Why the Trinity is a False Doctrine

[Fireinfolding]

There might be folks dont believe the Father shares in the same nature in everything as the Son knowing that the Father was not made flesh (but the Word was made flesh), Not taking upon him the nature of angels, but being made lower than Angels (taking upon him the seed of Abraham).

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

So he was heard in that he feared, and then here

Hebrews 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Some people have a hard time believing God the Father would need to learn obedience through a medium of suffering

Or believe that God the Father needed to be made perfect

But it does say of the greater that Men sware by the greater
(God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus) whom he sent Heb 6:13 &16 and John 14:28

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

For example,

Heb 6:13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

So God could sware by no one greater he sware by himself.

Even as Jesus said the Father is greater than I

In fact greater then all, as He also said, My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all (John 10:29)

Confirming also that men sware by the greater

Heb 6:16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

Which is directly connected to an oath of confirmation which is to them (by the same) an end of all strife it says,

Following the above out leads to Jesus after the order of Melchisedec once again

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Heb 6:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Heb 6:20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

And again

Hebrews 7:21 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (Psalm 110:4, Heb 7:21)

Maybe there are some differences in things such as that maybe?

 

[Fireinfolding]

 

[FreeinChrist]

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[Chriliman]

Jesus sits at the righteous right hand of God. Does God's righteous right hand have a beginning or end? If yes, how is He God? If no, then Jesus being at the right hand of God has always been true and will never cease to be true, it's an eternal truth.

God does not "begin" making things true, His word is truth and His word emanates from Himself. All creation was created by God's eternal word, therefore His eternal word was not created, but the source of all creation. If God's word states that Jesus is at His righteous right hand, then this is an eternal truth with no beginning or end, no matter what man says.

John 14:6
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Jesus is God's word of truth and God's word of truth has no beginning or end, everything was and is and will be created from it.

Jesus was not created, He is the truth of God and the truth of God has no beginning or end.

Anyone who says the truth of God(Jesus) has been created, is creating for themselves a false truth of God and a false Messiah.

Humbly seek Him and He will make your paths straight.

Proverbs 3:6
"in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

May we all do this in Jesus' name. Amen.

 

[cgaviria]

Jesus sits at the righteous right hand of God. Does God's righteous right hand have a beginning or end? If yes, how is He God? If no, then Jesus being at the right hand of God has always been true and will never cease to be true, it's an eternal truth.

God does not "begin" making things true, His word is truth and His word emanates from Himself. All creation was created by God's eternal word, therefore His eternal word was not created, but the source of all creation. If God's word states that Jesus is at His righteous right hand, then this is an eternal truth with no beginning or end, no matter what man says.

John 14:6
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Jesus is God's word of truth and God's word of truth has no beginning or end, everything was and is and will be created from it.

Jesus was not created, He is the truth of God and the truth of God has no beginning or end.

Anyone who says the truth of God(Jesus) has been created, is creating for themselves a false truth of God and a false Messiah.

Humbly seek Him and He will make your paths straight.

Proverbs 3:6
"in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

May we all do this in Jesus' name. Amen.

You speak ignorantly not knowing that his authority to sit at the right hand of God began, hence why the scripture says "sit at my right hand",

A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool. (Psalm 110:1 [ESV])

And his authority to sit at the right hand of God also ends, hence why the scripture says "until". This scripture does not prove your statement that Jesus Christ is uncreated.

 

[cgaviria]

No, if there are two gods then there are two gods.
It doesn't matter if you think that Jesus is a "lesser" god, a created god or even a temporary god; if he is divine, he is god.

Yet the Bible is quite clear that there is only ONE God, and the Jews certainly believed this.
Read the first commandment - "you shall have no other gods before me", Exodus 20:3. Read the OT - why were Israel punished and eventually sent into exile? Because they worshipped other gods. Some of the kings married foreign women who had their own gods, e.g 1 Kings 11:4. And they were criticised and punished for allowing these gods, and false beliefs, to lead Israel away from the truth; see Judges 6:25-26; 1 Kings 14:9;1 Kings 18:18; Amos 2:4. The Shema is "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE," Deuteronomy 6:4.

Either there is ONE God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - or there are 3 gods; the Father is the true, or chief, God and the Son and Spirit are false gods/heavenly beings/angels or whatever. The only way for the Son, and Spirit, to be GOD and yet there only to be ONE God, is if they are one. One and three and three in one - Tri-unity; Trinity.

The Father has no need for the Son, or anyone for that matter, this is where you are in error. The Father has chosen the Son, but he has no need for the Son, but chose to make him Lord and God over his creation for his own good pleasure. So yes, there is one true God, the Father, but he has made Jesus Christ, as a representation of himself, who is also God, and they both act as one, but they are not literally one person, they are two distinct beings, with the Father being the one true God.

 

[Strong in Him]

Where does it say in Scripture that God created Christ first and then they both created the world afterwards?

 

[Chriliman]

You speak ignorantly not knowing that his authority to sit at the right hand of God began, hence why the scripture says "sit at my right hand",


And his authority to sit at the right hand of God also ends, hence why the scripture says "until". This scripture does not prove your statement that Jesus Christ is uncreated.

So you believe God's word of truth has a beginning? Instead of all beginnings coming from His word? You don't believe God's word of truth is eternal, having no beginning or end? Could it be that you perceive His word as beginning, when in reality His word is eternal, having no beginning or end? Could it be that you are wrong and God is right?

These are important questions to work out.

 

[Strong in Him]

The Father has no need for the Son, or anyone for that matter, this is where you are in error. The Father has chosen the Son, but he has no need for the Son, but chose to make him Lord and God over his creation for his own good pleasure.

And where does Scripture say this?

 

[cgaviria]

I just thought if the problem is "no other God", or "no other Saviour" besides me, and then we see saviors (in the plural) it doesnt necessarily rule out that there are others. These would appear to me to be the elect.

And you know what cgaviria, I dont really affiliate myself with any church in particular in the moment to be quite honest with you. As to who I identify with on some level? I have no clue. I grew up in a RC home, drawn to Jesus Christ outside of that. Sought Him on my own first. Not knowing too much of other churches, and setting out my feelers I ended up in with the baptist church for awhile. Then I tried more of a pentacostal, after that I did the gathering in homes church thing (which was much more up my alley) was involved with a couple of those. Then we moved out of our home state and into a very rural setting, and also had a couple of events happen here on our side of things under which I hadnt really sought out a church here. In the last few months I have thought to take that up once more given another change in situation. Now most folks might know who they feel more at home with (when it comes to a particular church) but I still dont know this yet.

I thought to take the mind to belong to no one in particular but to the Lord (and to all of them) and just to make the most out of wherever I might be led to.

Probably a lot more information then you were looking for (I apologize) but I never know quite how to answer that, maybe I should just shorten things up in the future by saying that I am non denominal, even if I ended up sitting in a denominal church, I would just be unsure if thats how I should answer even in the context of that situation.

Why do you ask? Let me ask you, what denomination do you affliate yourself with?

That was the answer I was hoping you'd give. As anyone already claiming any denomination is already in error, hence this saying,

When one of you says, "I am a follower of Paul," and another says, "I follow Apollos," aren't you acting just like people of the world? (1 Corinthians 3:4 [NLV])

We are all of the flock of Jesus Christ, and that is the only thing we should identify ourselves with, and also our geographical location if we wish to be more specific, such as, I am of the church in Florida, or I am of the church in Missouri, or I am of the church in Chicago, or I am of the church in the household of John Doe in Chicago, etc, just how the believers in the early church identified themselves.

I also do not affiliate myself with any denomination, clearly from my response just now.

Have you been baptized in holy spirit?

 

[cgaviria]

And where does Scripture say this?

nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. (Acts 17:25 [ESV])

The Father does not need anyone or anything. To say that he needs someone or anyone, including Jesus Christ, is already a doctrinal error.

 

[cgaviria]

So you believe God's word of truth has a beginning? Instead of all beginnings coming from His word? You don't believe God's word of truth is eternal, having no beginning or end? Could it be that you perceive His word as beginning, when in reality His word is eternal, having no beginning or end? Could it be that you are wrong and God is right?

These are important questions to work out.

The Father alone has no beginning, and from him, Jesus Christ has origination, and thus Jesus Christ is called Alpha, because he is the beginning of this heaven and earth, and he is also called Omega, because he is the completion of this heaven and earth. And although the Son had origination, as any son would, because the word "son" conveys a birthing into existence, he has no end, and neither do the elect, because all chosen by the Father will carry on into the next heaven and earth, and will live into the eons of the eons. Amen.

 

[cgaviria]

Finally addressing the image part. Good.

It follows from the denial that Jesus is the One God. The statement was Jesus is the "exact image" of 'the Father' but then claiming Jesus is inferior to, a lessor god than the Father (like Mormons have a god that created this world who is the offspring of other gods and so on). If the "express image" of Perfection is "lessor" then it follows that the image being talked about is imperfect, otherwise that image would also be Perfect (and so God). In Christianity Jesus is a Perfect (exact) Image of the Father, which is why Christians can say He is God because the exact Image of the Father can only be God. The Father is God - so then is His exact Image, the Son is God and They are One God.

To say the exact image of the Father is a "lessor god" can only mean one is speaking of a imperfect image. Perhaps a different word besides "exact" should be used if one is going to maintain Jesus is inferior to the Father. Just a suggestion.

A lesser god is not imperfect, was Adam himself not created in the image of God, and he was originally perfect and blameless before God before he sinned? An image, although lesser, still reflects the attributes of God perfectly. Why do you argue against Jesus Christ being lesser when he himself admitted it?

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28 [ESV])

 

[cgaviria]

He chose t o humble himself. He didn't have to but he did

He had to because that was the will of the Father.

 

[Chriliman]

The Father does not need anyone or anything. To say that he needs someone or anyone, including Jesus Christ, is already a doctrinal error.

Without the Father, there is no Son. Without the Son, there is no Father. If you want God to be your Father, you need the Son. The Father and the Son are eternally inseparable, no matter how hard you try to separate them. This truth stands, when man fails.

 

[nomadictheist]

The Father alone has no beginning, and from him, Jesus Christ has origination, and thus Jesus Christ is called Alpha, because he is the beginning of this heaven and earth, and he is also called Omega, because he is the completion of this heaven and earth. And although the Son had origination, as any son would, because the word "son" conveys a birthing into existence, he has no end, and neither do the elect, because all chosen by the Father will carry on into the next heaven and earth, and will live into the eons of the eons. Amen.

But God is also called the "Alpha":
Revelation 21:5-8

5 And he who was seated on the throne [God the Father] said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me,“It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Thus we plainly see that the title "Alpha and Omega" does not indicate beginning (or end) of personal being, but rather origin of all things that have being.

 

[cgaviria]

But God is also called the "Alpha":
Revelation 21:5-8

5 And he who was seated on the throne [God the Father] said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me,“It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Thus we plainly see that the title "Alpha and Omega" does not indicate beginning (or end) of personal being, but rather origin of all things that have being.

Jesus Christ is the alpha because he was brought forth into existence in the beginning to then bring forth beginning to this heaven and earth. Only the Father existed before the beginning.

 

[cgaviria]

Without the Father, there is no Son. Without the Son, there is no Father. If you want God to be your Father, you need the Son. The Father and the Son are eternally inseparable, no matter how hard you try to separate them. This truth stands, when man fails.

Wrong. The Father needs no one. To say that the Father needed the Son is speaking without understanding.

 

[nomadictheist]

Jesus Christ is the alpha because he was brought forth into existence in the beginning to then bring forth beginning to this heaven and earth. Only the Father existed before the beginning.

So you say, but the Bible says differently:

"He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (John 1:2-3)

"6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

So we plainly see that without Jesus, nothing was made that was made. This means that Jesus could not have been made, for God would have had to make Jesus without Jesus.

And of course, we have in addition to that the testimony of the apostle John that Jesus was in the beginning with God.

 

[cgaviria]

So you say, but the Bible says differently:

"He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (John 1:2-3)

"6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

So we plainly see that without Jesus, nothing was made that was made. This means that Jesus could not have been made, for God would have had to make Jesus without Jesus.

And of course, we have in addition to that the testimony of the apostle John that Jesus was in the beginning with God.

Nope, in both verses "things" was added into the English translations and are not part of the original text, you can see for yourself in these interlinears,

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-3.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/8-6.htm

http://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

"Panta" means "all". In these scriptures, it refers to all that are alive, not all "things", as all "things" were not created by Jesus, because the earth and water already existed before he began speaking. However, all living beings did originate from Jesus Christ, since he spoke all life into existence, including angels.