And His Son epitomizes both Shema AND the Way to Eternal Life. Amen, don't push in front of that old lady as you go out the door.

 

[tulipbee]

Trinity is different in the timeless spaceless deminsion. Men fussing about what it is goes on forever. For now in our deminsion, it 3=1 or whole or together

 

[Hoghead1]

Trinity is different in the timeless spaceless deminsion. Men fussing about what it is goes on forever. For now in our deminsion, it 3=1 or whole or together

What exactly is your rationale for their being some timeless, spaceless dimension?