WHY THE LORD'S DAY IS NOT SATURDAY

[Leaf473]

I concede I got mixed up and thought you were posting that 2 Tim 3:16 as evidence that all commandments in scripture apply at all times. But that was not why posted that version. I apologize for the mixup. But there is still a problem, I believe.

I applaud this.

I think we all agree that if we want to be great in God's Kingdom, we will want to be a servant of all.

 

[expos4ever]

I only proves thaat "justified by works of the law" was a concept the Jews had but the gentiles did not.

No it proves more than this - it proves that Paul believes that the Jews were the only ones under the Law of Moses.

But prove me wrong - please offer a counterargument to post 1096 where the argument is laid out in as careful detail as I can muster. Explain to us how my argument does not successfully show that, taken together as a unit, verses 28 and 29 prove that Paul believes that the Law only applied to Jews.

 

[Leaf473]

Even your signature was proven to be wrong, but you still have it - the vast majority of Christian denomination believe that a physical observance of Sabbath has ended with Christ.

Yep, when Christians say it's good to keep the Ten Commandments, they almost always mean a "Sunday" version.

 

[Leaf473]

Here is how I see it

Under the New Covenant the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is "written on the heart" Jer 31:31-34

And that is how we "establish the Law" as even Paul notes in Heb 8:6-12

Instead of extreme inference and creative writing -- the text just says it for us.

Well, I think we agree there

But one thing,
Does God do the writing on our hearts,
or do we do the writing?

 

[expos4ever]

I think you are making a whole doctrine from the word "or".

This sounds like a way of conceding you cannot address my argument. The "or", of course, is extremely important.

No one is justified by works of the law or the law of works, not Jew or Gentile- all is justified by faith.

All true, but a diversion. Please explain how verses 28 and 29, taken together, do not force us to conclude that Paul believes that only Jews are under the law. I have spelled out my argument in hideous detail and precision - surely you know you are obligated to at least challenge that argument.

Good works is a result of faith and those with faith produce good works since that is what God created us to do. Ephesians 2:10

True again, but another diversion.

This whole doctrine you are trying to create that Gentiles do not have the law, but Jews do, it's not one from scripture.

Obvious begging the question! If you are correct, how come you consistently evade my clear, precise argument about the logical implications of verses 28 and 29, considered as a unit.

I suspect you will never actually address my argument, but I will try to pin you down:

Consider this very abstract, general statement:

We maintain that a person's justification has nothing to do with engaging in behaviour X; or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

Is it not an undeniable fact of logic that this block of text, as unit, logically forces us to conclude that only group A is able to engage in behaviour X?

If group B were, in fact, capable of engaging in behaviour X, why would I need to add the following qualification?:

or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This sounds like a way of conceding you cannot address my argument. The "or", of course, is extremely important.

All true, but a diversion. Please explain how verses 28 and 29, taken together, do not force us to conclude that Paul believes that only Jews are under the law. I have spelled out my argument in hideous detail and precision - surely you know you are obligated to at least challenge that argument.

True again, but another diversion.

Obvious begging the question! If you are correct, how come you consistently evade my clear, precise argument about the logical implications of verses 28 and 29, considered as a unit.

I suspect you will never actually address my argument, but I will try to pin you down:

Consider this very abstract, general statement:

We maintain that a person's justification has nothing to do with engaging in behaviour X; or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

Is it not an undeniable fact of logic that this block of text, as unit, logically forces us to conclude that only group A is able to engage in behaviour X?

If group B were, in fact, capable of engaging in behaviour X, why would I need to add the following qualification?:

or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

So who are the saints (saved) in this verse? Are you claiming only Jews are God's saints and the only ones saved?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Leaf473]

Revelation 14 could be referring to Commandments that Jesus gave, or it could be referring to generally living in God's ways.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 27:34 - New American Standard Bible

These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel on Mount Sinai.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[expos4ever]

So who are the saints (saved) in this verse? Are you claiming only Jews are God's saints and the only ones saved?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

No I am not saying this.

Why do you continue to evade my question by asking other questions? Here it is yet again:

Consider this very abstract, general statement:

We maintain that a person's justification has nothing to do with engaging in behaviour X; or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

Is it not an undeniable fact of logic that this block of text, as unit, logically forces us to conclude that only group A is able to engage in behaviour X?

If group B were, in fact, capable of engaging in behaviour X, why would I need to add the following qualification?:

or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

This is really a very simple question - why are you not answering it?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No I am not saying this.

Why do you continue to evade my question by asking other questions? Here it is yet again:

Consider this very abstract, general statement:

We maintain that a person's justification has nothing to do with engaging in behaviour X; or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

Is it not an undeniable fact of logic that this block of text, as unit, logically forces us to conclude that only group A is able to engage in behaviour X?

If group B were, in fact, capable of engaging in behaviour X, why would I need to add the following qualification?:

or is justification only available for group A? Is not justification also available to group B as well? Yes, justification is available to both groups A and B.

This is really a very simple question - why are you not answering it?

One affects the other. You keep saying the Gentiles do not have the law but scripture gives an example of a saved person and they are with law - keeping God's commandments- so either only Jews are saved (those with law according to you) or you have a misunderstanding of Paul's writings, which we have warning of that many people do. 2 Peter 3:16

 

[Leaf473]

It is possible for gentiles to not have the law of Moses yet still keep the Commandments of God.

 

[trophy33]

So who are the saints (saved) in this verse? Are you claiming only Jews are God's saints and the only ones saved?

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Commandment to Adam not to eat from the tree, commandment to Noah to build the ark, commandment to Abram to leave his country and to move to another one, commandment to Israel to keep Sabbath... There are many commandments of God that do not apply today.

We are to keep the commandments that are given to us. And we are not given any commandment to observe the Sabbath or to keep the Mosaic Law.

Its not specified what commandments are meant, but regarding the context, its:
a) Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters (verse 6)
b) Not to worship the beast (verse 9)

 

[trophy33]

No doubt - but false accusations are funny in that they need actual facts to become true ones.

True. But this thread is not titled "SDA theology" and even if you wanted to attack it - you would need actual facts.

Because to prove something wrong - you need an actual fact.

I don't see how this is the hard part.

My signature line does not say that the majority of Christian denominations do not edit the Sabbath. I say that they include the Sabbath - the 4th commandment in the TEN. And even you know you cannot get to TEN without FOUR.

Those false accusations are made out of the abundance of what you do not know. But no matter - I am always happy to share actual facts.

===================

THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody​

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THE TEN COMMANDMENTS​

​

BY DWIGHT L. MOODY​

​

"THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?​

​

"I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.​

​

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27) ​

​

"It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.​

​

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?​

​

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HOW TO OBSERVE THE SABBATH​

​

"Sabbath" means "rest," and the meaning of the word gives a hint as to the true way to observe the day. God rested after creation, and ordained the Sabbath as a rest for man. He blessed it and hallowed it. Remember the rest-day to keep it holy. It is the day when the body may be refreshed and strengthened after six days of labor, and the soul drawn into closer fellowship with its Maker.​

​

"True observance of the Sabbath may be considered under two general heads:​

​

1. cessation from ordinary secular work, and
2. religious exercises.

I wonder if even you know what is the point of this post of yours.

That the vast majority of denominations do not consider the 4th commandment to be in place, but... its a false accusation... something something facts, look, here is somebody who tells us to keep Sabbath, lets keep Sabbath?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Commandment to Adam not to eat from the tree, commandment to Noah to build the ark, commandment to Abram to leave his country and to move to another one, commandment to Israel to keep Sabbath... There are many commandments of God that do not apply today.

We are to keep the commandments that are given to us. And we are not given any commandment to observe the Sabbath or to keep the Mosaic Law.

Why are you isolating the Sabbath commandment, when God did not? Yes God gave a command to Noah to build an ark and its a silly comparison to compare that to God not wanting His people to profane HIS holy day and part of God's eternal commandments written in stone by His own finger now in the hearts and minds of His people. Hebrews 8:10

If the Sabbath goes all of God's commandments go because God said, we cannot add or subtract to His commandments Duet 4:2. God placed together this unit of Ten, these are His works Exodus 32:16 and specifically blessed the Sabbath commandment and no man can reverse Numbers 23:20, no matter how much they want to

How many other commandments are we free to break from God's unit of Ten? The Ten Commandments are not suggestions or multiple choice. If you break one you break them all. James 2:10-12

God made individual covenants with His people, but made a Nation-wide covenant with Israel His chosen people, God never made a covenant with Gentiles and if we are in Christ we are grafted into God's chosen people through our faith Gal 2:26-28.

Exodus 20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Its not specified what commandments are meant, but regarding the context, its:
a) Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. Worship the One who made the heavens and the earth and the sea and the springs of waters (verse 6)
b) Not to worship the beast (verse 9)

Where do you see this verse verbatim? The Sabbath commandment, the commandment about worship....

Revelation 14: 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

We either worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 or we worship in vain obeying the traditions of man over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9 Jesus quoting directly from the Ten Commandments

In Revelation it shows the fruit of a saved person

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The Sabbath is one of God's commandments and part of His Truth Psalms 119:151

 

[trophy33]

Why are you isolating the Sabbath commandment, when God did not?

Because you do not care about others. Either Christians keep them anyway or you are not interested in them, for example in burning witches. Its always about Sabbath, only.

 

[trophy33]

Where do you see this verse verbatim? The Sabbath commandment, the commandment about worship....

Revelation 14: 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

We either worship God in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 or we worship in vain obeying the traditions of man over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9 Jesus quoting directly from the Ten Commandments

In Revelation it shows the fruit of a saved person

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The Sabbath is one of God's commandments and part of His Truth Psalms 119:151

Why are you making a puzzle of verses again?

The context of Revelation does not specify what commandments. From the context, its probably about monotheism (fear and worship the true God only). The rest is your fantasy.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Because you do not care about others. Either Christians keep them anyway or you are not interested in them, for example in burning witches.

You know what is in my heart how? And I posted all of the Ten Commandments because I don't care about them. Burning witches? Do you even hear yourself?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why are you making a puzzle of verses again?

The context of Revelation does not specify what commandments. From the context, its probably about monotheism (fear and worship the true God only). The rest is your fantasy.

The bible is not in one verse, the whole bible is God's Word and to understand it properly, it reveals itself. The verbiage in Revelation 14:7 is identical to the Sabbath and the Sabbath is about worship. The day God set aside sanctified for holy use-worship

How do I know the Sabbath is part of God's commandments, because God said so. Exodus 20:6 Exodus 32:16, Exodus 31:18

 

[trophy33]

You know what is in my heart how? And I posted all of the Ten Commandments because I don't care about them. Burning witches? Do you even hear yourself?

I know what is in your posts.

You do not care about the 9, because Christians keep them anyway, so its not the point why you are trying to put us under them.

Yes, burning witches, stoning homosexuals and adulterers, returning wives who are not virgins etc - all in the Law. But you do not keep it, I hope.

 

[trophy33]

The bible is not in one verse, the whole bible is God's Word and to understand it properly, it reveals itself. The verbiage in Revelation 14L:7 is identical to the Sabbath and the Sabbath is about worship. The day God set aside sanctified for holy use-worship

How do I know the Sabbath is part of God's commandments, because God said so. Exodus 20:6 Exodus 32:16, Exodus 31:18

We have already been through this. Your individual composing of verses together as you like them is not God's Word.