Why the Apocryphal Books Rejected as Scripture.

[Xeno.of.athens]

...

Is this something like Orthodox teaching on divorce & remarriage?

In the Orthodox Church, the topic of **divorce and remarriage** is multifaceted and nuanced.:

1. **Indissolubility of Marriage**:
- **Marriage** in the Orthodox Church is considered a **mystery** or **sacrament** (Ephesians 5:31-32). When sealed through the Church, a healthy Christian marriage is **indissoluble**.
- However, it's essential to recognize that the covenant of marriage, like any other covenant with God, requires the exertion of our **free will**. In other words, marriage remains unbreakable if both spouses actively choose to uphold it.
- Christ's teaching emphasizes this: "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate" (Mark 10:9; Matthew 19:6).

2. **Orthodox Teachings on Divorce**:
- Despite the ideal of indissolubility, the Orthodox Church acknowledges that **sinful behaviour** can taint the completeness of the marriage relationship.
- The offense itself, rather than the divorce, is what breaks the bond. The Church recognizes that sometimes marriages become irreparable.
- Our Lord's words in the Gospel of Matthew allow for an exception: "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).
- Thus, the Orthodox Church can permit **divorce and remarriage** under specific circumstances.

3. **Ecclesiastical Divorce**:
- Once a **civil divorce** is granted, divorced couples may apply for an **ecclesiastical divorce** within the Orthodox Church.
- The parish priest assesses whether remarriage is possible based on pastoral counsel and the couple's situation.
- The process recognizes the complexities of human relationships and seeks to balance the ideal with pastoral care.

4. **Penitential Character of Second or Third Marriages**:
- While the Church stands opposed to divorce, it permits **divorced individuals** to marry a second or even a third time.
- The **Order of the Second or Third Marriage** differs from that of a first marriage and bears a **penitential character**.

Sources:
(1) Remarriage after Divorce - Saint John the Evangelist Orthodox Church. Remarriage after Divorce.
(2) Orthodox Church Divorce and Remarrying. Orthodox Church Divorce and Remarrying - Orthodox Church Quotes.
(3) The Orthodox Church and Divorce - Orthodox Church Quotes. The Orthodox Church and Divorce - Orthodox Church Quotes.
(4) Pastoral Guidelines on Divorce - Saints Peter & Paul Greek Orthodox Church. Pastoral Guidelines on Divorce | Saints Peter & Paul Greek Orthodox Church.
(5) Divorce and Remarriage - Orthodox Church in America. Divorce and Remarriage - Questions & Answers.​

 

[The Liturgist]

There's no statement by the SBC to hate sinners. I imagine their stance regarding homsexuality is the same as their stance regarding fornication and adultery etc.

On this we agree.

 

[The Liturgist]

So your scholars figured this out a thousand years later? They accept the list provided by Saint Athanasius of the New Testament books, even the same order, all approved by the Catholic Church in the later 300s. Did you know Saint Athanasius quoted from the Deuterocanonicals?

According as the wisdom of God testifies beforehand when it says, "The devising of idols was the beginning of fornication." (Wisdom 14:12)
Athanasius Against the Heathen par 9.4

And actually all Christian Bibles in all of Europe consisted of 73 books for that thousand or so years, not 66.

It is not a matter of which scholar is the expert of the day, the Catholic Church took a prayerful approach and decided by the authority Jesus gave to Peter.

Approximately 73. The Greek and Church Slavonic Bibles are slightly different from the Vulgate in terms of what they include and exclude and also in details such as the naming of books.

This is I admit a somewhat pedantic point, since the context of the Orthodox bibles, the Vulgate, and a complete, unredacted copy of the KJV all are basically the same in terms of their contents. However the number 73 strikes me as uncomfortably specific.

By the way do Catholic Bibles usually have Psalm 151 like their Orthodox counterparts?

 

[Valletta]

Approximately 73. The Greek and Church Slavonic Bibles are slightly different from the Vulgate in terms of what they include and exclude and also in details such as the naming of books.

This is I admit a somewhat pedantic point, since the context of the Orthodox bibles, the Vulgate, and a complete, unredacted copy of the KJV all are basically the same in terms of their contents. However the number 73 strikes me as uncomfortably specific.

By the way do Catholic Bibles usually have Psalm 151 like their Orthodox counterparts?

No, Psalm 151 is not in the Catholic Bible.

 

[Ceallaigh]

On this we agree.

My guess is we agree on more things than not.

 

[The Liturgist]

No, Psalm 151 is not in the Catholic Bible.

By which presumably you mean the Roman Rite Catholic Bibles, since I regrettably forgot to specify that, and to my knowledge it is in those used by Eastern Rite Catholics.

It is not used in the Orthodox or Greek Catholic liturgy, however. But many pre-schism saints regarded it as canonical, and a format frequently encountered from the Eastern fathers in the Philokalia is “151 Chapters.” They would write one chapter for each canonical Psalm.

There are four additional Psalms that some Syriac Christians once regarded as canonical, but presently these Psalms (152-155) are not accepted by anyone as canon despite being very beautiful and devoid of anything untoward.

 

[The Liturgist]

My guess is we agree on more things than not.

Probably. And I look forward to getting to know you better, since this thread is our first encounter, and the true joy of ChristianForums is the fellowship. And most people here are open to this, and I am able to get along with most of them. By most, I mean nearly all, aside from some of the atheists who hang out in the politics forums open to non-Christian members.

 

[Valletta]

By which presumably you mean the Roman Rite Catholic Bibles, since I regrettably forgot to specify that, and to my knowledge it is in those used by Eastern Rite Catholics.

I am no expert on Eastern rites, the liturgies are different, the administration of sacraments is different, but I am unaware of any Catholic Bible that contains another Psalm.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Probably. And I look forward to getting to know you better, since this thread is our first encounter, and the true joy of ChristianForums is the fellowship. And most people here are open to this, and I am able to get along with most of them. By most, I mean nearly all, aside from some of the atheists who hang out in the politics forums open to non-Christian members.

Not our first encounter. I just changed my username.

 

[prodromos]

Is this something like Orthodox teaching on divorce & remarriage?

In the Orthodox Church, the topic of **divorce and remarriage** is multifaceted and nuanced.:​

​

1. **Indissolubility of Marriage**:​

- **Marriage** in the Orthodox Church is considered a **mystery** or **sacrament** (Ephesians 5:31-32). When sealed through the Church, a healthy Christian marriage is **indissoluble**.​

- However, it's essential to recognize that the covenant of marriage, like any other covenant with God, requires the exertion of our **free will**. In other words, marriage remains unbreakable if both spouses actively choose to uphold it.​

- Christ's teaching emphasizes this: "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate" (Mark 10:9; Matthew 19:6).​

​

2. **Orthodox Teachings on Divorce**:​

- Despite the ideal of indissolubility, the Orthodox Church acknowledges that **sinful behaviour** can taint the completeness of the marriage relationship.​

- The offense itself, rather than the divorce, is what breaks the bond. The Church recognizes that sometimes marriages become irreparable.​

- Our Lord's words in the Gospel of Matthew allow for an exception: "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery" (Matthew 19:9).​

- Thus, the Orthodox Church can permit **divorce and remarriage** under specific circumstances.​

​

3. **Ecclesiastical Divorce**:​

- Once a **civil divorce** is granted, divorced couples may apply for an **ecclesiastical divorce** within the Orthodox Church.​

- The parish priest assesses whether remarriage is possible based on pastoral counsel and the couple's situation.​

- The process recognizes the complexities of human relationships and seeks to balance the ideal with pastoral care.​

​

4. **Penitential Character of Second or Third Marriages**:​

- While the Church stands opposed to divorce, it permits **divorced individuals** to marry a second or even a third time.​

- The **Order of the Second or Third Marriage** differs from that of a first marriage and bears a **penitential character**.​

​

Sources:​

(1) Remarriage after Divorce - Saint John the Evangelist Orthodox Church. Remarriage after Divorce.​

(2) Orthodox Church Divorce and Remarrying. Orthodox Church Divorce and Remarrying - Orthodox Church Quotes.​

(3) The Orthodox Church and Divorce - Orthodox Church Quotes. The Orthodox Church and Divorce - Orthodox Church Quotes.​

(4) Pastoral Guidelines on Divorce - Saints Peter & Paul Greek Orthodox Church. Pastoral Guidelines on Divorce | Saints Peter & Paul Greek Orthodox Church.​

(5) Divorce and Remarriage - Orthodox Church in America. Divorce and Remarriage - Questions & Answers.​

You didn't answer my questions. Talk about diversion.
Tell me, is there any practical limit to how many annulments a Catholic may have?

 

[The Liturgist]

Not our first encounter. I just changed my username.

Oh, it would help if you could PM me your previous username - I will respect your privacy if you do not wish your identity disclosed.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not our first encounter. I just changed my username.

By the way I love your celtic cross.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

You didn't answer my questions. Talk about diversion.
Tell me, is there any practical limit to how many annulments a Catholic may have?

I do not know, neither did you answer my question about when the Orthodoxies changed their practises surrounding divorce.

 

[The Liturgist]

I do not know, neither did you answer my question about when the Orthodoxies changed their practises surrounding divorce.

The short answer is never.

However, not all jurisdictions adhere to the canons perfectly, but on the whole, the Orthodox practice concerning marriage is the same as that documented in the canons of the Early Church. If you want proof, I would be happy to send you a copy of the Rudder, which is our nomcanon, that is to say, the definitive collection of Eastern Orthodox canons, similar to the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law or the Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Rudder (also known by its Greek title Pedalion) can also be downloaded from scribd.

However, your criticism of us for adhering to the apostolic practice on divorce is a red herring, since our church did not just permit the blessing of homosexual couples, which is a violation of the norms of Christian sexual morality, according to prominent and pious Roman Catholics like Raymond Cardinal Burke, Athanasius Schneider, Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco, Cardinal Sarah, Dr. Peter Kwasniewsky, Fr. Zuhlsdorf, and many, many others, including most of your fellow Catholics on this forum. I don’t understand why you are supporting this act.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The short answer is never.

However, not all jurisdictions adhere to the canons perfectly, but on the whole, the Orthodox practice concerning marriage is the same as that documented in the canons of the Early Church. If you want proof, I would be happy to send you a copy of the Rudder, which is our nomcanon, that is to say, the definitive collection of Eastern Orthodox canons, similar to the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law or the Canon Law for the Eastern Catholic Churches. The Rudder (also known by its Greek title Pedalion) can also be downloaded from scribd.

However, your criticism of us for adhering to the apostolic practice on divorce is a red herring, since our church did not just permit the blessing of homosexual couples, which is a violation of the norms of Christian sexual morality, according to prominent and pious Roman Catholics like Raymond Cardinal Burke, Athanasius Schneider, Archbishop Cordileone of San Francisco, Cardinal Sarah, Dr. Peter Kwasniewsky, Fr. Zuhlsdorf, and many, many others, including most of your fellow Catholics on this forum. I don’t understand why you are supporting this act.

You see it as a red herring, perhaps from your perspective it is. I see the criticisms raised by some of you as red herrings.

 

[The Liturgist]

You see it as a red herring, perhaps from your perspective it is. I see the criticisms raised by some of you as red herrings.

But you haven’t answered my question, which is why you disagree with the traditional Catholics who are opposed to Fiducia Supplicans?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But you haven’t answered my question, which is why you disagree with the traditional Catholics who are opposed to Fiducia Supplicans?

Oh, sorry.
I think they are missing the point; they have inflated the significance of a pastoral non-church activity that has been happening for some time in the USA anyway, and probably elsewhere.

 

[prodromos]

I do not know, neither did you answer my question about when the Orthodoxies changed their practises surrounding divorce.

You didn't ask a question. You simply made a false statement about the Orthodox Church in an unprovoked attack that was completely off topic.

 

[actionsub]

And others look and the Roman Catholic Church and wonder why they capitulated on homosexuality.

Divorce and remarriage in my past is a major reason I'm not a Roman Catholic.

 

[concretecamper]

Divorce and remarriage in my past is a major reason I'm not a Roman Catholic.

Pretty tough to follow Christ, isn't it.