Why the Childfree Are Hostile

[snoochface]

That article doesn't really describe "why child free people are hostile", it just explains why this one, particular guy is hostile towards "breeders" and says nothing of why he doesn't want kids of his own... maybe I'm missing something.

I think, while it is specific to his own views, much of it can be applied to a lot of people who are child free - the derision of the BINGOs in particular. And why he doesn't want kids of his own would have been beside the point anyway.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

I do agree about the life script thing. Its what we are trained with our whole life. We are kids where we play and have (and learn lol). As teens we make more mature decisions. Aas young adults we either go to college or work. After that we are taught its when we marry and have kids. Then eventually we retire and enjoy life. Media doens't help one bit. Life does not have a script, christians especially should realize that. But they often go by the script everyone else does too.

Of course I am somewhat of an exception in terms of kids. I would love a daughter with ym wife. But my situation in life means it is to difficult to have one due to various factors. So naturally I just say I don't want kids because making it sound like a hard choice just gives people more incentive to bash me for not having one. "Just have one, God will provide!". God doesn't say if you have a child He will provide. If I were homeless and decided to have a child would God give me a house, a job, a car...etc? Well sure, I'm not doubting He could. But I know Hes not a genie and He expects us to make smart choices in our lives.

I've see to many think God will provide and they end up so in debt, so frustrated that they divorce or they end up living out of a trailer home with multiple kids. We have free will and a brain for a reason. If I jump off a cliff without a parachute and die then say to God "Why didn't you give me a parachute?", I'm pretty sure he would facepalm. lol

I think the harder part is when others try to convince your spouse having a kid is easy and no work. Or when your spouse sees lots of friends having kids and feels the need to. Even if they know full well you can't support one. I don't blame the spouse of course. I blame the people that push their views on the spouse.

 

[Inkachu]

I never felt the least bit of pressure to have kids. I knew what I wanted to be and do from the time I was very young, and none of it involved kids. Maybe other people generally just "go with the script", but I never have.

 

[Audiomechanic]

I never felt the least bit of pressure to have kids. I knew what I wanted to be and do from the time I was very young, and none of it involved kids. Maybe other people generally just "go with the script", but I never have.

And that is a very good thing. You knew what you wanted and then did that.

That is exactly what I wish more life-scripters would do. Whether someone has kids or not, they should think long and hard about it and the decision should be what THEY truly want, not what society or anything else says.

Unfortunately, this is many many times not the case.

 

[Inkachu]

I suppose you're right. My son (granted, he's only 13) contends that he doesn't want to even get married. I don't tell him he's wrong or mistaken or that he'll change his mind someday. If he's going to change his mind, he'll figure that out on his own I do wish more parents would encourage their kids to find their own paths and not follow the crowd, even if it means living an unconventional life. I planned to be single, move around a lot, never settle down, and write novels; never have kids, maybe get married, maybe not. Obviously, life threw a bunch of curveballs at me lol. But I didn't do many things simply because they were expected. Pffft. I laugh at expectations.

 

[Audiomechanic]

I suppose you're right. My son (granted, he's only 13) contends that he doesn't want to even get married. I don't tell him he's wrong or mistaken or that he'll change his mind someday. If he's going to change his mind, he'll figure that out on his own I do wish more parents would encourage their kids to find their own paths and not follow the crowd, even if it means living an unconventional life. I planned to be single, move around a lot, never settle down, and write novels; never have kids, maybe get married, maybe not. Obviously, life threw a bunch of curveballs at me lol. But I didn't do many things simply because they were expected. Pffft. I laugh at expectations.

You know, you post reminded me of the most offensive BINGO I've ever received. You didn't make this BINGO, Inkachu, and thus the following rant isn't directed at you, or really anyone in particular. I know most other CFBC individuals and couples have received it too. But of all the BINGOs out there, this one blows my mind the most:

"You should just try and have kids!" (I've also had it worded as "You gotta try at least ONE kid!")

Um....excuse me? I should try having a kid anyway, after I explained to you that I don't want them? I should try anyway?

I know, I know, what these people are saying is, "You should try having one, because, even though I don't know you, where you came from or know what your goals in life are, I know you better than you know yourself. And what I know about you is once you see that little BAAAAY-BEEEEEE bundle of joy, your heart will melt and like a butterfly bursting forth from a cocoon, your inner parent will burst forth and you will join the rest of us as kid-loving parents and you will realize your life's purpose all along: to raise kids. Then you will have 6 more and live happily ever after!!! "

Let's break this BINGO down, shall we?

First, the word "try" implies I can quit if it doesn't work out. Last I checked, there's no return policy for children (excluding the fire station policy many states have). I can't "stuff it back in." I can't just hand it off to some passer by if I decide poopy diapers and sleepless nights aren't for me. There are many examples in the news of "parents" who tried to have a kid, and then threw it away in a dumpster somewhere. The law tends to frown upon that. So realistically, they're not really saying "try," they're saying "have one....You should just have one."

Next, let's look at the forced implications here. What they're hope is, is that I'll have a kid, and my inner butterfly will burst from it's cocoon, and I'll realize what was my purpose on this planet all along and then put forth 100% of myself into raising this kid. Sometimes, I'm sure, this happens. But many many times, it does not. At best, what a kid of a parent who didn't want it (or would have chosen not to have kids) end up with is a mediocre parent. A parent who doesn't put all of themselves into child-reering because they're coming to grips with the fact that, at least for the next 18 years, a large part of themselves has died. Everything they wanted in life is now 2nd to this gooy screaming mass that just came out of them, or their spouse. At worst, the parent is a horrible abusive one, or just abandons the kid all together like my father did. My mom got pregnant, didn't have an abortion, had me, and when my father saw me, he said, "NOPE" and left us both. Why try and convince someone to take that risk? What sense does that make?

Finally, the word "should" implies: do this. Not think about it, ponder it, talk about it with your spouse, but just go do it. "Oh, ok lady, yeah...um....I've known you for all of 5 minutes, but I'll make a permanent life changing decision because you said so." See, as a CFBC, I can always change my mind in one way or another. But a parent cannot go back on their choice (not without severe consequences anyway). I can choose to have kids, I can adopt, I can become a foster home, I can become a mentor, teacher, etc etc etc. I can always change my mind. But it's more than changing my mind. These BINGOers don't realize or don't want to realize that having kids is not the right thing for everyone and there are many people who should not have kids! Because they suck at parenting (like my wife's abusive parents).

Anyway, that's a long diatribe, but I felt an early morning rant coming on.

 

[Inkachu]

What I find sad is that so many CFBC people seem to have this really caustic, snarky attitude towards babies, children, or parenting. It's not like "I think children are wonderful and parenting is a blessed and miraculous endeavor. I simply don't believe it's what God has called me to do." Instead you hear things like "OH right, I really want this screaming little brat keeping me up all night? NOT! I have a LIFE! Not ALL of us want to wind up with stretch marks and empty bank accounts, spending our lives wiping snotty noses!" There really seems to be this disconnect between them and children in general. I know, I know, a lot of you will say "Actually, I LIKE kids. I just don't want any of my own." But is that the vibe you give off when you talk about children and babies? Or do you descend into sarcasm and bitterness? I've seen some people say in one breath "No, I really like kids, I just don't want any" and in the next "Ohhhh, sure, just put a smelly, screaming little 'bundle of joy' in my arms, NO thanks!"

We need to realize that other peoples' comments are often (not always) meant with kindness and are harmless. Even if they don't rub you quite the right way. If someone is trying to extol the joys of parenting to you, they aren't trying to be mean and heartless, they're just sharing their opinions. Take them for what they are and not what they aren't. And one thing they aren't, is a reason to get all bent out of shape and go write a ticked off blog post. If you're really secure and confident in your lifestyle, then you aren't going to be quickly or easily offended by someone who thinks or believes or lives differently than you do. I mean, I'm not going to have anymore kids, and I've had lots of people tell me I should, or ask me why I don't want more. I don't get upset. I don't feel offended. I don't blog about it. I know who I am and what I'm going to do, and I have no problem with someone else thinking their own thoughts about my situation.

*confused*

 

[Audiomechanic]

What I find sad is that so many CFBC people seem to have this really caustic, snarky attitude towards babies, children, or parenting. It's not like "I think children are wonderful and parenting is a blessed and miraculous endeavor. I simply don't believe it's what God has called me to do." Instead you hear things like "OH right, I really want this screaming little brat keeping me up all night? NOT! I have a LIFE! Not ALL of us want to wind up with stretch marks and empty bank accounts, spending our lives wiping snotty noses!" There really seems to be this disconnect between them and children in general. I know, I know, a lot of you will say "Actually, I LIKE kids. I just don't want any of my own." But is that the vibe you give off when you talk about children and babies? Or do you descend into sarcasm and bitterness? I've seen some people say in one breath "No, I really like kids, I just don't want any" and in the next "Ohhhh, sure, just put a smelly, screaming little 'bundle of joy' in my arms, NO thanks!"

You make good points here and I can definitely see how you would arrive at this view point. Some CFBC will make comments that they like kids, but then describe them like I did. I do know that happens. I can only speak for me here and do not speak for other CFBC, but the way I describe babies is largely how I see them. That probably makes me a horrible person in many people's eyes, but it is what it is. I'm actually much less calloused now towards babies than I used to be. For me, there is a disconnected between me a babies/young children. I do not and really never have found them cute, cuddly, adorable, precious or "bundles of joy." In fact, there's only one baby in my life that I'm actually OK with, and that baby belongs to my brother and sister-in-law. And even there, I like her largely because I like her parents and she's not a terrible fussy child (she's pretty mellow). I don't relate to babies and find them to be strange large headed squirming things that demand stuff all the time. I really don't start relating/liking a child until he/she is around 8 years old. I know a couple of 8 year old's, and they're pretty cool.

All of that being said, I do not wish harm on any baby/child. Just because I don't want to be around them, and think of them as would-be burdens (to me) doesn't mean I want them to be hurt or worse. I realize they are future adults. In fact, part of my rant above makes the point that many people who don't want kids should not have them because it does the child a disservice. The kid doesn't pick who his/her parents are, so, in my mind, the parents should really really want the kid before having it.

We need to realize that other peoples' comments are often (not always) meant with kindness and are harmless. Even if they don't rub you quite the right way. If someone is trying to extol the joys of parenting to you, they aren't trying to be mean and heartless, they're just sharing their opinions. Take them for what they are and not what they aren't. And one thing they aren't, is a reason to get all bent out of shape and go write a ticked off blog post. If you're really secure and confident in your lifestyle, then you aren't going to be quickly or easily offended by someone who thinks or believes or lives differently than you do. I mean, I'm not going to have anymore kids, and I've had lots of people tell me I should, or ask me why I don't want more. I don't get upset. I don't feel offended. I don't blog about it. I know who I am and what I'm going to do, and I have no problem with someone else thinking their own thoughts about my situation.

*confused*

More good points here, but many of the parent's (or would-be parent's) comments and BINGOs are not kind in nature, they are judgmental and hurtful. Many of the parents who have BINGO'd me (and especially my wife because she is a woman and is therefore a walking uterus in many eyes) actually hold the viewpoint that we are less than human. The questions, many times are loaded questions. Asked not because they are curious, but because they are judgemental. I actually understand how gay people felt/feel because of it.

Now, all of that being said, I know that not every BINGO is judgmental and I tend to treat each BINGO independently. I have actually had some good conversations with parents about being CFBC that started as a BINGO, and ended with smiles and laughs. Now, per my rant above, I have NEVER had that particular BINGO turn into anything other than judgement.

Your point about taking the comments in stride is a good one as well. I usually don't write long diatribes about BINGOs. I usually don't write much of anything about being CFBC (except here in this forum occasionally). I have seen some rants from CFBC individuals that were very harsh, and I largely disagreed with them being that harsh. Others, I thought, were justifiable. Most of the rants I've seen stem from a frustration that, as a society in general, the CFBC decision is not an accepted one. I'd bet that most of those rants you see on blogs would disappear if it were more accepted (not all of them though, just like there are hateful things written/spoken from the gay community as well. Some people just write hateful things.). I would even argue that, from my perspective, the CFBC are a more persecuted bunch nowadays in daily conversation than even gays, even though we outnumber them at least 2-1. Maybe that's because we don't have activist groups and political correctness backing us. I don't know.

Here's a link to my post earlier in the thread where I describe that many BINGOs from parents actually come from a good place: http://www.christianforums.com/t7813717/#post65313699

Anyway, off my soap box.

 

[Inkachu]

I think it's a bit ridiculous to demean people who have different beliefs with terms like "BINGO". They're human beings, just as deserving of respect and decency as you or I. I feel like that's a cheap way to dehumanize them and make it easier to be cruel and nasty.

You seem to focus a lot on the people that aren't nice. Why is that? Are the majority of people with children (or otherwise "pro kids") a bunch of nasty monsters? Why do I see so much focus on this "us vs. them" mentality? Are we in a war? Do child-free people just enjoy arguments and strife? I would guess that the majority of people aren't like that, so I'm confused as to why there's so much focus on the ones that get under your skin, instead of just dismissing them as a rude, ignorant minority and then getting on with life?

I dunno, I probably shouldn't have come into this thread to begin with lol.

 

[snoochface]

BINGO is not a disparaging or demeaning term. It refers to a bingo game card that floats around the internet in many different versions. The squares on the card contain phrases that the child free frequently hear from people who think we should have children.

What if your parents didn't have kids?
It's different when it's your own.
Don't you think that's selfish?
Who will carry on your family name?
Who will take care of you when you're older?

Etc.

Those are BINGOs. That's all it means. There's nothing demeaning about it.

 

[Inkachu]

It sure doesn't sound like a compliment, but OK.

 

[snoochface]

It sure doesn't sound like a compliment, but OK.

It's not a compliment. It's not an insult either. I have brown hair. That's truth, not complimentary or insulting. It's just what those phrases are called - someone BINGOed me, what you said is a BINGO, I got three BINGOs this week. That's all.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

(hugs this topic)
I love it so much! I wonder how many of the people that have children are reading this biting their tongues.

"You should just try and have kids!" (I've also had it worded as "You gotta try at least ONE kid!")

lol. I love that line. Its like "If I don't like it I can't exactly return it!". And if you have one and tell them you regret it, then they just pound you with lines like "Well I didn't force you to have one!" or "Children are a blessing, how can you say that about Gods gift?". I find those people are the same ones that can't take criticism themselves. Like if you tell them they act like a friend more then a parent to their child, they make excuses.

 

[Inkachu]

Now see, I'm not sitting here biting my tongue, CFC! Stop villifying us lol. I'm just trying to understand the... I dunno... the bad attitude, I guess. I'm a pretty big believer that, in order to be offended, you have to allow yourself to be offended. Why in the world would you allow something like this to upset you so much? Brush it off, go on with your business, let those people go on with theirs. Just because I'm 30 something and have big, juicy, fertile eggs doesn't mean I feel the least bit of pressure to get pregnant lol. I don't! I'm totally confident in my choice. And if someone says "Ohhhh, it's not too late for you! When are you going to have another one? You're not done yet, are you? Noooo, you should have another!" I just smile and laugh and say "Nope, no thanks! All done here!" I don't get all ticked off and bent out of shape.

I dunno, I'm just a "pick your battles" type, I guess. I feel like we live in a culture where it's chic to be pi**ed off all the time or something. Like, if you're not blogging angrily about something every day, you're just not cool. Well, pffft to that lol.

 

[Audiomechanic]

BINGO is not a disparaging or demeaning term. It refers to a bingo game card that floats around the internet in many different versions. The squares on the card contain phrases that the child free frequently hear from people who think we should have children.

What if your parents didn't have kids?
It's different when it's your own.
Don't you think that's selfish?
Who will carry on your family name?
Who will take care of you when you're older?

Etc.

Those are BINGOs. That's all it means. There's nothing demeaning about it.

Bingo.

Snooch hit it. It's origin is this: CFBC get get asked and told the same things from people over and over and over. So frequently that one could take all of the phrases and questions and put them on a bingo game card. Then someone did. Then a few more of the cards popped up. Like this one:

Hence the term "bingo" to refer to those phrases and questions was born. It's a lot easier to refer to those phrases and questions as "bingo's" rather than "those phrases and questions parents always ask the CFBC." That's a bit wordy.

You seem to focus a lot on the people that aren't nice. Why is that?

I can only speak for me. And that's because it can be bothersome. Some of it is venting. The vast majority of the time, I do let it go. I may talk about it with my wife, but it otherwise doesn't go further than that.

Are the majority of people with children (or otherwise "pro kids") a bunch of nasty monsters?

No, of course not. But just like someone isn't going to discuss all of the good drivers they encountered on the road on the way to work with their coworkers (but will definitely bring up the ***hole that cut them off), a CFBC isn't likely to discuss the polite people they encounter. It's not really conversation worthy.

Why do I see so much focus on this "us vs. them" mentality? Are we in a war? Do child-free people just enjoy arguments and strife?

Because, many times, with the nastier more judgemental BINGOs, it IS us vs them, but also like on the playground, "They started it!"

No, we're not in a war. Some CFBC enjoy arguments and strife. Some parents do too. Some people just enjoy the conflict. I sometimes enjoy encountering the nastier people who BINGO.

I would guess that the majority of people aren't like that, so I'm confused as to why there's so much focus on the ones that get under your skin, instead of just dismissing them as a rude, ignorant minority and then getting on with life?

I do dismiss most of them as rude and ignorant and get on with life. Sometimes it's good to vent.

Here's some food for thought for you: if it sucks to be CFBC getting BINGO'd all the time, imagine how much it sucks for the couple/woman who is childLESS. Meaning she CAN'T have children but desperately wants them. They get the same BINGOs that CFBC do. Imagine how much it hurts one of those women to be told she's less than a woman. Or to be judged by her lack of baby stroller. Or to be told that it's God's will and she just needs to pray harder. Every time one of those people get BINGO'd, a scab is ripped off a very very deep and painful wound.

Part of the reason the CFBC rant about BINGOs is to spread awareness. Many don't do it in the most educational way, but being judged for the amount of offspring one has needs to stop. Here's great example from another thread in the Married's forum:

You guys are married. When God made man and woman, he told them to be fruitful and multiply.

I dunno, I probably shouldn't have come into this thread to begin with lol.

I've actually enjoyed this conversation with you, Inka. Your questions are fair ones. I hope I've answered them with clarity.

 

[snoochface]

Now see, I'm not sitting here biting my tongue, CFC! Stop villifying us lol. I'm just trying to understand the... I dunno... the bad attitude, I guess. I'm a pretty big believer that, in order to be offended, you have to allow yourself to be offended. Why in the world would you allow something like this to upset you so much? Brush it off, go on with your business, let those people go on with theirs. Just because I'm 30 something and have big, juicy, fertile eggs doesn't mean I feel the least bit of pressure to get pregnant lol. I don't! I'm totally confident in my choice. And if someone says "Ohhhh, it's not too late for you! When are you going to have another one? You're not done yet, are you? Noooo, you should have another!" I just smile and laugh and say "Nope, no thanks! All done here!" I don't get all ticked off and bent out of shape.

I dunno, I'm just a "pick your battles" type, I guess. I feel like we live in a culture where it's chic to be pi**ed off all the time or something. Like, if you're not blogging angrily about something every day, you're just not cool. Well, pffft to that lol.

How is this any different than anything else that bothers people? I mean, if someone posts a thread about how much it bothers them when other mothers condemn them for not vaccinating their kids - you could have that attitude you're talking about, and that's great, but sometimes people do get bothered by things, and sometimes they want to vent/rant about those things to other people who get how they feel. That's human nature. It's the internet. It's community.

It doesn't mean we walk around with big scowls on our faces, in a permanent state of grump, brick on shoulders, looking for a fight, watching out for every opportunity to feel offended by stray glances and innocuous comments.

Things like this do bother us sometimes. It's not usually just a difference of opinion like you're describing. It's usually full of judgment and condemnation, often by other Christians, and full of negative connotations. I don't care how great an attitude you have, when you get stuff like that often enough, you're going to want to preach about it a little, and rant to people who are like-minded.

That's one of many reasons that this forum exists.

 

[Audiomechanic]

How is this any different than anything else that bothers people? I mean, if someone posts a thread about how much it bothers them when other mothers condemn them for not vaccinating their kids - you could have that attitude you're talking about, and that's great, but sometimes people do get bothered by things, and sometimes they want to vent/rant about those things to other people who get how they feel. That's human nature. It's the internet. It's community.

It doesn't mean we walk around with big scowls on our faces, in a permanent state of grump, brick on shoulders, looking for a fight, watching out for every opportunity to feel offended by stray glances and innocuous comments.

Things like this do bother us sometimes. It's not usually just a difference of opinion like you're describing. It's usually full of judgment and condemnation, often by other Christians, and full of negative connotations. I don't care how great an attitude you have, when you get stuff like that often enough, you're going to want to preach about it a little, and rant to people who are like-minded.

That's one of many reasons that this forum exists.

Very very well said, Snooch.

 

[akmom]

I totally understand how it could get annoying to be interrogated about a decision you made. Especially if it's the same questions all the time, and they're less than compelling.

But I'm kind of with Inkachu on the "attitude" of many child-free people. I feel like there's a lot of assumptions that aren't true, as well as expectations that aren't realistic, and they are expressed in the tone of criticizing parents. For example, the author above who doesn't understand the popular desire for children, and makes the assumption that parents are, therefore, just following a script. To me, that just sounds ridiculous. Where are all the college graduates, then? That's as much of a script as parenthood (if not more). Maybe, just maybe, having kids is popular because it really is common to want them. I've always wanted them. I actually put off having kids in order to follow the "life script" of getting a degree and getting married, but no one ever criticizes people for that type of lifescripting. (And by the way, I'm glad I did get a degree, but honestly it wasn't a lifelong dream for me at the time. It was just a generic expectation that I followed.)

I also don't believe in the author's accusation of baby obsession. Babies are the least enjoyable part of parenting, though you don't actually know that until you have a two-year-old. People aren't obsessed with babies, but rather forced into extreme dedication to them because of their needs. They don't "lose interest" in kids at the age of five (when they really start becoming interesting), but they might give them less attention, because they can (and should). These are, in my opinion, the ignorant assumptions of a child-free person who doesn't like what they observe in some parents.

And honestly, I doubt there's much distinction between the "parents" and "breeders" he observes. It's much more likely the time of day that determined his opinion. A cranky child who missed their naptime might result in a parent-child dynamic that resembles a "breeder/lifescripter," whereas that same family could appear loving and well-adjusted the next day. But of course, if you've never spent 24 hours with kids for years on end, you probably wouldn't know this. And you might just invent a categorization for parents that doesn't even really exist.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Now see, I'm not sitting here biting my tongue, CFC

Yes you are, I'm watching you from the window! CReepy huh? LOL

I dunno, I'm just a "pick your battles" type, I guess.

True, its how I am. ESpecially on this forum overall. I used to get annoyed easily but now I ignore people. And that includes offline too... well unless they attack my wife. I do like to give advice though if I feel someone is giving advice thats maybe not correct. BUt if people want to start a debate over it I ignore them.

About the only time I do get flustered is when someone puts someone at a lower level for have a different view. Such as one person months ago told someone in the off topic section who didn't want kids to go stay in this section. Its definitely not a christian thing to do to someone. Although I have found the report button to be my best friend now. That and the ignore button. But I don't use it if I don't have too.

I feel like we live in a culture where it's chic to be pi**ed off all the time or something. Like, if you're not blogging angrily about something every day, you're just not cool. Well, pffft to that lol.

My wife said to me recently after watching a few people bicker on FB "Americans so quick to speak mind and hurt others! We are not like that." Its true I told her. America may have lots of freedoms, but it comes with the price of people often are willing to speak their mind often even if mean about it. At the same time though I did tell her the two choices are to become like them which solves nothing or to grow a thick skin and ignore those people.

I've actually enjoyed this conversation with you, Inka. Your questions are fair ones. I hope I've answered them with clarity.

Shes pretty cool. *high five* Hmm, are high fives considered old fashioned now? I feel old. lol. Well ok lots of people in this forum are.

 

[Audiomechanic]

I totally understand how it could get annoying to be interrogated about a decision you made. Especially if it's the same questions all the time, and they're less than compelling.

But I'm kind of with Inkachu on the "attitude" of many child-free people. I feel like there's a lot of assumptions that aren't true, as well as expectations that aren't realistic, and they are expressed in the tone of criticizing parents. For example, the author above who doesn't understand the popular desire for children, and makes the assumption that parents are, therefore, just following a script. To me, that just sounds ridiculous. Where are all the college graduates, then? That's as much of a script as parenthood (if not more). Maybe, just maybe, having kids is popular because it really is common to want them. I've always wanted them. I actually put off having kids in order to follow the "life script" of getting a degree and getting married, but no one ever criticizes people for that type of lifescripting. (And by the way, I'm glad I did get a degree, but honestly it wasn't a lifelong dream for me at the time. It was just a generic expectation that I followed.)

I also don't believe in the author's accusation of baby obsession. Babies are the least enjoyable part of parenting, though you don't actually know that until you have a two-year-old. People aren't obsessed with babies, but rather forced into extreme dedication to them because of their needs. They don't "lose interest" in kids at the age of five (when they really start becoming interesting), but they might give them less attention, because they can (and should). These are, in my opinion, the ignorant assumptions of a child-free person who doesn't like what they observe in some parents.

And honestly, I doubt there's much distinction between the "parents" and "breeders" he observes. It's much more likely the time of day that determined his opinion. A cranky child who missed their naptime might result in a parent-child dynamic that resembles a "breeder/lifescripter," whereas that same family could appear loving and well-adjusted the next day. But of course, if you've never spent 24 hours with kids for years on end, you probably wouldn't know this. And you might just invent a categorization for parents that doesn't even really exist.

Fair points, Akmom.

I especially like your last point that a CFBC's opinion of a parent vs a breeder may be effected by whether or not the child is fussy or difficult at the moment. IMO, you are correct in this for most situations. I like this argument a lot because it also applies to parent's opinions of the CFBC when they rant or make blog posts. Like Snooch said, most of us are not consistently angry people, walking through life with scowls on our faces. So, at least for me, when I make a post (which is rare), it's because I was particularly bothered by a specific event or specific series of events, rather than an overall hatred of parents. For example, my rant earlier in the thread was sparked by a very specific BINGO that is particularly upsetting and insulting. I did not, however, bash parents as a whole in the rant. I'm betting (though I don't have facts or hard evidence) that many of the CFBC rants people post online are likely sparked by specific events of particular annoyance. Much like getting to work and ranting to co-workers about the terrible driver that cut you off, but then referring to "Houston drivers" as a whole.

So what I see here, is a breakdown of communication in general on both sides.

To your point about the author not understanding the popular desire for children, you're right! He's CFBC! But at the same time, he's referring to the people who go through life on auto-pilot, following a script not written by them. "Grow up > get married > have kids. It's what you do!" He's referring to those people. His wish (and mine as well) is that the people who are on auto-pilot through their lives would turn off the auto-pilot and think for themselves. I personally have spoken to many people who have kids. Some of them (a surprising number of them women) have commented to me, "If I could go back, I wouldn't have had kids. But, it's what you did! You grew up, got married and had kids!"

And to your point about America being baby crazy, I believe the author right. You don't have to look much farther than overhearing conversations between parents and looking at magazine covers to see the baby obsession. Women, from my perspective, are the most baby crazy. Because babies are cute [to them]. They coo and ooo and ah over babies. Once the kid is 4+ years old, their reaction is not one of "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]! WHAT A CUTE BAAAY-BEEE!" but a reaction that is much more meh. Then in the media, it's "What celebrity has a BABY BUMP?!" Once the baby is born and become toddler-age, they move on to the next potential pregnancy to post and articles of. Babies babies babies. Not future adults. Babies. Now, all of this is from my perspective. It is true that I don't spend very much time discussing matters of children with parents. But what I see is a lot of baby-obsession.

Good points, Akmom.