Why the effort?

[vipertaja]

Lets pretend for this thread that the creationist/ID goals aren't purely political or the result of indoctrination.

Essentially all creationism has to stand on is the genesis bit in the beginning of the bible. When one breaks it all down it's the be all and end all of the whole "controversy". So in essense when untold millions of dollars are wasted pretty much for nothing the whole thing has been summed up in the bible the whole time. People who read it will know of the existence of that bit of text. Essentially the regular evangelising should do the same thing for less money.

Of course I know that through creationism these beliefs are intended to be "forcefed to everyone and in the end it's all because of power or fanatical belief, but as I said lets not bring that into this.

Also...I find it weird that creationists want to influence politics if their religion were to be true...concidering what has usually happened when christianity gets political power...well pretty much when ANY strongly held ideology gets such power over a nations laws. Somehow even though I can easily see this lust in the leaders, yet their supposed beliefs are said to honour modesty and "live and let live" (lets also ignore all the raping and genocides in the bible for this thread, ok?)

Shouldn't they be happy since their beliefs are written down in a book and can't be taken away, unlike political power? They think they are right and that's fine...it doesn't fit pecisely together with observed science, but why should it? After all they believe in miracles that cannot be proved. Why do they want to mix their belief with the very thing that it doesn't fit into?
Hammering a square block into a round hole anyone?

 

[vipertaja]

In my almost supernatural consistency I managed to exclude politics and bring
it up as well all in the opening post of my own thread.

Sigh...oh well. I have the omnimax characteristics so I can contradict myself as
much as I like.

 

[Micaiah]

Lets pretend for this thread that the creationist/ID goals aren't purely political or the result of indoctrination.

Why pretend. Most YEC's would be repulsed by those who push this line for purely political or financial gain.

Essentially all creationism has to stand on is the genesis bit in the beginning of the bible. When one breaks it all down it's the be all and end all of the whole "controversy".

The same claim could be made about any important Christian beliefs.

So in essence when untold millions of dollars are wasted pretty much for nothing the whole thing has been summed up in the bible the whole time. People who read it will know of the existence of that bit of text. Essentially the regular evangelising should do the same thing for less money.

So you think any money spent investigating the question of origins is a waste, or is it just when Christians do this.

Of course I know that through creationism these beliefs are intended to be "forcefed to everyone and in the end it's all because of power or fanatical belief, but as I said lets not bring that into this.

You must be talking here about the teaching of origins in school apart from God. eg evolution.

Also...I find it weird that creationists want to influence politics if their religion were to be true...

We don't like our children being indoctrinated with atheistic propaganda. We don't like being told in school text books that the Bible's teaching on creation is myth. We have as much right as the next person to express our concerns publicly and politically.

concidering what has usually happened when christianity gets political power...well pretty much when ANY strongly held ideology gets such power over a nations laws.

If a Christian leader follows Christian teaching the result can only be beneficial to a nation. The same cannot be said of other ideologies, including humanism. The mass murder we are witnessing under the label of abortion, family breakdown, and rampant immorality are typical outcomes witnessed in western societies. I believe a simple explanation for this is that people think they know more than God.

Somehow even though I can easily see this lust in the leaders,

Examples or just bigoted cynicism?.

yet their supposed beliefs are said to honour modesty and "live and let live" (lets also ignore all the raping and genocides in the bible for this thread, ok?)

This is not an accurate characterization of Christian teaching. We are commissioned by God to bear witness to all men. We seek to help all men come to the truth so they can receive God's gift of life, and avoid God's judgement.

Shouldn't they be happy since their beliefs are written down in a book and can't be taken away, unlike political power?

Yes we are glad that the Creator has revealed something about Creation in Genesis.

They think they are right and that's fine...

We think God is right and as the divine Creator is supremely qualified to comment on what happened at the time of Creation. He alone was there.

it doesn't fit precisely together with observed science,

It doesn't fit at all with popular science.

but why should it? After all they believe in miracles that cannot be proved. Why do they want to mix their belief with the very thing that it doesn't fit into?

If God's word is true, then we would expect the things we can observe and measure regarding the past would confirm God's truth.

Hammering a square block into a round hole anyone?

Only if you try to claim that evolution is an acceptable explanation of human origins.

 

[vipertaja]

Micaiah, I'll try to answer this all in short.

By leaders having lust for power I mean a leader in general, because a leader
is a leader because he wants to be. You don't end up leading in politics
unintentionally and certainly not unwillingly. I also define politics as having a
necessary evil...IE manipulation and sometimes outright lie. Leaders desire
power and power corrupts.

The reason I think money in ID/creationist research is wasted is because
theism and science so far have not fit together. Technically they don't
have to refute each other though, since they play in different fields entirely.
You know this. God is untouchable with science, so why try to prod him
with it? Science does not deny god...it simply doesn't handle god issues.
Because it cannot.

Science seeks to prove things in the only way things can be proven, that's
why it's not theistic, because theism cannot be proven correct. That is all.
Evolution has so far not been refuted in science and ID/creation has so far
not come up with anything scientific to contribute. If you prefer not to give
children the option to be "forcefed" science in science class then
homeschool them or put them in a christian school that teaches things of
your liking. Not hard is it? It would also keep them away from being eaten
by us cannibalistic atheists.

As for political arenas...separation of church and state. Or would you like
for instance to live in an islamic state, to use an overly stereotypical
example? As I mentioned any strong ideology tends to lead to a police state.
Even militant atheism such as in soviet times. Current US politics is
however not militant atheism, though it is slowly leaning towards a christian
theocracy as I understand it.

 

[vipertaja]

In turn how is the "holy quest to teach everyone what you believe" through
political means of pushing something into science class that doesn't belong
there not "forcefeeding"? You already have religious classes for that until you
manage to actually contribute on the scientific level of things.

Note...even if you could hypothetically prove evolution wrong you still would
have to prove creationism for it to be vaild. It's after all not a binary option
deal.