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Why the Apocryphal Books Rejected as Scripture.

Xeno.of.athens

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This furthers œcumenical discussion.
There's something about that statement that does make me want to chuckle.
I grant you points for irony.

I would see this thread as an effort at oecumenism if its title were not exactly worded as "Why the Apocryphal Books Rejected as Scripture."

I think that maybe the idea behind the thread is to have a discussion or a debate - even a verbal fight - about the difference in canon between Protestants and everybody else, all comers welcome, and all comers taken on. But especially to have a debate with Catholics specifically about the Catholic Canon Vs the Protestant rejection of these books of the bible: Wisdom, Ecclesiastes, Baruch, Daniel, Esther, first Maccabees, second Maccabees, Judith, and Tobit, because these are the books contained in the canons of the synods of Hippo and Carthage which were mentioned in the Original Post written by @hislegacy.

The reasons listed for Protestants to reject Wisdom, Ecclesiastes, Baruch, Daniel, Esther, first Maccabees, second Maccabees, Judith, and Tobit, are replied to in several posts by several authors, and not all of the replies came from Catholics, I saw a Lutheran reply, some from Christians from the Orthodoxies, and an Anglican reply. And I think that @hislegacy may be more accommodating than the OP's tone and content suggested. I hope that we need not continue the debate or fight style of responses, maybe we can all try discussion, and perhaps generously admit what is obviously correct about our respective attitudes; we all love the holy scriptures that our Tradition presents as canonical, we all have respect for one another, we all want to be kind to one another even when we differ about what is canonical scripture.

May I put forward this proposition? While we all hold to a specific canon that may differ from the specific canon that a brother or sister holds, we acknowledge one another as Christ's child and Christ's brother for whom the Lord came into the world and bore the shame of the cross and who we, in our heart of hearts, hope to see in the resurrection as one who has been made glorious by union with Jesus Christ. And that being so, we might gain something valuable by examining the ancient sources and later sources and perhaps Jewish sources that our traditions use to choose a canon for scripture.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The other issue with the LXX is that originally the LXX meant only the Greek translation of Torah.
Would you show me the sources for that idea? Are they from ancient times?

By Torah, do you mean the five books of Moses? I have read that in the legend about the origin of the LXX (a story that is a little miraculous sounding) a Pharoah is said to have asked for a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, the response was to have 70 (or 72) great Jewish scholars come to Alexandria in Egypt and have each make a translation. Miraculously, it turned out that each scholar's translation was identical for all of the 70 (or 72) scholars. It's an interesting tradition within Judaism.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Xeno.of.athens

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Here, Wikipedia has a source for the legend of the origin of the LXX, it says:
King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: "Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher". God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did. [Septuagint - Wikipedia]​
 
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Daniel Marsh

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1 Maccabees 9
Good News Translation
The Death of Judas
9 When Demetrius heard that Nicanor and his army had been annihilated, he again sent Bacchides and Alcimus to the land of Judea, this time with the Syrian wing of the army. 2 They moved along Gilgal Road, laid siege to Mesaloth in Arbela, captured it, and killed many people. 3 In the first month of the year 152,[a] they set up camp opposite Jerusalem. 4 From there they marched to Berea with 20,000 infantry and 2,000 cavalry.

5 Judas had camped at Elasa, with 3,000 experienced soldiers. 6 But when they saw the enormous size of the enemy army, they were terrified. So many men deserted that only 800 Jewish soldiers were left. 7 When Judas saw that his army was dwindling away and that the battle was about to begin, he was worried because there was not enough time to bring his army together. 8 He was discouraged, but he said to those who were still with him,

Let's prepare for the attack; maybe we can still defeat them.

9 His men tried to talk him out of it.
We are not strong enough, they said.
Let's retreat now and save our lives. Then we can return with reinforcements and fight the enemy. We don't have enough men now.

10 Judas replied,
Never let it be said that I ran from a battle. If our time has come, let's die bravely for our fellow Jews and not leave any stain on our honor.

11 The Syrian army came out of the camp and took up battle positions against the Jews. The cavalry was divided into two parts. The shock troops were in the front lines, but the archers and those who used slings went ahead of the main formation. 12 Bacchides took his position on the right. The infantry advanced, protected on both sides by the cavalry, and the war trumpets were blown. The soldiers of Judas also sounded their trumpets. 13 The ground shook from the noise when the two armies met, and they fought from morning until evening.

14 When Judas saw that Bacchides and the main force of the Syrian army was on the right, all his bravest men joined him, 15 and they crushed the Syrians' right wing. They pursued them as far as the foothills. 16 But when the Syrians on the left wing saw that their right wing had been crushed, they turned to attack Judas and his men from the rear. 17 The fighting became very fierce, and many on both sides were killed. 18 Finally Judas himself was killed. Then all his men fled. 19 Jonathan and Simon took their brother's body and buried it in the family tomb at Modein, 20 and there at the tomb they wept for him. All Israel mourned for him in great sorrow for many days. They said,

21 It can't be! The mighty hero and savior of Israel has been killed!

22 The other deeds of Judas, his battles, his courageous deeds, and his great accomplishments, were too many to write down.

Jonathan Succeeds Judas
23 After the death of Judas, the lawless traitors began to reappear everywhere in Judea, and all the wicked people returned. 24 Also at that time there was a severe famine, and the whole country went over to the side of the renegades. 25 Bacchides deliberately appointed some renegade Jews as rulers over the country. 26 These men hunted down the friends of Judas and brought them all before Bacchides, and he subjected them to torture and humiliation. 27 It was a time of great trouble for Israel, worse than anything that had happened to them since the time prophets ceased to appear among them.

28 Then all the friends of Judas came together and said to Jonathan,
29 Since your brother Judas died, there has been no one like him to lead us against our enemies, against Bacchides and those of our own nation who oppose us. 30 So today we choose you to succeed him as our ruler and commander to carry on our war.

31 Jonathan accepted the leadership that day and took the place of his brother Judas.

The Campaigns of Jonathan
32 When Bacchides learned of this, he made up his mind to kill Jonathan. 33 But when this news reached Jonathan, he fled, with his brother Simon and their men, to the wilderness of Tekoa and set up camp at the pool of Asphar. ( 34 Bacchides learned about this on the Sabbath and crossed the Jordan with his whole army.[c]) 35 Jonathan sent his brother John, who was responsible for the soldiers' families, to ask the Nabateans, with whom he was on friendly terms, for permission to store with them the large amount of baggage they had. 36 But the Jambrites of Medeba attacked John, took him captive, and carried off all the baggage. 37 Some time later Jonathan and his brother Simon learned that the Jambrites were about to celebrate an important wedding and that there would be a bridal procession from the town of Nadabath. The bride was the daughter of one of the great princes of Canaan. 38 Jonathan and Simon had wanted revenge for the death of their brother John, so they and their men went up on one of the mountains and hid. 39 They kept watch and saw a noisy crowd loaded down with baggage. The bridegroom, his friends, and his relatives were on their way to meet the bride's party. They were heavily armed and were playing musical instruments and drums. 40 The Jews attacked from their ambush and killed many of them; the rest escaped into the mountains, while the Jews carried off all their possessions. 41 So the wedding was turned into a time of mourning and their joyful music into funeral songs. 42 Jonathan and Simon had taken full revenge for the death of their brother, and they returned to the marshes along the Jordan.

43 Bacchides heard about this and arrived on the Sabbath at the banks of the Jordan with a large army. 44 Jonathan said to his men,

Now we must fight for our lives. We are in a worse situation than we have ever been in before. 45 The enemy is in front of us, the river is behind us, and marshes and thickets are on both sides of us; there is no way out. 46 So pray now for the Lord to save us from our enemies.

47 The battle began and Jonathan and his men were just about to kill Bacchides, when he escaped to the rear of the army. 48 So Jonathan and his men jumped into the Jordan and swam to the other side to escape, and the Syrian army did not cross the river to follow them. 49 That day Bacchides lost about 1,000 men.

50 After Bacchides returned to Jerusalem, the Syrians built fortifications with high walls and barred gates for a number of towns in Judea: Emmaus, Beth Horon, Bethel, Timnath, Pirathon, Tephon, and the fortress in Jericho. 51 In all of these he placed troops to harass the Jews. 52 He also strengthened the fortifications of the towns of Bethzur and Gezer and of the fort in Jerusalem. He placed army units in them and stored up supplies there. 53 Then he took the sons of the leading men of the country as hostages and imprisoned them in the fort.

54 In the second month of the year 153,[d] the High Priest Alcimus ordered that the wall of the inner court of the Temple be torn down. This would have destroyed what the prophets had accomplished; but just as the work began, 55 he had a stroke, and work was stopped. Paralyzed and unable to open his mouth, he could not speak or even make a will for his family. 56 He died in great torment. 57 When Bacchides learned that Alcimus was dead, he returned to King Demetrius, and the land of Judea had peace for two years.

58 Then all the renegades got together and said,
Look, Jonathan and his men are living in peace and security. If we bring Bacchides here now, he can capture them all in a single night. 59 They went to discuss the matter with Bacchides, 60 and he set out with a large army. He sent secret letters to all his allies in Judea, asking them to seize Jonathan and his men. But they were not able to do so because the plot was discovered. 61 Jonathan and his men captured 50 of the traitorous leaders who had been involved in the plot and put them to death. 62 Then Jonathan, Simon, and their forces withdrew to Bethbasi in the wilderness. They rebuilt the fallen fortifications and strengthened the town's defenses. 63 When Bacchides learned about all this, he got his whole army together and alerted his supporters in Judea. 64 He attacked Bethbasi from all sides and built siege platforms. After the battle had gone on for a long time, 65 Jonathan slipped out into the country with a small body of men and left his brother Simon in charge of the town. 66 Jonathan defeated Odomera and his people, and then attacked and destroyed the Phasirite camp. Once defeated, they joined Jonathan and advanced with him in his attack against Bacchides. 67 At the same time, Simon and his men rushed from the town and burned the siege platforms. 68 In the battle Bacchides was pressed so hard that all his plans came to nothing, and he was defeated. 69 He was so furious with the traitorous Jews who had urged him to come to Judea that he put many of them to death.

Then Bacchides decided to return to his own country, 70 but when Jonathan learned of this, he sent ambassadors to Bacchides to arrange for peace terms and the return of Jewish prisoners. 71 Bacchides agreed to do as Jonathan asked and gave him his solemn promise that he would let him live in peace the rest of his life. 72 Bacchides handed over the prisoners and returned to his own country. Never again did he come into Jewish territory. 73 War came to an end in Israel. Jonathan settled in Michmash and began to govern the people and to eliminate the renegade Jews from Israel.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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That is quite a long source, what is the specific part that has most significance in your thinking?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Dead Sea Scrolls, which contain Jewish writings from the years 400 B.C. to A.D. 100, include copies of deuterocanonical books like Sirach, Tobit, and Baruch

Ethiopian Old Testament also includes what is called the deuterocanonical books: Tobit, Judith, 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch.
 
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Philip_B

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It is either 66 or 73. That is the issue.
You demand a binomial answer, however, that is not entirely appropriate for this topic, about which many nuanced views have persisted, including Jerome, The Anglican Fathers, the Lutheran Fathers, and indeed I suspect several contemporary Catholic writers.

So you have some clarity. I affirm them as part of the general canon of scripture, however, I would never use them on their own to affirm that which must be believed unto salvation. There are several places where an NT writer has relied on the LXX and indeed some of these particular works belong and are part of the canon.

The real issue is not simply how many books, but rather the nature and the force of scripture. There are many places where we make adjustments. Much of scripture affirms monogamy, yet there are clear examples where that may not have been followed. Despite the importance of the first-born son, there are some key examples where the 2nd born is more important. It is the lore, the story of God's people, and some of it may even be law, but to treat it all that way seems a difficult position to substantiate.

So my position is that none of this is binomial.
 
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ozso

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His Church is made up of sinners. But on the issue of faith, She is a constant equalled by no other man made Church

How do you know they didn't? Or are you making the assumption that everything He taught was written down?

Exactly. And both Jesus and Paul told us to listen to "The Church".
For the most part the church has done well. But historically mistakes have been made in the last 2000 years. Many were eventually corrected. Some haven't been yet.

The idea that there's unrecorded teaching of the apostles floating around doesn't make any sense. I've gone over it before in other threads. If say Paul taught something orally, then someone would have put it in writing attributing it to him. And also we know how post apostolic doctrine, dogma and practices were established. It's very clear who was involved in the decision making and when it was enacted.

They told us to abide by what they taught and to reject any teaching outside of that. Paul couldn't have been any clearer or more emphatic about that.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The idea that there's unrecorded teaching of the apostles floating around doesn't make any sense.
Why does the idea of apostolic teaching as yet undocumented make no sense, and why would it not make sense 100, 500, 1000, 1500, and 1950 years ago?
If say Paul taught something orally, then someone would have put it in writing attributing it to him.
Saint Peter wrote very little; saint Mark is believed to have recorded some of saint Peter's sermons which he used to write the Gospel according to saint Mark.

Saints Thomas, James, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, and Simeon the zealot, all of whom were apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, left no writings that anyone will find in a New Testament. There were 12 apostles chosen by the Lord, Judas was replaced with Matthias, and there are no writings from saint Matthias in a New Testament.

Which of the 12 apostles left their teaching in written form that can be found in a New Testament?
  • Peter
  • James
  • John
  • Andrew
  • Bartholomew or Nathanael
  • James, the Lesser or Younger
  • Judas Matthias
  • Jude or Thaddeus
  • Matthew or Levi
  • Philip
  • Simon the Zealot
  • Thomas
Yet each of these men was directly addressed by the Lord Jesus, when he gave the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded".
(Matthew 28:19-20 ESV).
And also we know how post apostolic doctrine, dogma and practices were established. It's very clear who was involved in the decision making and when it was enacted.
Among the things that we do know about Church synods and councils is that the bishops and their attendant helpers prayed to the Lord our God that what they said and what they decided would be according to his will, and be guided by the Holy Spirit. Look at what they say for their work:
From Eusebius, Life of Constantine III:12.

It was once my chief desire, dearest friends, to enjoy the display of your united presence. Now that this desire is fulfilled, I feel myself bound to render thanks to God the universal King because, in addition to all his other benefits, he has granted me a blessing higher than all the rest, in permitting me to see you not only all assembled together, but all united in a common harmony of sentiment. I pray therefore that no malignant adversary may henceforth interfere to mar our happy state; I pray that since the impious hostility of the tyrants[54] has been forever removed by the power of God our Savior, that spirit who delights in evil may devise no other means for exposing the divine law to blasphemous defamation.

For, in my judgment, internal strife within the Church of God is far more evil and dangerous than any kind of war or conflict, and these our differences appear to me more grievous than any outward trouble. Accordingly, when, by the will and with the cooperation of God, I had been victorious over my enemies, I thought that nothing more remained but to return thanks to him and sympathize in the joy of those whom he had restored to freedom through my instrumentality. As soon as I heard that news which I had least expected to receive—I mean the news of your dissension—I judged it to be of no secondary importance, but with the earnest desire that a remedy for this evil also might be found through my means, I immediately sent to require your presence.

And now I rejoice in beholding your assembly. But I feel that my desires will be most completely fulfilled when I can see you all united in one judgment, with that common spirit of peace and concord prevailing among you all, which it becomes you, as consecrated to the service of God, to commend to others. Do not delay, then, dear friends; do not delay, you ministers of God and faithful servants of him who is our common Lord and Savior. Begin from this moment to discard the causes of that disunion which has existed among you and remove the perplexities of controversy by embracing the principles of peace. For by such conduct you will at the same time be acting in a manner most pleasing to the supreme God, and you will confer an exceeding favour on me who am your fellow servant.
 
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ozso

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Why does the idea of apostolic teaching as yet undocumented make no sense, and why would it not make sense 100, 500, 1000, 1500, and 1950 years ago?

Saint Peter wrote very little; saint Mark is believed to have recorded some of saint Peter's sermons which he used to write the Gospel according to saint Mark.

Saints Thomas, James, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, and Simeon the zealot, all of whom were apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, left no writings that anyone will find in a New Testament. There were 12 apostles chosen by the Lord, Judas was replaced with Matthias, and there are no writings from saint Matthias in a New Testament.

Which of the 12 apostles left their teaching in written form that can be found in a New Testament?
  • Peter
  • James
  • John
  • Andrew
  • Bartholomew or Nathanael
  • James, the Lesser or Younger
  • Judas Matthias
  • Jude or Thaddeus
  • Matthew or Levi
  • Philip
  • Simon the Zealot
  • Thomas
Yet each of these men was directly addressed by the Lord Jesus, when he gave the Great Commission to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded".
(Matthew 28:19-20 ESV).
How is anyone supposed to know unrecorded teaching from 2000 years ago? You could say it's all been strictly oral, but who's the keeper of the oral teaching no one ever wrote down for two millenia?
Among the things that we do know about Church synods and councils is that the bishops and their attendant helpers prayed to the Lord our God that what they said and what they decided would be according to his will, and be guided by the Holy Spirit. Look at what they say for their work:
Then why did the church evoke edicts, policies, practices that were later considered wrong and repealed? It's either all of the decisions made by the Catholic church have purely been from God, or some were not from God.
 
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Valletta

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How is anyone supposed to know unrecorded teaching from 2000 years ago? You could say it's all been strictly oral, but who's the keeper of the oral teaching no one ever wrote down for two millenia?
Why would you think that the Word of God transmitted orally from the Apostles, outside of Sacred Scripture, was never written down? What about the Church Fathers?
 
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ozso

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Why would you think that the Word of God transmitted orally from the Apostles, outside of Sacred Scripture, was never written down? What about the Church Fathers?
I don't think that. It seemed to me that's what was being claimed.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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How is anyone supposed to know unrecorded teaching from 2000 years ago?
Well, there is passing on the tradition verbally, and there is the Holy Spirit, and there is human memory when combined those things can explain transmission for 2,000 years. After all, in the case of Australian Aboriginal culture they managed to transmit their culture and stories for 65,000 years and they had no alphabetic and hieroglyphic writing, what they did have was painting, songs, and storytelling. If it worked for 65,000 years without an explicit promise from the Lord Jesus, I am confident that the Lord Jesus and his people can manage 2,000 years.
 
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ozso

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Well, there is passing on the tradition verbally, and there is the Holy Spirit, and there is human memory. Combined those things can explain transmission over 65,000 years - in the case of Australian Aboriginal culture. They had no alphabetic and hieroglyphic writing, but they had some painting, songs, and storytelling. If it worked for 65,000 years without an explicit promise from the Lord Jesus, I am confident that the Lord Jesus and his people can manage 2,000 years.
Yes but we're talking about official Catholic doctrine, dogma and practices.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Yes but we're talking about official Catholic doctrine, dogma and practices.
well, no. We are not talking about official dogma, which is always written when it is called dogma. We are talking about Apostolic Tradition and that is a mixture of inspired texts (also called the holy scriptures), other texts that are not in the canon of holy scripture, and actions that people see and follow but don't always have a written document showing how a thing is to look or be done, and there is verbal transmission spoken from one bishop to his presbyters and other bishops, and there is the liturgy itself which teaches Catholics a great deal about the faith without being inspired scripture, really, most of human experience and knowledge is not written, I think.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Well, there is passing on the tradition verbally, and there is the Holy Spirit, and there is human memory when combined those things can explain transmission for 2,000 years. After all, in the case of Australian Aboriginal culture they managed to transmit their culture and stories for 65,000 years and they had no alphabetic and hieroglyphic writing, what they did have was painting, songs, and storytelling. If it worked for 65,000 years without an explicit promise from the Lord Jesus, I am confident that the Lord Jesus and his people can manage 2,000 years.
Yes but we're talking about official Catholic doctrine, dogma and practices.
well, no. We are not talking about official dogma, which is always written when it is called dogma. We are talking about Apostolic Tradition and that is a mixture of inspired texts (also called the holy scriptures), other texts that are not in the canon of holy scripture, and actions that people see and follow but don't always have a written document showing how a thing is to look or be done, and there is verbal transmission spoken from one bishop to his presbyters and other bishops, and there is the liturgy itself which teaches Catholics a great deal about the faith without being inspired scripture, really, most of human experience and knowledge is not written, I think.
Okay, I edited my first reply, shown above, and want to have it in view, because it is easy to miss revised posts.
 
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rturner76

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Really it seems that the idea is that the Bible should be put aside in favor of unscriptural doctrine, dogma, tradition and practices that began centuries after the founding of the church.
We believe that all our dogma, tradition, and doctrine IS supported by the Bible and that the brand new churches do not have as accurate of an interpretation as the Church that was founded by the Apostles and who voted on what books would be included in the Biblican cannon. One might think that the church that wrote the Bible would have a better than the churches that made their own revisions and took out the parts of the Bible that they disagreed with
"Our Bible has seven extra Old Testament books, because we value the Bible more than they do... but they value the Bible too much!". That doesn't seem particularly logical.
I think what's missing in that statement is they value their personal version of the Bible too much. We are to have faith in God and learn from the Bible, not just have faith in the Bible as if 100 people who read it with no guidance don't come up with 100 different ways to interpret it. We see the evidence of that with literally 100,000 different Protestant churches.
 
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