Why the Constant Attack?

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jimmyjimmy

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Dispensationalists like myself see your views as error. But we do not constantly invade CV and PP webs with attacks. And we most certainly do not make the kind of false accusations that BABerean2 is constantly posting. I have repeatedly shown him the undeniable proof that these accusations are false, and he continues to post them.

It sounds like you gripe is with one person, so your OP is a little misleading. Why not ask him not to post here or report him if he is indeed flaming? You are choosing a broad solution to a very narrow problem, it seems.
 
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Biblewriter

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It sounds like you gripe is with one person, so your OP is a little misleading. Why not ask him not to post here or report him if he is indeed flaming? You are choosing a broad solution to a very narrow problem, it seems.
Actually, although he is the main offender, there are a number of others that do the same things. Although most of them do not do it as flagrantly as his willful falsehood.

I call it willful falsehood, because, even though he is accurately quoting what others have said, he has personally seen, and repeatedly seen, many proofs that what they said was not true.
 
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Danoh

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All that in an attempt to hold up the strawman that is the misinterpretation of Romans 11:26's "And so..." though it is clear as day both from what has gone before it, to what follows it, that what the Apostle Paul is asserting is based on much more than one sampling from Jeremiah and Isaiah.

I have to believe such believe they are right. And that that they believe others are the ones not only wrong, but up to no good.

But that in their obvious incompetence at their chosen "mission" to save the Dispensationalist from Dispensationalism, they only end up looking like they themselves are knowingly up to no good.

People that oblivious to that are perhaps simply no longer reachable through reason.

Not if all they ever end up capable of is projecting the resulting paranoia of their error onto any attempt at reason with them.

All that as a result of two words Greeked and one additional passage read into it, despite the overwhelming witness to the contrary of Leviticus; Deuteronomy; Isaiah; Jeremiah; Ezekiel; and so on, as to what exactly the Apostle Paul is actually asserting there, in Romans 11:26.

Their kind are all over the net with their "mission."

Who is it again that is relying on "manmade doctrine"?

Not them, of course. Two Greeked words, and one passage read into being their proof positive.
 
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BABerean2

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It sounds like you gripe is with one person, so your OP is a little misleading. Why not ask him not to post here or report him if he is indeed flaming? You are choosing a broad solution to a very narrow problem, it seems.

At one time I was a deacon in a conservative Bible church. My wife and I loved the people and still do. As a matter of fact, we will be attending a community-based Bible Study that meets in our homes tonight. It includes some of those same people.

When I could not get my Bible to match up with what we were being taught in Sunday School, I decided to find out who first taught the doctrine. What I discovered shocked me and I had to wonder why our pastors were not telling those sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby brought this doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.

Since that time I produced the YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" which reveals the history of this modern doctrine. One of my sources is Dr. Charles Ryrie, who was a promoter of the doctrine.

Some people are not happy that the history of the doctrine has now become available to the general public and they are kicking and screaming in an effort to get this exposure stopped.

I have posted the history of the doctrine and the scriptures that show the Two Peoples of God doctrine does not match up to the New Testament. The most serious error is the claim that there will be a future time when people will come to salvation outside of the Church.

The personal attacks come from the other side.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

A Baptist speaks on the History of Dispensationalism in America
Ernest Reisinger
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.
 
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Hoghead1

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At one time I was a deacon in a conservative Bible church. My wife and I loved the people and still do. As a matter of fact, we will be attending a community-based Bible Study that meets in our homes tonight. It includes some of those same people.

When I could not get my Bible to match up with what we were being taught in Sunday School, I decided to find out who first taught the doctrine. What I discovered shocked me and I had to wonder why our pastors were not telling those sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby brought this doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.

Since that time I produced the YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" which reveals the history of this modern doctrine. One of my sources is Dr. Charles Ryrie, who was a promoter of the doctrine.

Some people are not happy that the history of the doctrine has now become available to the general public and they are kicking and screaming in an effort to get this exposure stopped.

I have posted the history of the doctrine and the scriptures that show the Two Peoples of God doctrine does not match up to the New Testament. The most serious error is the claim that there will be a future time when people will come to salvation outside of the Church.

The personal attacks come from the other side.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

A Baptist speaks on the History of Dispensationalism in America
Ernest Reisinger
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.
Good to see you did some real research here. Unfortunately, many here do not appreciate that and unduly attack those of us in the know.
 
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Biblewriter

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At one time I was a deacon in a conservative Bible church. My wife and I loved the people and still do. As a matter of fact, we will be attending a community-based Bible Study that meets in our homes tonight. It includes some of those same people.

When I could not get my Bible to match up with what we were being taught in Sunday School, I decided to find out who first taught the doctrine. What I discovered shocked me and I had to wonder why our pastors were not telling those sitting in the pews that John Nelson Darby brought this doctrine to America, about the time of the Civil War.

Since that time I produced the YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology" which reveals the history of this modern doctrine. One of my sources is Dr. Charles Ryrie, who was a promoter of the doctrine.

Some people are not happy that the history of the doctrine has now become available to the general public and they are kicking and screaming in an effort to get this exposure stopped.

I have posted the history of the doctrine and the scriptures that show the Two Peoples of God doctrine does not match up to the New Testament. The most serious error is the claim that there will be a future time when people will come to salvation outside of the Church.

The personal attacks come from the other side.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

A Baptist speaks on the History of Dispensationalism in America
Ernest Reisinger
http://founders.org/fj09/the-history-of-dispensationalism-in-america/

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

.
Good to see you did some real research here. Unfortunately, many here do not appreciate that and unduly attack those of us in the know.

Yes, he did research. But his research was woefully incomplete. I have done far more complete research, and published the results of this research. And he continues to publish these FALSE ACCUSATIONS, even after having them proved false to his face, again and again. The fact that some leading dispensationalists do not know these accusations are false has zero bearing on the fact.

Dispensationalism simply did not originate with John Nelson Darby. Many of its main concepts were actually taught in the first two centuries of the church. A future restoration of the nation of Israel, both to their ancient homeland and to their God, was very clearly taught in the early 1700s. And the man who taught that stated that others had taught it before himself, although he did not name those others. And a fully developed dispensationalism was taught in the very early 1800s, before Either J. N. Darby or Edward Irving, the man he allegedly got his ideas from, even began to write. Ahd BABerean2 has seen the proof of ALL of this.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes, he did research. But his research was woefully incomplete. I have done far more complete research, and published the results of this research. And he continues to publish these FALSE ACCUSATIONS, even after having them proved false to his face, again and again. The fact that some leading dispensationalists do not know these accusations are false has zero bearing on the fact.

Dispensationalism simply did not originate with John Nelson Darby. Many of its main concepts were actually taught in the first two centuries of the church. A future restoration of the nation of Israel, both to their ancient homeland and to their God, was very clearly taught in the early 1700s. And the man who taught that stated that others had taught it before himself, although he did not name those others. And a fully developed dispensationalism was taught in the very early 1800s, before Either J. N. Darby or Edward Irving, the man he allegedly got his ideas from, even began to write. Ahd BABerean2 has seen the proof of ALL of this.

It should seem strange to all of us that Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie connected modern Dispensational Theology to the Albury Conference, as clearly given in the post found in this thread.

On page 170 of the 2007 edition of his book “Dispensationalism”, Dr. Charles C. Ryrie connects John Nelson Darby to Irving and the Albury Conference.

“It was not until several years after leaving the Church of England that Darby became interested in prophecy. His interest was piqued through conferences at Albury, out of which the Irvingian movement grew.”



Also, Brethren Historian F.R. Coad's 1966 paper fails to mention any of the sources you claim are the true sources of the doctrine.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


We have also seen in the past that author Grant Jeffrey was willing to cut and paste the writings of the Early Church Fathers in order to turn their PostTrib views into his pretrib viewpoint.
He was the original source of the Pseudo-Ephraem claim.


Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf


If you can provide any pre-Darby or Irving source that claims modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, we would all like to see it.

I could also say I am a Dispensationalist, because I believe in two dispensations.
One before the Cross and one after.



And the only person who confirms your claims would be you and you call this proof and heap condemnation on others.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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What you call my "claims" were not merely claims, as you falsely characterize them, but proofs of what I said. They were actual quotations, annotated with dates, and with the sources clearly identified in ways that anyone could easily check them. Thus, whether or not any other person had ever noticed the same historical details is totally meaningless.

But as a side note, what you have published is indeed, at least mostly, nothing but unsubstantiated claims, as opposed to actual annotated quotations that prove what is being demonstrated. And the fact that they are quotations that you have indeed annotated does not change the fact that the statements themselves are, for the most part, unsubstantiated claims.
 
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Danoh

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I've yet to read an anti-dispensationalist who is actually competent at research.

One of the best within Preterism is Preterist scholar, John Noe.

And yet, even he is unable to divorce himself from looking at Dispensationalism outside of his Preterist bias.

The other extreme being a Dispensational writer such as Charles Ryrie - his every utturence from within a Dispensationalism that has also become a system long since set in stone.

Its the curse the scholar ever ends up in, together with their army of book readers - on all sides of the fence.

Where you think you know how to look at a thing objectively but you actually don't.

The answer to perplexity over one teaching or another is not found in running to another teaching. That is what the amateur does.

After a while becoming an expert at being an amateur all the while convinced he has learned how to look at a thing.

Many even have letters after their names.

Very few people it seems, are able to free themselves to where they are able not only to continue to challenge their own view, but in an actually objective manner.

In this, many a would be Bible study "expert" is no better off in his endeavour than the Buddhist in his notion he has a grasp on (no)reality.

Despite the low regard I hold for the anti-dispensationalist in his incompetence, though, I still read and hear out what they present.

In my awareness that even a stopped clock every so often (twice a day, in fact) has something relevant to say.

Its one way of several by which I try to keep myself outside of my own views as I consider those of another.

The mind is capable of this. Children do that all the time. Take on an "as if" other than their own.

Its how their young minds experiment with, and learn from their experiencing of reality, in all its wonderous hues.

Before the reality of "big people" set in stone in their perceptions, swallows their freedom in this into its "one size fits all" matrix....

Its really not that difficult to "put on our thinking caps" still.

To go outside the box and from there look in at a thing; just curious about it.

Only...the anti-dispensationalist makes it difficult for himself...

Because it his learned "nature" to do so.

The product of "read this, repeat after me" it is now his reality. He believes the answer he is in search of is in more of that - is in more "books about."
 
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Biblewriter

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Danoh, that is why it is so important to read (and quote) actual sources, rather than books about sources. It takes more effort to find the actual sources, but it is worth the effort.
 
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BABerean2

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They were actual quotations, annotated with dates, and with the sources clearly identified in ways that anyone could easily check them.

"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."


Tim LaHaye, "Rapture Under Attack", page 197, c 1998, Multnomath Publishers, Inc.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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Again, you are only quoting from books ABOUT the ancient sources, instead of the ancient sources themselves. I have already proved, from actual quotations of the ancient sources, that Tim Lahaye was wrong about this.
 
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BABerean2

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Job8

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"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
That may be debatable, but regardless of whether this is true or not, the New Testament itself is the oldest witness to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Nowhere in Scripture is there any connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture [you can search Revelation chapters 6-18 and you will not find any reference to (a) the Church, (b) churches, and (c) the Resurrection/Rapture].

Indeed in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, Paul was trying to calm down the Christians who had been frightened (by false teachers) into thinking that the Day of the LORD had already come. And Christ already told us in the Olivet Discourse that the Day of the LORD (the Great Tribulation) would come only AFTER the Abomination of Desolation, and that it is a period of time such as has never been, nor ever will be hereafter.
 
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Biblewriter

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Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Jeffrey.pdf

.
And you continue to quote what others have said about what ancient writers said, while never actually going back to the ancient sources yourself.

I have proved. Not alleged, but proved, that Irenaeus not only clearly stated that there would be great tribulation "when the church is suddenly caught up," but that at that point in his narrative, he changed his wording about the people going through these times from "the church" and "we" to "they," "them," and "those." This is proof that your sources are incorrect in claiming that Irenaeus did not teach that the rapture would be before the great tribulation.

And no number of modern writers alleging something else can change this, which has already been conclusively proved.

But regardless of the fact that your allegations are simply not true, they are clearly off the subject of this thread. And attempting to derail a thread is a violation of forum rules. I took your bait in this case, and allowed you to derail the thread. But in the future, if you wish to bring up your allegations again, do so in your own threads. Every time you attempt to derail one of my threads, I intend to simply report you, rather than answer you.
 
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BABerean2

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And you continue to quote what others have said about what ancient writers said, while never actually going back to the ancient sources yourself.

I have proved. Not alleged, but proved, that Irenaeus not only clearly stated that there would be great tribulation "when the church is suddenly caught up," but that at that point in his narrative, he changed his wording about the people going through these times from "the church" and "we" to "they," "them," and "those." This is proof that your sources are incorrect in claiming that Irenaeus did not teach that the rapture would be before the great tribulation.

And no number of modern writers alleging something else can change this, which has already been conclusively proved.

But regardless of the fact that your allegations are simply not true, they are clearly off the subject of this thread. And attempting to derail a thread is a violation of forum rules. I took your bait in this case, and allowed you to derail the thread. But in the future, if you wish to bring up your allegations again, do so in your own threads. Every time you attempt to derail one of my threads, I intend to simply report you, rather than answer you.

Let us examine what you have "proven" within the text of your comments below, from another post. My comments are in Blue, Bold Text, with the exception of the scripture I have added. Your comments are within quotation marks.

"There have been many false claims put forth concerning the origins of dispensationalism and of the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation.
The actual facts are:
1. The central concepts of both of these doctrines can be found in the very oldest of all the surviving Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. (That is, any such comment of a significant length.) This is the last twelve chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," which is thought to have been written between the years 186 and 188 A.D.
Irenaeus used the word dispensation, or its plural form dispensations, well over eighty times. He explicitly named a few of these dispensations, namely “the dispensation of the law,” (book III, chapter XI, section 7, and again in book III, chapter XV, section 3) which he also called “the Levitical Dispensation,” (book IV, Title of chapter XVII.) “the Mosaic dispensation,” (book IV, chapter XXXVI, section 2.) and “the legal dispensation.” (book III, chapter X, section 2 and the title of book V, chapter VIII.) He used this last term a third time, contrasting it with “the new dispensation of liberty” in book III, chapter X, section 4. And he spoke of the present age as “our dispensation” in book IV, chapter XV, section 2. Finally, he referred to “the future dispensation of the human race.” (book III, chapter XXII, section 3.) We should also note that he used the term the “dispensations of God,” eight times. These eight times were in book I, chapter X, section 1, book I, chapter XVI, section 3, book II, chapter XXV, section 3, book III, chapter XI, section 9, book IV, chapter XX, section 10, book IV, chapter XXI, section 3, book IV, chapter XXIII, section 1, and book IV, chapter XXXIII, section 1."

Based on your logic above, any writer who uses the word "dispensation" must be a Dispensationalist.
Therefore, based on the same logic any Bible scholar who uses the word "Satan" would also be a Satanist.
And this person would be a more ardent Satanist, based on the number of times they used the word "Satan".


"This same Irenaeus wrote of the evil of the nations and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)"

I could also agree with the words of Irenaeus above.
When Christ returns at the 7th trumpet for His Church, tremendous tribulation will be poured out on the unbelievers through the wrath of God, when Christ returns in Flaming Fire.


2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Based on your logic, "you have conclusively proved" I must be a promoter of modern Dispensational Theology.

.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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But my question is, why this one-sided attack? Why do these people find it necessary to continually attack Dispensationalism?

Hi BibleWriter, glad to see you are still around. Its been years since I was last here on CF.

Not sure about recent posts, but dispensationalist forums do seem to draw people who want to criticize it.

Years ago I read Gerstner's Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth hoping to get a balanced, critical perspective on dispensationalism. After finishing the book I wondered what on earth he described since it surely wasn't any dispensationalism that I knew.
 
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Biblewriter

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Let us examine what you have "proven" within the text of your comments below, from another post. My comments are in Blue, Bold Text, with the exception of the scripture I have added. Your comments are within quotation marks.

"There have been many false claims put forth concerning the origins of dispensationalism and of the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation.
The actual facts are:
1. The central concepts of both of these doctrines can be found in the very oldest of all the surviving Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. (That is, any such comment of a significant length.) This is the last twelve chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies," which is thought to have been written between the years 186 and 188 A.D.
Irenaeus used the word dispensation, or its plural form dispensations, well over eighty times. He explicitly named a few of these dispensations, namely “the dispensation of the law,” (book III, chapter XI, section 7, and again in book III, chapter XV, section 3) which he also called “the Levitical Dispensation,” (book IV, Title of chapter XVII.) “the Mosaic dispensation,” (book IV, chapter XXXVI, section 2.) and “the legal dispensation.” (book III, chapter X, section 2 and the title of book V, chapter VIII.) He used this last term a third time, contrasting it with “the new dispensation of liberty” in book III, chapter X, section 4. And he spoke of the present age as “our dispensation” in book IV, chapter XV, section 2. Finally, he referred to “the future dispensation of the human race.” (book III, chapter XXII, section 3.) We should also note that he used the term the “dispensations of God,” eight times. These eight times were in book I, chapter X, section 1, book I, chapter XVI, section 3, book II, chapter XXV, section 3, book III, chapter XI, section 9, book IV, chapter XX, section 10, book IV, chapter XXI, section 3, book IV, chapter XXIII, section 1, and book IV, chapter XXXIII, section 1."

Based on your logic above, any writer who uses the word "dispensation" must be a Dispensationalist.
Therefore, based on the same logic any Bible scholar who uses the word "Satan" would also be a Satanist.
And this person would be a more ardent Satanist, based on the number of times they used the word "Satan".


"This same Irenaeus wrote of the evil of the nations and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." (Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)"

I could also agree with the words of Irenaeus above.
When Christ returns at the 7th trumpet for His Church, tremendous tribulation will be poured out on the unbelievers through the wrath of God, when Christ returns in Flaming Fire.


2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Based on your logic, "you have conclusively proved" I must be a promoter of modern Dispensational Theology.

.

You are doing exactly what you accuse others of having done. You have posted part of what I posted in one place, and pretending that that was everything I said about the subject. What you omitted was the place where I posted all the nouns and pronouns Irenaeus used for the people who would be passing through these times. I posted these for all of the entire twelve chapters he devoted to the subject of end time prophecy. And what I proved was that at one point in his narrative he completely dropped the nouns and changed the pronouns. Up to that point he always said things like "the church" or "we." And after that point he always used only the pronouns "they," "them," or "those."

And the point at which he made this change in his nouns and pronouns was the point at which he said the great tribulation would begin. This was after the Antichrist rose to power and before a three and a half year period during which he said the Antichrist would destroy the entire world. And that is when he said the resurrection would occur.

Instead of laboring to quote what people have said, just go and read what Irenaeus wrote on end time prophecy for yourself. This is the last twelve chapters of his famous work titled "Against Heresies." As these twelve chapters are relatively short, that would not take very long. If you can find even one exception to the rule I posted, you will be able to prove me wrong. But I am confident that you will not find even one. So stop this childish arguing and go try to actually prove something.

And do not even bother to argue about whether or not Irenaeus was right. That is not the point of this discussion. It is only what he said. I do not agree with him, but that is entirely beside my point. My only point is that he indeed put the rapture (even though he did not use this word) before the great tribulation, not after it.
 
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Biblewriter

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Hi BibleWriter, glad to see you are still around. Its been years since I was last here on CF.

Not sure about recent posts, but dispensationalist forums do seem to draw people who want to criticize it.

Years ago I read Gerstner's Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth hoping to get a balanced, critical perspective on dispensationalism. After finishing the book I wondered what on earth he described since it surely wasn't any dispensationalism that I knew.

Yes, our attackers are largely attacking doctrines they imagine we teach, rather than doctrines we actually teach. Or more properly, they are attacking what they see as the results of our doctrines, rather than what we actually teach.
 
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