Why teach creationism in public school science classes?

The Barbarian · Jun 29, 2003

Actually,church attendence is up a little, but the faithful are slowly rejecting creationism. In the last ten years fewer Christians have expressed a belief in creationism.

But it's true; Christians should not want religious doctrines taught in public schools, and most of us don't.

TwinCrier · Jun 29, 2003

Creation isn't a 'religious' doctrine. There is scientific evidence to support creation, so why supress it? I can see not allowing bible verses since it might offend non-theists for some reason but to censor all evidence supporting creation is wrong. Students should be given all sides and allowed to make their own decisions about what they want to believe. If evolution cannot stand in the face of scientific and objective evidence it should not be taught at all.

Arikay · Jun 29, 2003

Maybe you could start a thread with this scientific evidence. As I have yet to see any creationist evidence that has been able to stand up to scrutiny, like evolution has.

Quite often the evidence for creationism is found to be false or misleading.
False and misleading evidence is probably not something that should really be taught in science.

TwinCrier said:
Creation isn't a 'religious' doctrine. There is scientific evidence to support creation, so why supress it? I can see not allowing bible verses since it might offend non-theists for some reason but to censor all evidence supporting creation is wrong. Students should be given all sides and allowed to make their own decisions about what they want to believe. If evolution cannot stand in the face of scientific and objective evidence it should not be taught at all.

notto · Jun 29, 2003

TwinCrier said:
Creation isn't a 'religious' doctrine. There is scientific evidence to support creation, so why supress it? I can see not allowing bible verses since it might offend non-theists for some reason but to censor all evidence supporting creation is wrong. Students should be given all sides and allowed to make their own decisions about what they want to believe. If evolution cannot stand in the face of scientific and objective evidence it should not be taught at all.

Not sure what version of "Creation" you are discussing, but Young Earth Creationism has been falsified. No matter how much evidence supports it, it does not make the evidence that falsifies it go away. The earth is not young and animals were not all specially created at the same time.

Evolution CAN stand in the face of scientific and objective evidence and that is why it is taught in school. It has not been falsified and a better theory of the reason for the diversity we see in the world and the evidence we find in the fossil record and in our studies of DNA has not been presented. Until a better theory is presented or evolution is falsified, it is the best mainstream science has to offer. This is what should be taught in high school science classes just as is done in any other subject area.

OneLargeToe · Jun 29, 2003

TwinCrier said:
There is scientific evidence to support creation, so why supress it?

There is NO EVIDENCE that supports creation. ZERO, ZIP, NADA.

Pete Harcoff · Jun 29, 2003

TwinCrier said:
Creation isn't a 'religious' doctrine. There is scientific evidence to support creation, so why supress it?

It is religious doctrine, as it is derived from religious beliefs. If it wasn't, creationist organizations like AIG wouldn't need little disclaimers like this:

"By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record."

No matter how you slice it, that ain't science.

I can see not allowing bible verses since it might offend non-theists for some reason but to censor all evidence supporting creation is wrong.

The only "censorship" occurs with ideas that have been falsified by the evidence. There is a reason things like lamarckism, geocentrism, etc, are not taught in schools. Creationism is no different.

Students should be given all sides and allowed to make their own decisions about what they want to believe.

Except that science isn't about choosing what you want to believe or picking what you find the most comfortable. It's about finding explanations that best fit the observable evidence and for which there is no falsifying evidence.

If evolution cannot stand in the face of scientific and objective evidence it should not be taught at all.

Except it has, for the last 150 years. Right now, it's the best explanation for the diversity of biological life on Earth, until a better one comes along.

Cantuar · Jun 29, 2003

Except it has, for the last 150 years. Right now, it's the best explanation for the diversity of biological life on Earth, until a better one comes along.

And that better one will also be a scientific theory, developed on the basis of evidence, it won't be a selective rendition of scripture.

wblastyn · Jun 29, 2003

TwinCrier said:
Creation isn't a 'religious' doctrine. There is scientific evidence to support creation, so why supress it? I can see not allowing bible verses since it might offend non-theists for some reason but to censor all evidence supporting creation is wrong. Students should be given all sides and allowed to make their own decisions about what they want to believe. If evolution cannot stand in the face of scientific and objective evidence it should not be taught at all.

Science isn't about what you "believe" in, it's about accepting or rejecting theories based on the evidence.

Creationism has been rejected because the evidence does not support it, but falsifies it. So it would be like teaching the earth is flat. Would you like your children to be taught the earth might be flat (even though that has been falsified, but the Bible says the earth is flat..so) or it might be spherical.

So far all the evidence supports evolution and that is what it taught.

SUNSTONE · Jun 29, 2003

OneLargeToe said:
There is NO EVIDENCE that supports creation. ZERO, ZIP, NADA.

WRONG

I'm sure you are familiar with the big bang theory correct?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1

BANG

The the laws of physics, God is way more believable than evolution.

I remember listening to a teacher, talk about evolution. But then turned around and said he believed in God. In other words he didn't believe that the world came from evolution.

It takes a large amount of blind faith to believe in evolution. Just a bunch of mixed ideas, depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer.

You ever see a car create itself? How about a watch? How about something simple like a sheet of paper?
Yet this universe is so comlicated and delicate that it screams of a designer.

SUNSTONE · Jun 29, 2003

wblastyn said:
Science isn't about what you "believe" in, it's about accepting or rejecting theories based on the evidence.

Creationism has been rejected because the evidence does not support it, but falsifies it. So it would be like teaching the earth is flat. Would you like your children to be taught the earth might be flat (even though that has been falsified, but the Bible says the earth is flat..so) or it might be spherical.

So far all the evidence supports evolution and that is what it taught.

WRONG

It does not say the earth is flat.

What evidence falsifies creation?

If evidence supports evolution, then your not really sure are you? That takes a leap of faith, to believe that evolution is the answer.

Kyubi-no-Youko · Jun 29, 2003

SUNSTONE said:
WRONG

I'm sure you are familiar with the big bang theory correct?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1

BANG

The the laws of physics, God is way more believable than evolution.

I remember listening to a teacher, talk about evolution. But then turned around and said he believed in God. In other words he didn't believe that the world came from evolution.

It takes a large amount of blind faith to believe in evolution. Just a bunch of mixed ideas, depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer.

You ever see a car create itself? How about a watch? How about something simple like a sheet of paper?
Yet this universe is so comlicated and delicate that it screams of a designer.

Have you ever opened a book on Evolution (A science book...not a biased one) ? Do you even know what it is? Do you know it has nothing to do with creation and that the Big Bang is a TOTALLY different theory? Did you know that Evolution does NOT equal atheism?

CreationISM has been falsified.

And I am not a scientst...but you cannot compare a car creating itself to evolution. I think I may be right in saying I discovered a strawman. I will leave it to more qualified experts to tear it down.

Evolution isn't about faith. Certainly not the blind kind. Evolution is science. It involves FACTS and EVIDENCE.

Religion and Creationsm is solely based on faith. Of course it is EASIER to say 'God did it'. However, the easy answers are not always the right ones.

OneLargeToe · Jun 29, 2003

SUNSTONE said:
WRONG

I'm sure you are familiar with the big bang theory correct?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1

1) No where in the The Big Bang theory does it describe a god giving it the kick-start.

2) A Bible verse is not evidence.

SUNSTONE · Jun 29, 2003

OneLargeToe said:
1) No where in the The Big Bang theory does it describe a god giving it the kick-start.

2) A Bible verse is not evidence.

Your right it doesn't. But the fact is, they don't know where the prebang came from. Thats where it takes faith to believe it was God.
My faith doesn't come from science, it was there, but science helps strengthen my faith.

A bible verse is evidence. One sentence discribes the big bang theory.

For years people said that the bible was wrong, because in the book of revelations, it said, that the elements would melt with fervant heat. And up untill the 1940's it was believed that elements couldn't be broken down. That all changed with one atomic bomb.
More evidence.

OneLargeToe · Jun 29, 2003

SUNSTONE said:
Your right it doesn't. But the fact is, they don't know where the prebang came from. Thats where it takes faith to believe it was God.

Faith is not evidence for creation. Earlier, you said that my assertion that there was no evidence for creation is "WRONG".

So, if I am "WRONG", where is the evidence, Sunstone?

Arikay · Jun 29, 2003

"BANG"

Unfortunatly there wasnt any "bang" in the Big bang.

"The the laws of physics, God is way more believable than evolution."

Maybe to you, but not to science.
Do you mean to say that you have scientific evidence for god?
Maybe you should learn more about evolution then.

"I remember listening to a teacher, talk about evolution. But then turned around and said he believed in God. In other words he didn't believe that the world came from evolution."

Its a common missconception that evolution = Atheisms.
science is agnostic and Evolution does not = atheism. God could have created with Evolution.

"You ever see a car create itself? How about a watch? How about something simple like a sheet of paper?"

False arguments. We have Not found any natural mechanism that creates cars. But we have found one that Evolves animals.

"It does not say the earth is flat."

Yes it does, One example is Isa 40:22. It says "circle" Now if you believe circle means sphere, you should look at the hebrew of the bible. The hebrew word used for "circle" means Circle or circuit. If you check the bible you will find a different word used for "ball." Thus the inspired writers chose a 2d circle instead of a 3d ball to describe the earth. And who is to question the Inspired writers?

SUNSTONE said:
WRONG

I'm sure you are familiar with the big bang theory correct?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1

BANG

The the laws of physics, God is way more believable than evolution.

I remember listening to a teacher, talk about evolution. But then turned around and said he believed in God. In other words he didn't believe that the world came from evolution.

It takes a large amount of blind faith to believe in evolution. Just a bunch of mixed ideas, depending on who you ask, you will get a different answer.

You ever see a car create itself? How about a watch? How about something simple like a sheet of paper?
Yet this universe is so comlicated and delicate that it screams of a designer.

Jet Black · Jun 29, 2003

SUNSTONE said:
Your right it doesn't. But the fact is, they don't know where the prebang came from. Thats where it takes faith to believe it was God.

there is no evidence that God did it though.

SUNSTONE · Jun 29, 2003

Kyubi-no-Youko said:
Have you ever opened a book on Evolution (A science book...not a biased one) ? Do you even know what it is? Do you know it has nothing to do with creation and that the Big Bang is a TOTALLY different theory? Did you know that Evolution does NOT equal atheism?

CreationISM has been falsified.

And I am not a scientst...but you cannot compare a car creating itself to evolution. I think I may be right in saying I discovered a strawman. I will leave it to more qualified experts to tear it down.

Evolution isn't about faith. Certainly not the blind kind. Evolution is science. It involves FACTS and EVIDENCE.

Religion and Creationsm is solely based on faith. Of course it is EASIER to say 'God did it'. However, the easy answers are not always the right ones.

I went to school, and I remember them teaching evolution. I also read the enyclopedia of evolution. And in it, it defended both evolution and creation. Saying that neither is proven or disproven.
I have heard two professors debate this same arguement. Both said it required faith to believe what they believed.Both thought it took alot of faith, in the opposite of there beliefs, at the same time saying it took a little leap of faith to believe what they believe.

Evolution does go against creation, because it believes that everything happened by chance.

Creation has been falsified, oh really, did you discover this yourself, mr. scientist. Please do tell your reasoning,your beliefs, your faith.

And while your at it, explain to me how everything came about through evolution,and the proof that you have. I can tell you right now your wasting your time, because if it was proven, then those professors, and books wouldn't say what they say.

So something like a human being which is more complicated than man can dream of inventing, just happened by chance, but yet there has never been a car made by chance, ever, ever, ever. never. ever. Not even a simple watch. You can't even find a simple row of trees, that wasn't planted that way on purpose.

Arikay · Jun 29, 2003

"For years people said that the bible was wrong, because in the book of revelations, it said, that the elements would melt with fervant heat."

This is a common misconception of the verse. If you read the entire section, you will find that God does the melting during the end times

So, either we are as powerfull as god. Or the end times have come and gone and we werent chosen.

SUNSTONE said:
Your right it doesn't. But the fact is, they don't know where the prebang came from. Thats where it takes faith to believe it was God.
My faith doesn't come from science, it was there, but science helps strengthen my faith.

A bible verse is evidence. One sentence discribes the big bang theory.

For years people said that the bible was wrong, because in the book of revelations, it said, that the elements would melt with fervant heat. And up untill the 1940's it was believed that elements couldn't be broken down. That all changed with one atomic bomb.
More evidence.

Pete Harcoff · Jun 29, 2003

SUNSTONE said:
What evidence falsifies creation?

No evidence falsifies creation. The evidence, however, falsifies certain brands of creationism. In particular, young-Earth creationism is falsified by various lines of evidence relating to the age of the Earth, biological history of the Earth, global flood (or lack thereof), etc.

If evidence supports evolution, then your not really sure are you? That takes a leap of faith, to believe that evolution is the answer.

There is no leap of faith. There is, however, examination of the the available evidence and choosing the most likely explanation. All evolution is, is a mechanism for the current diversity of life on Earth based on observations of life on Earth and the history that life has left us (i.e. fossil record, genetic record). You can choose to accept or reject that mechanism, but it exists based on the evidence.

SUNSTONE · Jun 29, 2003

There is evidence, you just can't prove it. Its the same with evolution.

My evidence is based on experiences of answered prayers. The wisdom I have learned through revelation.

The evidence is the body you are walking in. Take a look at your pc monitor. Did it come by chance, or was it designed?
Now what is more complicated, the human body, or a monitor?

I pray for healings, and poof they happen. Now I know you haven't seen any healings done, but if you had, wouldn't you atleast consider that evidence?

Why teach creationism in public school science classes?

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