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Why take such a stand against homosexuality?

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KCKID

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As far as this issue of following the Bible is concerned, it is not proper to say that simply because someone trusts the Bible more than they trust some new liberal scholar or someone who is dismissive of Paul that they worship the Bible and not God.

Who said that someone is putting trust in a new liberal scholar in preference to the Bible? Who are you referring to? If you're referring to John Shelby Spong he doesn't dimiss the Bible or Paul as far as I know. He just interprets much of the Bible differently than does mainstream Christianity. And, it makes so much more sense.


Maybe we should ask God to alleviate the confusion that has occurred between the Bible and mainstream Christianity then. Why doesn't He help out some when He sees sincere people searching for the truth? One cannot in all reason ignore the fact that one Christian sect is at loggerheads with another, and another with another, etc. The Bible itself is - or appears to be - full of mixed messages and many rather double standards. If you're a Bible literalist - or close enough to it - how do you possibly reconcile the God of the OT with Jesus of the NT?


I don't know whether John Shelby Spong considers himself a 'liberal thinker' but I believe that he explains biblical principles very well even though those principles may clash with those of the Evangelical Church. Furthermore, not everyone who might think 'liberal' per se is using such as a cover for 'anything goes' behavior which is usually what is suggested by 'mainstreamers'. In many cases, I believe, it's freeing people up as per Jesus from persecution BY The Church.

If you choose to separate yourself from the mainstream of Christianity, own that. Do not cast aspersions on those who choose not to follow your lead into this new territory you believe you have found.

Many DO own that, Shane, and they let others know in no uncertain terms. You must know by now that people are not so much against mainstream Christianity per se but more against the hate-mongering (you're condemned to hell!) that much of mC preaches to minority groups who don't claim membership to that club. While I could be wrong I find it hard to believe that many of those who claim to know Jesus actually do so. As far as I know, you, Shane, believe that only those who believe precisely what YOU believe will be 'saved' ...am I correct?
 
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KCKID

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I find myself agreeing with almost your entire post.

Hmmm . . .that's a worry.
 
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CCGirl

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Your flashing signature is making me have seizures.:o
 
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brightmorningstar

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To KCKID,
You know if I see something that not only goes against what the Bible says in context but has no Biblical support I will challenge it as false.
If you're referring to John Shelby Spong he doesn't dimiss the Bible or Paul as far as I know. He just interprets much of the Bible differently than does mainstream Christianity..

Let me ask you a question, one which I wouldn’t ask a non-Christian.
I am sure many of us would contest Fred Phelps view is fundamentally not Christian as well because if God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes shall not perish but have eternal life, (John 3:16) God can’t hate anyone because it says God loves and whoever believes.
However similarly I would deny that your view can be a Christian one either when same sex activity is excluded and condemned in the Bible as seen.
So do you accept that Fred Phelps interpretation that God hates homosexuals is also a valid interpretation? If not who gets to decide on which interpretation is right and why?
 
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KCKID

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Time for bed. I'll respond to your post tomorrow. Thanks.
 
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David Brider

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By altering the very meaning of marriage, you destroy it and the surrounding family law that has grown around it, both common law and statutory.

Extending the parameters of marriage to include same-gender couples as well as opposite-gender couples isn't "changing the meaning of marriage". It's just extending its parameters. Neither is it destroying marriage, as far as I can tell, going by those nations and states which have already made same-gender marriages or civil unions legal.

David.
 
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David Brider

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Also why do liberals take such a huge stand against Christianity?

Seeing as I'm both a liberal and a Christian, I can assure you that not all liberals take a huge stand against Christianity.

David.
 
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Shane Roach

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Your flashing signature is making me have seizures.:o

There is a scroll bar you can use on your browser to scroll it off your screen.

FWIW, I and a bunch of people have this banner because we enjoy being silly and repping each other. I think the Relaxation forum is open to all users. If you (or anyone else here) ever want to lighten up a bit and get to know people here as people, it would be great if you were to check in some time.

http://www.christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=941
 
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CruciFixed

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I actually have epilepsy and I think your siggy is kinda neat.
 
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Shane Roach

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I actually have epilepsy and I think your siggy is kinda neat.

Hehe... Thanks!

I didn't make it. I jus' borrowed it (with permission!).

Come to think of it, the relaxation forums are rather carnival-esque in the number of large, colorful, blinking images in people's siggy's....

Just fair warning...

I am not all up on exactly what does indeed trigger seizures. I know video games can. That's the extent of my knowledge.
 
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psalm1:3

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I find you very hostile. I know it took a long time, but i don't respond to rude remarks. Not often anyways. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion. You remind me of a muslim friend i had once. he always used to put me down, send me hate-mail, all because i was christian and not muslim. we didn't stay friends for long.
 
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Criada

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I am not sure how long you have been at CF... I know that you have made a lot of wonderful posts in other areas, and offered support to others.
This part of the forum is open, and tends to be a little more robust, with less polite posts. On the whole though, it is good natured, and people do respect one another.
There is certainly not anything approaching 'hate mail', and anything like that should be reported to staff. But, strong debate is common, and perhaps other areas would be more comfortable if you dislike conflict. Many people do stick to the areas where there is little or no debate.
 
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KCKID

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KCKID said:
Yes, I admit that my post IS rather lengthy, psalm. However, responding to your post DID take some thought, time, and effort on my part so I would appreciate your simply not dismissing it. That's kinda rude, y'know.


You find me very hostile? Wow, that's a new one. Although I AM very opinionated at times I'm hardly what one would call hostile. Perhaps you're exceptionally 'touchy' ...?

I believe you were 'warned', psalm, when you first came here that you would need to remain on your toes to debate the issues that are presented on this particular forum. While I will discuss an issue with you and either agree or disagree with you I can assure you that you will not get any hate-mail or personal 'put downs' from me. And, I consider myself a Christian also but I can't come to grips with Christians who use the scriptures to put others down. Whenever you or anyone presents a biblical text - which is, after all, merely a string of words - that condemns someone for being who they are then you or whoever are putting someone else down. You're making someone else feel bad and less than human.

From what I've seen of your posts you don't put people down with any malice; however, the results are still the same.

Was that hostile in your opinion?
 
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Shane Roach

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Hostile
1 a: of or relating to an enemy <hostile fire> b: marked by malevolence <a hostile act> c: openly opposed or resisting <a hostile critic> <hostile to new ideas> d (1): not hospitable <plants growing in a hostile environment> (2): having an intimidating, antagonistic, or offensive nature <a hostile workplace>

Sexual orientation is not a sin. Please be clear on that fact.

Depending on how you present that argument, I'd probably be inclined to agree, but the phrase "please by clear on that fact" is presumptuous and hostile.



What do you mean 'abolished'? You mean like slavery? Or the law to execute disobedient children? Or God's 4th-commandment concerning the Sabbath? What?

What in the world is slavery to do with this? Or laws executing children. This is not only hostile, but utterly ignorant. When you take a statement and liken in to unrelated issues as if you were accusing them of something, that is hostile.

Here is a relevant scripture:



It was predicted in the Bible that Christianity would be abolished? Which scripture says that?



Newsflash? I've received counseling PM's for less. This entire response is hostile and off topic. No one ever said you could not love someone without a Bible in your hand, or that things had not happened in the past in God's name that were not Godly, but your assertions as to what is and is not Godly, fashioned as they are from the arguments of other people, are no more worthy than those in the Bible, and indeed I can not help but wonder why anyone would argue that the Bible is not a much more reliable source than you, or Bishop Spong, or anyone else?



If a church is not being productive in the 'love' department, then it probably needs to be torn down.

And I suppose you shall judge whose churches are to fall. In any event, how do you not see the hostility here?



I generally find it better not to respond to rhetoric, especially when it's rhetoric that is driven by pure emotion.

You complain that your post was dismissed, yet this is as dismissive and, yes.... hostile an attitude towards someone's statement as you might complain of having suffered, and more so.



I believe in Jesus. I tell you what, if you can point me to ONE text where Jesus had something to say about gay freedom I might consider joining you in your condemnation of if. Deal?

God gave the law, and Jesus is God. Do you not believe this? Where does this constant demand for something in red letters come from? It is illegitimate, and yes, hostile. Whenever you demand something unreasonable of someone, and then turn around and blame them for not producing it, that is hostile.



Nor can homosexuals. Isn't that the whole point of what we're discussing?

According to God, they can.



Are you likening the work of the Holy Spirit to people getting drunk and excited? Did you even read her writing before you responded. You tore what is essentially one idea -- that since she repented of sin she has renewed her sense of the presence of the Holy Spirit, and turned it into a farce. You are essentially demeaning the experience she is sharing with you. Not hostile? I guess... in your world... maybe...?



But, again ...a homosexual orientation is not a sin to begin with so why should one feel the need to repent? This is silly.

This really just becomes baiting if you repeat it over and over without support. It should be clear enough by now that many simply do not accept the excuses you give for why homosexuals supposedly cannot resist sin whereas the rest of us are required to do so.



What's clear to you? That you should kill victims of rape? kill disobedient children? Stone to death adulterers ...but only females? dishonor the Sabbath by instead keeping the 'man-made holy day', Sunday? What?

This is the second time in one post you just start going off on tangents basically insulting the intelligence of the person you are talking to. Yes, it feels hostile.....

What I just mentioned - and much more nasty stuff - is in the Bible to be read and obeyed. Which parts are clear to you and which parts did you toss out or ignore?

You'd get more answers to your questions if you left off mocking people. I cannot answer for her, but I can answer for me.

This and the verses which make clear salvation is by faith through grace in Jesus explain what is and is not required. For Jews, there was never any injunction that they should abandon the law, but rather to cease making the law the focus, or requiring both Christ and the law.



Nice, as long as you do so without ignoring the reality about LIFE and PEOPLE and not couching everything of a complex nature into some warm and fuzzy belief system that relies purely on faith.

The same faith you say you share? You do not see this statement in any way as dismissive and hostile?




She appears to be talking about the inner reasoning that led her to sin. It's an exceedingly common way of referencing temptations, and is Biblical. Accusing her of being a "child" is hostile.




What we have is the Spirit of God speaking to us, showing us the nature of God. It is absolutely from God. The rest of this is just you asserting your opinion as fact. I do not have a huge problem with that, but in polite discussion people often acknowledge back and forth to one another that they realize the other does not see things the same way.



Great. But what does that have to do with homosexuality?

Turn wholeheartedly to God, repent, and He will give you this sort of life experience.

Why would she not want to reply to you? Because you butcher everything she says, say hostile, unrelated things, accuse her of being childish and judgmental, and then presumptuously present your opinion as fact.

Aside from all of that, no one is obliged to speak to you anyway, and someone saying they find you abrupt and hostile should be more a sign for you to say, "Well I didn't mean to be if I was," or some such rather than to treat the person you've been insulting as if you are the offended party. Sure, maybe in your opinion and the opinions of others she was being hypersensitive, and I am not saying your post is so horrid I would want to report it or anything, but how in the world you do not recognize some of what you do here as hostile is beyond me.

If you want to discuss things with a certain brand of person, you have to be willing to speak to them on their own terms, or they will retreat from you. It is not their job to accomodate you any more than it is yours to accomodate them.
 
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Wow! You leave a post for a few days and it explodes! I thought it was time to jump back into the conversation, if only to say a tremendous : Thank you.

This discussion has given me a lot to think about and to: unclehermit, WiccanChild, b&wpac4 and especially LightHorseman I applaud you.

A note to Psalm1:3 Im sorry But you are losing a losing battle.

Thank you all once again for this in-depth and interesting debate.
 
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Shane Roach

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We'll see who wins the war when the King returns.
 
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Shane Roach

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Rom 1:28-32

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV
 
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