Why The Trinity is a False Teaching - Summarized Doctrinal Reasons

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7xlightray

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Yes... but if you understand the Bible you also understand the difference.

Jesus was tempted in every way - just as we are. But the temptation came from without. Not from within.

Maybe we need to back up and talk about what temptation is. Temptation is the desire - stimulated from either without or within (both for us, only from without for Jesus) - to satisfy a want or a need in a way that rebels against God's law and/or purpose for us.

We are told elsewhere in scripture that temptation falls under three areas: the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

To see this, one must only look at the temptations that were given Jesus:

(1) to make bread from rocks. Jesus was experiencing extreme physical hunger at this point in time, having fasted for 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness. Under such circumstances His body needed food soon.
However, He knew that God's purpose in this was for Him to not heed the voice of the devil, so even though His physical body needed food soon, He knew this was not the time to take that food. He chose not to heed the temptation to obtain His body's needs in a way that would be rebelling against the Father's purpose for Him.

(2) to throw Himself from the heights. The devil was here inviting Jesus to test God's promise for Him by intentionally putting Himself in danger. The subtle message of this is "let's see if the Father will really keep you from death if you do this."
However, Jesus knew that it was wrong to test God. He chose not to heed the temptation to "verify" the Father's promises.

And, of course (3) to bow down and worship the devil, for which the devil would give him the earth. This is the most clear temptation to sin and rebellion, but as we find in the gospel of John this also had the most compelling temptation, as it offered Him a vast kingdom without the suffering that would come by way of the cross.

So, as I said before, Jesus was tempted in every way, just as we are (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life), but only from other beings, not from His own being.

The scripture is giving you the definition...

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire], and enticed.

If you don't have desire there is not temptation. Jesus resisted temptation, this is what Hebrews is saying, he suffered temptation, as we do. It does not matter if it starts from outside, you have to have the desire, to be tempted from another. If there is no desire there is no temptation. God is in need of nothing, He is complete, so He can't be tempted. He has no need of anything, or anyone, it's all for his good pleasure.
 
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nomadictheist

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Peter did not sin, he was operating out of his own measure of belief.
I demonstrated from scripture that Peter sinned. Calling it something else doesn't change that.
What you don't realize is that you are grabbing passages in scripture to try to permit your own sins, yet we are called by Jesus Christ to be perfect,
Yep. We're called to be perfect, but "if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous." As I said perfection is the goal. But it is not fully attainable in this life.
I don't try to "permit my own sins." What I do is acknowledge that they are there and confess them to Christ in humility. I would not dare be so prideful as to tell God He is a liar.

And to not sin any more,
Yes, and people like you who take these verses out of context to say that it is possible for a human to be sinless in this life are the reason that some translators have translated this passage "go, and leave your life of sin."

So you are in error suggesting that sins can still be committed after being born of God.
The Bible says differently, and I'll believe that over you any day.
 
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7xlightray

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Yes, and as scripture explains, Jesus could be tempted by evil because He was fully man at the time He was tempted, just as He is also God.

The both/and really helps reconcile scripture...

Which person was tempted? Jesus is only one person. And that person is either God, or man.
 
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Goatee

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Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

Even those in Spirit can still get tempted and sin!
 
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nomadictheist

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The scripture is giving you the definition...

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust [desire], and enticed.

If you don't have desire there is not temptation. Jesus resisted temptation, this is what Hebrews is saying, he suffered temptation, as we do. It does not matter if it starts from outside, you have to have the desire, to be tempted from another. If there is no desire there is no temptation. God is in need of nothing, He is complete, so He can't be tempted. He has no need of anything, or anyone, it's all for his good pleasure.
This is James, not Hebrews. James is not giving us the definition for how Jesus was tempted.

Jesus was not born with the sin nature. That is biblical. If He were, He could not have been the spotless Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Jesus desired above all to do the will of God. Yes, He prayed "if it is possible, take this cup from me." But He followed that prayer with "nevertheless, not My will, but Yours..."

You cannot show from scripture that Jesus was inwardly tempted to rebel against the Father's will.
 
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cgaviria

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I demonstrated from scripture that Peter sinned. Calling it something else doesn't change that.

Yep. We're called to be perfect, but "if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous." As I said perfection is the goal. But it is not fully attainable in this life.
I don't try to "permit my own sins." What I do is acknowledge that they are there and confess them to Christ in humility. I would not dare be so prideful as to tell God He is a liar.


Yes, and people like you who take these verses out of context to say that it is possible for a human to be sinless in this life are the reason that some translators have translated this passage "go, and leave your life of sin."


The Bible says differently, and I'll believe that over you any day.

If anybody sins a sin not punishable by death, and also sins a sin not punishable by death before receiving holy spirit, can someone still be forgiven. But at some point, in this life, you must attain the full stature of Christ, and be full of holy spirit, and never sin again. And also, rest assured, if you believe in Jesus Christ, and commit adultery, you will not be saved. And anybody who teaches this will also not be saved. Unless such persons completely stop what they are doing, and never again commit these sins, and become born of God to thus never sin again. No one that is born of God can sin, it is impossible, per what the scripture says,
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9 [KJV])
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. (1 John 3:6 [KJV])

So if you are here teaching the opposite of these scriptures, its because there is sin in your life you are trying to excuse. It's incredible how plain and under your nose these verses are and you still refuse to see them. Its as if these verses didn't even exist in your brain. Tisk tisk.
 
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Goatee

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This is a good explanation i saw:

First John 3:9 does not teach the Reformed doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Indeed, no passage does. God perseveres. Saints at best fail daily. First John 3:9 is a call to holiness. Our new natures are pure and holy. Let us live in our experience like we are in our position. Of course, there is a mystery here. John said in 1 John 1:8,10 that believers cannot attain to sinless perfection in their experience. However, we can allow our new natures to dominate our experience so that we live consistently godly lives. May we live like who we are: children of the Holy One who has saved us by His amazing, free grace.

Another point on the above:

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=919

http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/are-you-saved-if-only.html
 
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civilwarbuff

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This is in no way an exhausted list. And if you follow this pattern when reading the scripture, they will flow naturally.

What we have to ask ourselves, is why is Jesus never introduced as also our God in the introduction of these letters. Why does it never say “peace from God the Father, Son, even the Holy Spirit, which is never mentioned in any of these letter introductions?
You can't have more than 1 supreme in heaven. These verses are talking about equality between the Father and Son regardless of the order in which they are mentioned. Go check it yourself.
(my bolding)

God G2316
Root Word (Etymology)
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with ὁ (G3588)) the supreme Divinity
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

Lord G2962
Root Word (Etymology)
From kuros (supremacy)
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2962&t=KJV
 
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7xlightray

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This is James, not Hebrews. James is not giving us the definition for how Jesus was tempted.

Jesus was not born with the sin nature. That is biblical. If He were, He could not have been the spotless Lamb who takes away the sins of the world.

Jesus desired above all to do the will of God. Yes, He prayed "if it is possible, take this cup from me." But He followed that prayer with "nevertheless, not My will, but Yours..."

You cannot show from scripture that Jesus was inwardly tempted to rebel against the Father's will.

I just gave you the proof in James. That is temptation. If you don't understand it that's fine. If Jesus had no desire, then he was not tempted.

Jesus had a desire not to go to the cross. He was in agony, asking if it could be taken away. Then he prayed more earnestly, and started to sweat like drops of blood. If you resisted strong temptation, then you have an understanding of what Jesus is going through. It is agony, and you start to sweat, doing all you can to resisting. An angel had to appear, to strengthen him. He was praying that he would not have to go through this. He was resisting temptation.

I was referring to the Hebrews passages I gave in previous post Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 2:18.
 
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7xlightray

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You can't have more than 1 supreme in heaven. These verses are talking about equality between the Father and Son regardless of the order in which they are mentioned. Go check it yourself.
(my bolding)

God G2316
Root Word (Etymology)
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with ὁ (G3588)) the supreme Divinity
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

Lord G2962
Root Word (Etymology)
From kuros (supremacy)
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2962&t=KJV

And the Bible itself, is giving you the definition...

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

I take it you don't like the Bibles definition?
 
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nomadictheist

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I just gave you the proof in James. That is temptation. If you don't understand it that's fine. If Jesus had no desire, then he was not tempted.

Jesus had a desire not to go to the cross. He was in agony, asking if it could be taken away. Then he prayed more earnestly, and started to sweat like drops of blood. If you resisted strong temptation, then you have an understanding of what Jesus is going through. It is agony, and you start to sweat, doing all you can to resisting. An angel had to appear, to strengthen him. He was praying that he would not have to go through this. He was resisting temptation.

I was referring to the Hebrews passages I gave in previous post Hebrews 4:15; Hebrews 2:18.
He had a desire not to go to the cross, but He did not have a desire to rebel against God. There is a difference. Thus why He prayed "if it is possible, take this cup from me..."

Did He already know the outcome? Yes. Jesus Himself said that He came from above, while all other men have come from below (the earth).

Let's say this another way.

Desire: Jesus desired food. Desiring food is not wrong.
Jesus did not desire to obtain food in a way that was not pleasing to the Father.
The Devil "tempted Him" to obtain His desire through a means that was not pleasing to the Father.
Jesus resisted. He did not want/desire to obtain food in a way that was not pleasing to the Father.

Desire: Jesus desired to not endure the extreme suffering and anguish of the cross. This is not wrong. Thus He prayed, "if it is possible, take this cup from me."

But the meaning must be taken in full if we are to truly understand Jesus' desires. "If it is possible" clearly doesn't mean if it's possible at all, because God could have abandoned the human race to sin and death.

So Jesus desired to not endure the agony and anguish of the cross, which was not wrong, but He did not desire to abandon the people that He loved to sin and death. And there was no other One who could walk this road.

Jesus was not born with a sin nature. The Bible never says that Jesus was tempted from within - that is your claim.
 
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civilwarbuff

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And the Bible itself, is giving you the definition...

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

I take it you don't like the Bibles definition?

Neither of the 2 above verses where mentioned in your original verse list; moving the goalposts again I see....
Your list of verses are here:
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ctrinal-reasons.7928502/page-17#post-69234396

I will repeat:
(my bolding)

God G2316
Root Word (Etymology)
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with ὁ (G3588)) the supreme Divinity
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
θεός theós, theh'-os; of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:—X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).

Lord G2962
Root Word (Etymology)
From kuros (supremacy)
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
κύριος kýrios, koo'-ree-os; from κῦρος kŷros (supremacy); supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title):—God, Lord, master, Sir.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2962&t=KJV
You can't have more than 1 supreme in heaven. These verses are talking about equality between the Father and Son regardless of the order in which they are mentioned. Go check it yourself.
I got no problem with the bible translation; you have a problem with the meaning of the original Greek.....
 
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nomadictheist

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If anybody sins a sin not punishable by death, and also sins a sin not punishable by death before receiving holy spirit, can someone still be forgiven. But at some point, in this life, you must attain the full stature of Christ, and be full of holy spirit, and never sin again. And also, rest assured, if you believe in Jesus Christ, and commit adultery, you will not be saved. And anybody who teaches this will also not be saved. Unless such persons completely stop what they are doing, and never again commit these sins, and become born of God to thus never sin again. No one that is born of God can sin, it is impossible, per what the scripture says,
Who put you in the seat of God? No godly man that I know would make such bold claims as to say they can tell someone whether or not they will inherit eternal life based on whether they sin.

I take it that you have never once thought a woman to be attractive since you became a believer. That you have never lied, been scornful of others, practiced deceit, sought revenge on an enemy in your heart, etc.

Have you not read that "whoever is guilty of one part of the law is guilty of all" and that "sin is transgression of the law." How then can there be "sin not punishable by death" for a believer? You have just declared adultery to be unforgivable. What other sins, in your opinion, are unforgivable?

Jesus names only one: "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." Since there is nothing in the scriptures to indicate otherwise, it is theologically sound and accurate to believe that St. John is speaking of this sin when he says "there is sin that leads to death."

So if you are here teaching the opposite of these scriptures, its because there is sin in your life you are trying to excuse. It's incredible how plain and under your nose these verses are and you still refuse to see them. Its as if these verses didn't even exist in your brain. Tisk tisk.
"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

"Whoever practices sin practices lawlessness..."

"For we all stumble in many ways..."

"Therefore I myself serve the Law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin..."

"Walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I teach what the scriptures teach as a whole, not divided up in a way that makes me feel more special than other people.

I think it is time for me to abandon this thread, though. I already know how you will respond to any scriptures that I put forth, saying that by the isolated and out of context verses you can quote you have already disproved what the scripture says elsewhere. It is the same thing you do with the trinity, with receiving the Spirit, and frankly anything else you don't like in the Bible.

Let me leave you with a couple questions from the Bible:

"15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

"Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh?"

Obedience to the law (sinlessness) is not our way to salvation either before or after believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our faith in Christ is our way to salvation, and if we think that anything more than that is required, then we make Christ of no account.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Who put you in the seat of God? No godly man that I know would make such bold claims as to say they can tell someone whether or not they will inherit eternal life based on whether they sin.

I take it that you have never once thought a woman to be attractive since you became a believer. That you have never lied, been scornful of others, practiced deceit, sought revenge on an enemy in your heart, etc.

Have you not read that "whoever is guilty of one part of the law is guilty of all" and that "sin is transgression of the law." How then can there be "sin not punishable by death" for a believer? You have just declared adultery to be unforgivable. What other sins, in your opinion, are unforgivable?

Jesus names only one: "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." Since there is nothing in the scriptures to indicate otherwise, it is theologically sound and accurate to believe that St. John is speaking of this sin when he says "there is sin that leads to death."


"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

"Whoever practices sin practices lawlessness..."

"For we all stumble in many ways..."

"Therefore I myself serve the Law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin..."

"Walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I teach what the scriptures teach as a whole, not divided up in a way that makes me feel more special than other people.

I think it is time for me to abandon this thread, though. I already know how you will respond to any scriptures that I put forth, saying that by the isolated and out of context verses you can quote you have already disproved what the scripture says elsewhere. It is the same thing you do with the trinity, with receiving the Spirit, and frankly anything else you don't like in the Bible.

Let me leave you with a couple questions from the Bible:

"15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

"Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh?"

Obedience to the law (sinlessness) is not our way to salvation either before or after believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our faith in Christ is our way to salvation, and if we think that anything more than that is required, then we make Christ of no account.
Very well said.....but likely to fall on deaf ears......
 
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cgaviria

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Who put you in the seat of God? No godly man that I know would make such bold claims as to say they can tell someone whether or not they will inherit eternal life based on whether they sin.

I take it that you have never once thought a woman to be attractive since you became a believer. That you have never lied, been scornful of others, practiced deceit, sought revenge on an enemy in your heart, etc.

Have you not read that "whoever is guilty of one part of the law is guilty of all" and that "sin is transgression of the law." How then can there be "sin not punishable by death" for a believer? You have just declared adultery to be unforgivable. What other sins, in your opinion, are unforgivable?

Jesus names only one: "Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." Since there is nothing in the scriptures to indicate otherwise, it is theologically sound and accurate to believe that St. John is speaking of this sin when he says "there is sin that leads to death."


"If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

"Whoever practices sin practices lawlessness..."

"For we all stumble in many ways..."

"Therefore I myself serve the Law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin..."

"Walk by the Spirit and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."

I teach what the scriptures teach as a whole, not divided up in a way that makes me feel more special than other people.

I think it is time for me to abandon this thread, though. I already know how you will respond to any scriptures that I put forth, saying that by the isolated and out of context verses you can quote you have already disproved what the scripture says elsewhere. It is the same thing you do with the trinity, with receiving the Spirit, and frankly anything else you don't like in the Bible.

Let me leave you with a couple questions from the Bible:

"15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness[c] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

"Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by[a] the flesh?"

Obedience to the law (sinlessness) is not our way to salvation either before or after believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our faith in Christ is our way to salvation, and if we think that anything more than that is required, then we make Christ of no account.

No adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God,
Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men (1 Corinthians 6:9 [NIV])

So if you are still committing adultery, you will not be saved. Its in the scriptures. Not my words. Read and learn.
 
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Very well said.....but likely to fall on deaf ears......

You guys are teaching that disobedience is allowable, I am teaching that it is not. Yet somehow Jesus Christ will one day say to certain people, "depart me from you workers of iniquity....". It seems to be that this relates to continual sinning, now doesn't it?
 
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Goatee

Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.
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No adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God,


So if you are still committing adultery, you will not be saved. Its in the scriptures. Not my words. Read and learn.

If you continue to commit adultery and do not seek Gods forgiveness and 'sin no more' then of course you are on a slippery slope!!!

If you commit adultery and seek forgiveness and gain absolution and 'sin no more' then you are on your way to being saved.
 
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Goatee

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You guys are teaching that disobedience is allowable, I am teaching that it is not. Yet somehow Jesus Christ will one day say to certain people, "depart me from you workers of iniquity....". It seems to be that this relates to continual sinning, now doesn't it?

We are saying that Jesus was sent to forgive sinners. If one sins and is truly sorry and does his best not to sin that sin again then he can be saved! Jesus said how many times one can be forgiven! It is in scripture. Disobedience is to sin continuously without sorrow, without seeking forgiveness, without being truly sorry to God.

Sin can be forgiven!
 
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civilwarbuff

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You guys are teaching that disobedience is allowable, I am teaching that it is not. Yet somehow Jesus Christ will one day say to certain people, "depart me from you workers of iniquity....". It seems to be that this relates to continual sinning, now doesn't it?
No, we believe in grace and forgiveness..... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.....especially me and even you.....
 
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Goatee

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No, we believe in grace and forgiveness..... for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.....especially me and even you.....

This very true indeed
 
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