Why the Sabbath so Important to SDA explained

[BobRyan]

So its fair to say SDA believes christians who don't observe the sabbath are 'apostates' then?
Its something i can read from your post.

Nope - SDAs believe that there are saved Christians in all denominations.

For example (using another commandment as the example for neutral illustration) Some people have no problem with prayers to the dead and using images in worship - SDAs differ with that - but we don't say that people who do that in their denomination are not saved.

 

[NBB]

Nope - SDAs believe that there are saved Christians in all denominations.

For example (using another commandment as the example for neutral illustration) Some people have no problem with prayers to the dead and using images in worship - SDAs differ with that - but we don't say that people who do that in their denomination are not saved.

So if not the christians then the denominations are all apostates except sabbath keeping ones?

 

[BobRyan]

My statement was not "the Bible is the Word of God" (Which of course everyone accepts) -- rather it was specifically about the hotly debated topic of the "Ten Commandments" where for example in the "Sabbath and the Law" forum it is the "TEN" that are primarily being discussed. A very large part of the group that debates the Sabbath over in that forum - considers the TEN as nothing more than "Old Covenant". .

Hold it. That has not been any kind of "hotly debated topic" here. .

I think it is fair to say that we are not making these posts in the "Sabbath and the Law" forum -- but in general theology forum.

So it is no wonder you edited my post as follows before giving your response

this is how you presented it.

BobRyan said: ↑
My statement was not "the Bible is the Word of God" (Which of course everyone accepts) -- rather it was specifically about the hotly debated topic of the "Ten Commandments"....

Carefully deleting out every reference to the context of "Sabbath and the Law" forum where a number of people are consistently position the TEN as "just Old Covenant" -or as THE Old Covenant.

Not sure why

 

[BobRyan]

If you read it and have a case to make against the Scriptural basis for Sunday worship, go ahead. But no strategic end runs or cross-examining of the other person, please.

I did not name or call out 'any other persons' - I named "an entire forum" as the place were a certain POV is presented against the Ten - as being "Old Covenant"

 

[BobRyan]

So if not the christians then the denominations are all apostates except sabbath keeping ones?

Almost every denomination considers itself to have some distinctive(s) - some beliefs that are its reason for existing as a distinct denomination - and views other denominations who reject that disctinctive POV as being incorrect on that point. The SDA denomination is no different in that respect.

So our statement is not "denominations are all apostates" because we differ with them on some doctrines. In fact we have a lot of high praise for many of the Protestant Reformers and a key figure in movements prior to the SDA denomination (William Miller) was also not a Sabbath keeper.

This is not a name-calling exercise - it is just a thread for looking at a doctrine in the Bible - regarding the Ten Commandments - specifically the Sabbath Commandment

 

[BobRyan]

I earlier reproduced part of a link that explains the view of the Christian churches which observe Sunday worship. It's still available.

Where? on this thread? IN one of the thousands of threads on this "General Theology" Forum?

I have posted my own summation of the 3 main positions on this topic

There are 3 main positions here.

1. The Ten Commandments continue to apply to all mankind from OT to NT and the Sabbath is not changed at all from its seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (Ex 20:10) form.

2. The Ten Commandments continue to apply to all mankind from OT to NT and the Sabbath is edited and re-pointed to week-day-1 (Sunday) after the cross.

3. The Ten are nailed to the cross as "Old Covenant" or at the very least the Sabbath is nailed to the cross "as Old Covenant" and only nine remain or none remain.

As I understand your view - it is some form of #2 above.

 

[Albion]

I did not name or call out 'any other persons' - I named "an entire forum" as the place were a certain POV is presented against the Ten - as being "Old Covenant"

I probably should have used more precise wording in my post, but none of what you took me to be saying there was, in reality, what I was talking about.

The other person was me, and I was referring to the technique you were using on me in your posts rather than just telling us what your position on Sunday worship is and why you think it is the correct one.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

=============================

There are 3 main positions here.

1. The Ten Commandments continue to apply to all mankind from OT to NT and the Sabbath is not changed at all from its seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (Ex 20:10) form.

2. The Ten Commandments continue to apply to all mankind from OT to NT and the Sabbath is edited and re-pointed to week-day-1 (Sunday) after the cross.

3. The Ten are nailed to the cross as "Old Covenant" or at the very least the Sabbath is nailed to the cross "as Old Covenant" and only nine remain or none remain.

This is a great summary of the conclusions people come to but it still show a lack of understanding of the Assumptions that are being made. let me list the 3 different views. All views are different method of interpretation of the Scripture. Each in contrast with the other.

Method 1
Covenant Theology View: is a framework for biblical interpretations of the bible, and a conceptual overview and interpretive framework for understanding the overall structure of the Bible. It uses the theological concept of a covenant as an organizing principle for Christian theology. In this view Covenants once established are continual and not replaced by any covenants that come after it. In fact if you are in a later covenant you are automatically in a prior covenant. the later covenant automatically incorporates the prior covenant. For example the Abraham was automatically part of the Creation Covenant, Adam's Covenant and Noah's Covenant when he received his Covenant. David was part of Moses Covenant, Abraham Covenant, Noah's Covenant, Adam's Covenant & the Creation Covenant when he received his covenant , When believers are born again they are born in the new covenants which included ALL the prior Coven\ants. This is the oldest view on covenants. SDA's, Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Reformers use this method.

Method 2
New Covenant Theology: Is a Theological frame work for interpreting the Bible, Which put Christ at the center the redemption and views Christ as the fulfillment of All prior covenants. All Prior Covenant end at Him, with that all laws end and all ending and a new law being established with its own requirements. the youngest of the view, most fundamental use this view.

Method 3
Dispensational Theology : is a framework for interpretations of the bible,The bible is divided up into dispensations or era's, each one different from the previous era. Each having different stewards, laws and requirements. Developed in the 1800 the author John Darby among the Plymouth Breathen it is responsible for influencing the Scofield bible, DL moody, the Niagara Conference & Dallas Theological Seminary

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

We do no longer live under the Mosaic Law, but under the grace of Jesus Christ and His commandments. Jesus did command to keep 9 of the 10 Mosaic Laws, except for Sabbath.

That being said; Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:"

These are both interesting Scriptures, in face of the fact that, the Jews celebrate Saturday as their Sabbath, and the Christians celebrate Sunday as the Lord's Day or firstfruits. We are told to be fully persuaded that what we are doing is pleasing to God. We are to celebrate with a clear conscience. Whatever day you esteem, do it as unto the Lord.

Each Christian must follow the dictates of his own conscience in matters not specifically commanded or prohibited in Scripture. Since conscience is a God given mechanism to warn, and responds to the highest standard of moral law in the mind, it is not sensible to train yourself to ignore it. Rather, respond to its compunctions and as you mature, by learning more, your mind will not alert it to those things which are not essential.

God is not so interested in the technicality of what day we celebrate as He is in the fact that we have chosen an individual day and set it aside to worship. He wants our heart to be in worshipping Him. We know that Jesus said in Mark:

Mark 2:27 "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

You see from this it is not the day that is important, but the fact that we choose to worship God one day a week.

Romans 14:6 "He that regardeth the day, regardeth [it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard [it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks."

This verse tells us that the strong believer eats whatever he pleases and thanks the Lord. The weak brother eats according to his ceremonial diet and thanks the Lord that he made a sacrifice on His behalf. In either case, the believer thanks the Lord, so the motive is the same. Whether weak or strong, the motive behind a believer’s decisions about issues of conscience must be to please the Lord.

Same applies for Christmas, because nowhere in the Bible we find, that Jesus was born on 24th/25th of December. But, we should celebrate Jesus' birth, and on day we do that is irrelevant, as long as we do it in Spirit and faith, as you cannot please God without faith. Hence I celebrate Jesus' birth several times a year.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

We do no longer live under the Mosaic Law, but under the grace of Jesus Christ and His commandments. Jesus did command to keep 9 of the 10 Mosaic Laws, except for Sabbath.

welcome New Covenant Theologian , i am Covenant Theologian so i disagree

That being said; Romans 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

Do you see Sabbath mentioned there, I don't

Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:"

right he is telling them not to let Jews tell them how to observe the festivals and the sabbath, he is not saying do keep them. don't let them tell you how to keep them

These are both interesting Scriptures, in face of the fact that, the Jews celebrate Saturday as their Sabbath, and the Christians celebrate Sunday as the Lord's Day or firstfruits. We are told to be fully persuaded that what we are doing is pleasing to God. We are to celebrate with a clear conscience. Whatever day you esteem, do it as unto the Lord.

yes paul added this festival to the practices of the church. they regarded it as an addition not a replacement for the sabbath, like how we view prayer meeting, that is why Sylverster I had to transfer the holiness of the day to the first day at the time of Constantine because they still regarded Sabbath as a holy day of rest.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

So if not the Christians then the denominations are all apostates except sabbath keeping ones?

no but the approach to interpretating the scripture is wrong.

This is a great summary of the conclusions people come to but it still show a lack of understanding of the Assumptions that are being made. let me list the 3 different views. All views are different method of interpretation of the Scripture. Each in contrast with the other.

Method 1
Covenant Theology View: is a framework for biblical interpretations of the bible, and a conceptual overview and interpretive framework for understanding the overall structure of the Bible. It uses the theological concept of a covenant as an organizing principle for Christian theology. In this view Covenants once established are continual and not replaced by any covenants that come after it. In fact if you are in a later covenant you are automatically in a prior covenant. the later covenant automatically incorporates the prior covenant. For example the Abraham was automatically part of the Creation Covenant, Adam's Covenant and Noah's Covenant when he received his Covenant. David was part of Moses Covenant, Abraham Covenant, Noah's Covenant, Adam's Covenant & the Creation Covenant when he received his covenant , When believers are born again they are born in the new covenants which included ALL the prior Coven\ants. This is the oldest view on covenants. SDA's, Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Reformers use this method.

Method 2
New Covenant Theology: Is a Theological frame work for interpreting the Bible, Which put Christ at the center the redemption and views Christ as the fulfillment of All prior covenants. All Prior Covenant end at Him, with that all laws end and all ending and a new law being established with its own requirements. the youngest of the view, most fundamental use this view.

Method 3
Dispensational Theology : is a framework for interpretations of the bible,The bible is divided up into dispensations or era's, each one different from the previous era. Each having different stewards, laws and requirements. Developed in the 1800 the author John Darby among the Plymouth Breathen it is responsible for influencing the Scofield bible, DL moody, the Niagara Conference & Dallas Theological Seminary

so identity your method and realize there is more then yours out there and then address the underlying assumptions

 

[BobRyan]

We do no longer live under the Mosaic Law, but under the grace of Jesus Christ and His commandments. Jesus did command to keep 9 of the 10 Mosaic Laws, except for Sabbath.

1. Jesus' custom was to lead out in Sabbath services according to the Gospel account.
Luke 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.

2.. James 2 says to "break one commandment is to break them all" - if you are argument is that it was Jesus' custom to consistently break one of the commandments before the cross-event even happened then that would be a "problem" according to James 2.

3. What is more even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" -- 1 John 3:4 - how much more so "before the cross".

4. Jesus said not to accuse Him of breaking the Law of God - in Matt 5 because He was not doing it nor even teaching it.


Question for you: Is it fair to say that you view at least one of the Ten Commandments to be "old Covenant" even though all Ten are found in the "Mosaic Law" as well as "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 also in the Law of Moses, and "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5 in the Law of Moses?

Since you posted this -

God is not so interested in the technicality of what day we celebrate as He is in the fact that we have chosen an individual day and set it aside to worship.

That appears to be consistent with the #3 option in post #17


========================== As for Rom 14

Romans 14:5 One man observes one day above another while another man observes every day.

That speaks of the Bible annual approved Holy days of Lev 23 - and by direct contrast --> in Gal 4 observing even one of the Roman days was considered to be a bad thing.

Gal 4:10 You meticulously observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

 

[BobRyan]

These are both interesting Scriptures, in face of the fact that, the Jews celebrate Saturday as their Sabbath, and the Christians celebrate Sunday as the Lord's Day or firstfruits.

No doubt the Jews celebrate the 7th day (Friday evening to Saturday evening) as the Sabbath and many Christians celebrate the 1st day of the week as the Sabbath since Jesus was raised from the dead on Sunday.

And if you could find the texts showing that just like we see "every Sabbath" Gospel preaching services in the synagogue - for both both gentiles and Jews in Acts 18:4 -- so too they also had "every week-day-1" Gospel preaching services in the NT, that would certainly be of great significance for this topic.

 

[BobRyan]

telling us what your position on Sunday worship is and why you think it is the correct one.

My position is that "the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH)" Ex 20:10 is an accurate statement in the Bible.

As for "worship services" - I have attended them at one time or another on every day of the week. But it is my understanding that the Sabbath commandment refers to the seventh day of the week as the weekly day set aside as holy, even if I attend a weekly Wednesday prayer meeting where there is a worship service going on for that prayer meeting.