Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

Lovely Lane · Jun 1, 2013

OpenDoor said:
So you would ask if they were insulting you?

The (if you ever had) is because I do not know if you ever witnessed to anyone.

Can you answer my question please.

I doubt that some types ever witnessed unless it is on a board like CF, maybe to a friend in the same faith. my best guess.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
Scripture suggests a motive for Christ's passion in these words:
When we were still helpless, at the appointed time, Christ died for the godless. You could hardly find anyone ready to die even for someone upright; though it is just possible that, for a really good person, someone might undertake to die. So it is proof of God's own love for us, that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. (Romans 5:6-8)

MoreCoffee · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:

I have yet to see a supporter of Penal Substitutionary Atonement produce any passages that support the more odious elements of the theory, specifically

God pouring out wrath upon Jesus while he suffered and died.
Christ substituting himself in the punishment due for all the sins of all humankind.

My guess is that no passages can be found in either testament that support these elements of the theory.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
I have yet to see a supporter of Penal Substitutionary Atonement produce any passages that support the more odious elements of the theory, specifically

God pouring out wrath upon Jesus while he suffered and died.

Christ substituting himself in the punishment due for all the sins of all humankind.

My guess is that no passages can be found in either testament that support these elements of the theory.

I'm not aware of such teachings in Scripture. Even Adam and Eve, whose sin brought on the Fall, were warned with the consequences of disobedience (which was not wrath, but death, ie separation from the Author of life, as in sin they separated themselves from God).

Crandaddy · Jun 1, 2013

Clare73 said:
Yes, God's justice requires punishment for law breaking, just as does our justice system.

Justice is not accomplished if the penalty is not paid, just as in our justice system.

But divine justice is always accomplished, for God is loser to no man.

Jesus paid the penalty due on our sin at the Final Judgment.

Jesus didn't "fill" us with righteousness until he had first "emptied" us of defilement by paying its penalty.

Well, I don't think Divine justice is just like our justice system, but rather analogous to it. And I think His emptying us of defilement and His filling us with righteousness are in reality two sides of the same coin (as defilement, or sin, has in itself no substantial content to be removed from us). But otherwise, I think you're on the right track.

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
So how does the view accord with Christ as the sacrificial lamb, our passover, etc. ?

Well, Christ was typified in several ways in the OT.

1) the Passover Lamb

2) the sin sacrifice

3) the sin bearer (sacrifice, altar, High Priest)

4) the kinsman-redeemer who redeems from loss

5) the gift devoted to God's justice

6) the cleansing blood

Each did not include all the meanings of all the others.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

Fireinfolding said:
Wrath = land darkened, thus land is darkened on the cross. In a little wrath he hides his face, Jesus asks why hast thou forsaken me? Job says it can be done against a nation or a man, and Jesus died for the nation. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Says this also

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

It's interesting that Matthew leaves this cry in Aramaic;
the translation I've read directly from the Aramaic is "My God, my God for this was I kept."

Then take a look at the Psalm Christ is quoting:

"O God, my God, hear me; why have you forsaken me ?
The words of my transgressions are far from my salvation.
O my God, I will cry out by day, but you will not hear me;
And by night, but not for understanding in me." (LXX)

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me; why so far from saving me, from the words of my roar ? O my God ! I call out by day, but you answer me not; and by night, but there is no respite for me." (Masoretic)

When did God refuse to hear Jesus ?

Who is Christ speaking for on the cross ? For His benefit, or ours ? On behalf of Himself, or those He came to save ?

To read the Psalm in full, it begins with the despair of mankind in the state of separation from God, and then proceeds with a prophetic recounting of the crucifixion, and ends with the joy of restoration (including the gentiles) to God.

God cannot abandon Himself; Jesus Christ is God, the Son of God incarnate. He humbled Himself voluntarily for us, and even to crucifixion on our behalf/toward our salvation.

In case there is any doubt of His purpose, Christ speaks the opening lines of the Psalm which evokes (or should) the rest of it.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

Clare73 said:
Well, Christ was typified in several ways in the OT.

1) the Passover Lamb

2) the sin sacrifice

3) the sin bearer (sacrifice, altar, High Priest)

4) the kinsman-redeemer who redeems from loss

5) the gift devoted to God's justice

6) the cleansing blood

Each did not include all the meanings of all the others.

In Jesus Christ, all things are recapitulated - not as pieces, but as a whole, in a person.

What is God's justice ? To be sacrificed for our sake, that we may be restored to God (which we could not do ourselves, and which is an ontological redemption by grace through adoption).

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
"Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:4-5

I don't understand how this is understood to demonstrate that the wrath of God was visited on Christ, Who is God ...

I'm at a loss to explain it any plainer than the word of God in Isa 53.

Are you saying God's chastisement is his kindness?

The Mercy seat was the "place" of God among us in the OT, the restoration of us to God.

Christ, as our "mercy seat" was voluntarily crucified to restore us to relationship with God.
This has the effect of "holding back His wrath", but is more so and ontological possibility/promise for us.

As I stated, Isaiah is a better place to go than Leviticus for that understanding.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

Clare73 said:
I'm at a loss to explain it any plainer than the word of God in Isa 53.

Are you saying God's chastisement is his kindness?

As I stated, Isaiah is a better place to go than Leviticus for that understanding.

Kaporet is a "thing of cleansing/wiping out"; hilastarion means also expiation.

Chastisement is for correction; and death was the result of sin.

Christ conquered death by becoming as us (taking on our mortality).

MamaZ · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
Kaporet is a "thing of cleansing/wiping out"; hilastarion means also expiation.

Chastisement is for correction; and death was the result of sin.

Christ conquered death by becoming as us (taking on our mortality).

He became sin for us.. He is our righteousness..

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

MamaZ said:
He became sin for us.. He is our righteousness..

He became as a 'sin-offering' for us, that we are set aright with God through faith in His blood and by His resurrection we are restored ...

Crandaddy · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla,

What do you understand by 1 Pet. 2:24?

"He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

MoreCoffee said:
I have yet to see a supporter of Penal Substitutionary Atonement produce any passages that support the more odious elements of the theory, specifically

God pouring out wrath upon Jesus while he suffered and died.

Christ substituting himself in the punishment due for all the sins of all humankind.

My guess is that no passages can be found in either testament that support these elements of the theory.

Since you cannot explain the meaning of Ro 3:25-26 consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture
(as shown [post=63164645]here[/post] and [post=63167342]here[/post]), you are in no position to assert penal substitionary atonement is not Biblical.

Penal substitutionary atonement is the plain teaching of Ro 3:25-26, where sacrificial payment of the punishment on sin is indicated.

Isa 53:5 expliciity states it: the chastisement that brought us peace was upon him."

And dying for the sin of all mankind is not consistent with the rest of Scripture, nor the sovereignty of God.

So why do you wrestle the word of God (2Ti 3:16) which you cannot even understand or explain?

MamaZ · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
He became as a 'sin-offering' for us, that we are set aright with God through faith in His blood and by His resurrection we are restored ...

2 Corinthians 5:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

So we see here that He made Christ to be sin for us..

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

Crandaddy said:
Thekla,

What do you understand by 1 Pet. 2:24?

"He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross, so that, free from sin, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed."

He became as us - took on flesh, and the Law's judgement - that we are restored to God through Him.

Remember, because of sin death entered, and because of death we sin. The two are linked, both in the Fall (if you eat of this/trespass the command ... you will die ) reiterated by Paul.

By His conquering death, we are no longer slaves to death or sin but can be restored to right relationship with God, with others, and ourselves.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

MamaZ said:
2 Corinthians 5:21

New King James Version (NKJV)

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

So we see here that He made Christ to be sin for us..

The term means both sin/sin offering.

We are restored to God by His offering of Himself.

MamaZ · Jun 1, 2013

Thekla said:
The term means both sin/sin offering.

We are restored to God by His offering of Himself.

Not all who believe they are restored by Him offering Himself up for our sin are actually restored. For one must be born again. One must have new life in Christ Jesus.

Thekla · Jun 1, 2013

MamaZ said:
Not all who believe they are restored by Him offering Himself up for our sin are actually restored. For one must be born again. One must have new life in Christ Jesus.

It is true that our salvation is a matter of His judgement, not ours, for sure.

"Not all who say Lord, Lord ..."

Clare73 · Jun 1, 2013

Crandaddy said:
Well, I don't think Divine justice is just like our justice system, but rather analogous to it.

You've got it backwards.

Our justice system is patterned on the divine justice system revealed in Scripture.

And I think His emptying us of defilement and His filling us with righteousness are in reality two sides of the same coin (as defilement, or sin, has in itself no substantial content to be removed from us).

Nor does righteousness have any content which fills.

But otherwise, I think you're on the right track.

Why the Protestant view of the Cross is wrong.

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