Why the desire to sin?

juvenissun

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Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place?

Ken

Very simple, God wants to have those 10%. They know how to fight sin.
 
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Ken-1122

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Very simple, God wants to have those 10%. They know how to fight sin.
Why? There won't be any sin in Heaven for them to fight will there? Why not just fix it so that those 10% are born and the other 90% who will eventually be tortured in Hell never even get born or exist?

K
 
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bling

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Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place?

Ken
That is actually a pretty good question.

First off you have to realize: Sin is not the problem.

All mature adults sin.

Unforgiven sin is a real problem.

Sin has purpose in the helping of willing individuals in the fulfillment of their earthly objective.


The story (whither true or not) about Adam and Eve provides tons of information including the fact the humans cannot fulfill their earthly objective without first sinning.

Man is created with a much needed survival instinct (this makes him want continue to live and gives value to eternal life). Unfortunately, this instinct also makes us self-aware, self-centered and eventually selfish.

Humans for good reason are sexual beings, but that fosters competition, self-desire, and lust.
 
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seashale76

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Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place?

Ken

God created people to commune with Him. People are not born depraved. God created people with the capacity for free will. Sin is missing the mark- which is living in accordance to God's will. Sin can be voluntary and involuntary, and one can commit sin in knowledge and in ignorance. People were created to commune with God and attain theosis/salvation. In Orthodoxy- we believe that people were not created in this final state of theosis. To go against what they were told by their Creator was a choice they had and did make- the consequence being that death entered the world.

in order for us to participate in the energies of God/attain theosis/salvation- we need Christ (very God of very God- both fully God and fully man). We can know God via the person of Christ. As St. Athanasius said, "God became man so that man may become like God." It is a pious opinion that even had sin not entered the world, we still would have need of Christ.

Why is Christ important? Because the scriptures say this about God:

No one has seen or can see God (John 1:18).
He lives in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
His ways are unsearchable and unfathomable (Job 11:7-8; Romans 11:33-36).

We look at Christ's work on the cross as being an event that is outside of time. Salvation happened in the past. Via the incarnation (specifically the hypostatic union), it became possible for us to attain theosis. To one in the Church (a Christian), we are being saved. If we persevere, we will be saved in the future. This is only possible through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Christ’s suffering death on the cross and resurrection made it possible for us to now have a way through suffering and a way to reconcile ourselves to God (abolishing sin and death) through His human nature. Christ’s ultimate act of suffering love gives us His saving companionship and grace.

Christ went to sheol/hades (sometimes wrongly translated as hell as in the KJV) for three days and preached to those there, raising them from the dead, and reconciling people to God (abolishing sin). Plus, it wasn't too late for Adam and Eve- even then. In the icon of the Resurrection- Christ is depicted trampling the gates of Hades and lifting Adam and Eve from their graves. Christ destroyed death. It is even mentioned in the New Testament how after the Resurrection- many of the righteous dead were resurrected and appeared to many people. Like Adam, we are dead in our sins, but through Christ (the New Adam) we are brought to life (where we were once dead in our sins).

The word hell itself has often been translated in the KJV as meaning hades/sheol and gehenna. However- it isn't accurate.

Sheol = Hades = the grave
Gehenna = The lake of fire
Hades =/= Gehenna

In Deuteronomy 4:24 and in Hebrews 12:29 it says, 'for God is a consuming fire.' Gehenna was a literal place- a valley outside of Jerusalem- that I believe had been known for pagan sacrifices of children via burning. It was a well-known allusion to suffering that everyone would have been familiar with. In the New Testament any mention of experiencing Gehenna is referenced as suffering, unquenchable fire, and destruction. It wasn't speaking of being literally at the place of Gehenna- but more of the state one could find himself/herself in.

So- this is what we speak of when we talk about hell. However- one who finds himself/herself in Gehenna will be experiencing a state of being and not a literal place. In fact, hell and heaven are two different experiences of the same thing- which is being in the presence of God. This is even alluded to in the Old Testament with the three youths in the fiery furnace. They were able to joyfully walk around in the same fire which killed others.

God isn't changing for anyone. We must change for God and it must be our choice to do so. The suffering one experiences is entirely self-inflicted.

This used to be on wikipedia at one time, but I can't seem to find it anymore:
"For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."
 
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1watchman

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Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place?

Ken

Are you a real Christian, Ken, or just a professor of it? The Bible is clear that all mankind fell with the malady of sin (see Gen. 2 & 3). That brought death ---see Rom. 3 and note Rom. 5:12 also. That is why one MUST be "born again" (John 3) to enter Heaven. I would also recommend one meditate on 1 Jn. 5:10-12. Please start reading your Bible --especially the New Testament.

God knew full well that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve, and that man would be deceived and fail to honor God, but man needed to have that liberty to choose God or not (just as today) --for God does not need more Angels, or robots either. He wants faithful children. Look up always friend!
 
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Ken-1122

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That is actually a pretty good question.

First off you have to realize: Sin is not the problem.

All mature adults sin.

Unforgiven sin is a real problem.

Sin has purpose in the helping of willing individuals in the fulfillment of their earthly objective.


The story (whither true or not) about Adam and Eve provides tons of information including the fact the humans cannot fulfill their earthly objective without first sinning.
Why would God give us an earthly objective that requires sin? Then requires us to ask for forgiveness for what he requires us to do? Why wouldn't he give us an earthly objective that doesn't require us to do wrong?

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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God created people to commune with Him. People are not born depraved. God created people with the capacity for free will. Sin is missing the mark- which is living in accordance to God's will. Sin can be voluntary and involuntary, and one can commit sin in knowledge and in ignorance.
So why didn't God just create us without the desire to sin?

Ken
 
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Ken-1122

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Are you a real Christian, Ken, or just a professor of it?
According to my understanding, real Christians aren’t supposed to start threads here; just respond to them.
God knew full well that Satan would tempt Adam and Eve, and that man would be deceived and fail to honor God,
So why did God allow Satan to deceive his children?
but man needed to have that liberty to choose God or not
Man could still choose or not choose God without Satan being an option; why did he allow Satan in the picture

Ken
 
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ViaCrucis

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Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place?

Ken

That's an interesting figure. Exactly how did you arrive at it?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ken-1122

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That's an interesting figure. Exactly how did you arrive at it?

-CryptoLutheran
The 90% figure? I just picked a number to represent the "wide path that leads to destruction" mentioned in Matthew. From what I hear, 90% is actually a conservetive number; most christians I think will agree that more than 90% won't make it.

Ken
 
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ViaCrucis

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The 90% figure? I just picked a number to represent the "wide path that leads to destruction" mentioned in Matthew. From what I hear, 90% is actually a conservetive number; most christians I think will agree that more than 90% won't make it.

Ken

Most Christians? Do you have some statistics on that one?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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drich0150

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Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place?

Ken
Sin repersents choice. For in order for their to be true choice one must have an option. There is God's expressed will, then there is everything else (sin.) So one can choose to be in God's expressed will, or one can choose to be in his own will.

Why? So we may choose where it is our hearts truly wish to spend eternity.
 
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ebia

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Ken-1122 said:
Why did God create mankind with the desire to sin? If God knew through omniscience, making man the way he did would eventually result in over 90% of his beloved creation sent to the tourtures of Hell, why did he create us this way in the first place? Ken
A bit difficult to answer when one doesn't agree with the premise.
 
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Ken-1122

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Most Christians? Do you have some statistics on that one?

-CryptoLutheran
No statistics; just the idea I get from most of the Christians I talk to. I get the impression that you, and most of the christians you talk to would have a much smaller number; is that correct?

Ken
 
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ebia

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Ken-1122 said:
No statistics; just the idea I get from most of the Christians I talk to. I get the impression that you, and most of the christians you talk to would have a much smaller number; is that correct? Ken
[0,1)
 
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Ken-1122

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Sin repersents choice. For in order for their to be true choice one must have an option. There is God's expressed will, then there is everything else (sin.) So one can choose to be in God's expressed will, or one can choose to be in his own will.

Why? So we may choose where it is our hearts truly wish to spend eternity.
Can't one have true choice within God's expressed will? I mean some choices are neither right nor are they wrong; but they are still a choice! Wouldn't you agree?

K
 
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