Why such a seeming contrast in NDE accounts where people saw hell... and heaven?

[tturt]

I don't know of anyone who adopts these accounts as doctrine.

One of my aunt's said Yahweh had shown her the pearly gates and sang You are My Sunshine all night before she passed early in the a.m. Later I found "The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass." Rev 21:21 NKJV

 

[DennisTate]

I don't know of anyone who adopts these accounts as doctrine.

One of my aunt's said Yahweh had shown her the pearly gates and sang You are My Sunshine all night before she passed early in the a.m. Later I found "The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass." Rev 21:21 NKJV

I don't think that I would want to advocate using them as doctrine either but .......in trench warfare...........or in a desperate situation.........sometimes drastic action is called for......

This would seem on the surface to be an entirely different topic.....but if I believe that there is a heaven..........and an all too real hell and/or purgatory.........then how far would I go to help somebody to come to church and get their lives right with God?????!!!

.....................


An apology to all members of the military and police!
I just want to say that I am truly sorry for all those years that I was close to believing in near total pacifism! Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua once asked a question of the Scribes and Pharisees that should have made it obvious to me that an extreme situation can call for drastic action by a Christian or Jew who feels called into a life in the military or police!

Mark 3:4 "And he saith unto them, Is it lawful to do good on the sabbath days, or to do evil? to save life, or to kill? But they held their peace."

I am almost certain that Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua was referring to the situation faced by the Machabees when Greco - Syrian armies were attacking Jewish communities on the Sabbath.

One community had refused to fight back....but the Machabees....in my opinion correctly judged that this is a violation of an admonition by King Solomon:

Ecclesiastes 7:16 "Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?"

Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible, First Book Of Machabees Chapter 2
..."So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. [39] And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. [40] And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.

[41] And they determined in that day, saying: Whosoever shall come up against us to fight on the sabbath day, we will fight against him: and we will not all die, as our brethren that were slain in the secret places."

 

[DennisTate]

Could be there's no REAL truth in any of that stuff, and it's all "Rabbit trails".

NDE Foolishness isn't something that I'd waste my time on. Chances are they never really saw ANYTHING other than hallucinations.

On the other hand it is pretty impressive how blind people can see during a near death experience?????!!!

People Born Blind Can See During a Near-Death Experience

Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that Dr. Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons. As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Ring's latest book reprinted by permission.

.near-death.com/experiences/evidence03.html

 

[Alithis]

late comer to the thread

3 stories

1. ian macormak .. read/watch more here

this one is poignant for me because i know this man .and he has been preaching the gospel since then and still is today .

2. at the church he attended for some time in Hamilton NZ ..there was a young family got saved and at the christian camp at break their 9 year old son had visions and when he told every one what he had seen .. they showed him the book of revelations ..and he had seen the new Jerusalem and described it - having never heard of it before .

3 a couple of years ago an nz man died and was revived some hours later ..it is not known how or why docs couldn't understand how he revived .. but he is not a christian .. and in the only media interview he gave he would not share what he had seen because he said "it is not respectful to his mother and father to say what he had seen and eluded to it not being anything he ever wants to speak of .
------------------
God is "NOW" all that was and is and wil be is as now with him .
Paul speaks of being caught up .. the entire book of revelations is such also .

there are so many and while some are dubious to say the least -others have no reason to testify falsely ,no motive to do so when often there is only ridicule as their gain .

for me it has always been an ok sort of measure in considering a persons testimony that if they have nothing to gain but ridicule ..why would they bother but more so is .. where are they now and what life do they live ten years after the fact? -thats important to find out .

did they gain money did they gain fame did they push a false doctrine ?
NDE's and dreams and visions are quite different imo .

but the truth of the lord Jesus remains and his words are the measure of truth .

rick Joyner's book is a vision ..i think - not an NDE and it promotes one particular doctrine which i personally struggle with and so have never given the book too much credit - so that one remains in my dubious list ..

 

[tturt]

I've seen Howard Storm's testimony and he remains changed from his nde which happened decades ago. Before his nde, the only time he had heard of Yeshua was a few Sunday School lessons after being bused to a church when he was a child. He was a pastor and still might be.

 

[Alithis]

I've seen Howard Storm's testimony and he remains changed from his nde which happened decades ago. Before his nde, the only time he had heard of Yeshua was a few Sunday School lessons after being bused to a church when he was a child. He was a pastor and still might be.

i havnt yet listened to his entire testimony
but one thing is notable in all these accounts and i feel must be defined

a "near death experience "is NOT Automatically a salvation experience .

it is a step toward the realization of the need ,for after it one still must choose to follow the lord Jesus and listen to him

 

[tturt]

posted: a "near death experience "is NOT Automatically a salvation experience

That's been implied ? by anyone? In case it's assumed I did, I sure didn't/don't - not my intent.

 

[BlackSabb]

Could be there's no REAL truth in any of that stuff, and it's all "Rabbit trails".

NDE Foolishness isn't something that I'd waste my time on. Chances are they never really saw ANYTHING other than hallucinations.

I'm with this guy. It's been shown that a dying brain releases a flood of hallucinogenic chemicals extremely similar to ketamine. And I spoke to a girl once that overdosed on ketamine and she had the same "NDE" -white light, tunnel etc.

Tell me something, how can a "NDE" be fair? If you believe in the one true God and his Son, you are saved and if not, you are Hell bound. But some people supposedly get a sneak preview of Heaven, bypassing the requirement of saving faith, and get an unfair advantage of belief because they got to actually see Heaven-rather than believe like everyone else.

This is not fair at all. NDE's can't be real.

They're also extemely unscriptural. Some have claimed to visit both Heaven and Hell. Wrong-read your Bibles! Jesus clearly said that there is a gulf between the two that can't be crossed.

 

[Alithis]

posted: a "near death experience "is NOT Automatically a salvation experience

That's been implied ? by anyone? In case it's assumed I did, I sure didn't/don't - not my intent.

lol no , no one implied it ..i just felt the need to make the distinction

 

[Alithis]

I'm with this guy. It's been shown that a dying brain releases a flood of hallucinogenic chemicals extremely similar to ketamine. And I spoke to a girl once that overdosed on ketamine and she had the same "NDE" -white light, tunnel etc.

Tell me something, how can a "NDE" be fair? If you believe in the one true God and his Son, you are saved and if not, you are Hell bound. But some people supposedly get a sneak preview of Heaven, bypassing the requirement of saving faith, and get an unfair advantage of belief because they got to actually see Heaven-rather than believe like everyone else.

This is not fair at all. NDE's can't be real.

They're also extemely unscriptural. Some have claimed to visit both Heaven and Hell. Wrong-read your Bibles! Jesus clearly said that there is a gulf between the two that can't be crossed.

with man it is impossible but with God ..all things are possible .- so .. not so unscriptural after all

 

[dayhiker]

I read a NDE book written by a agnostic ER MD. I thought his research method was very valid.
His research found the 1 in ten who had an NDE had a memory of things that happened between the time they were conscious and the time they were revived. The last chapter in the end of his book he went thru about 25 natural explanations for NDEs and found none of them lined up medically with what the patient experienced. I wish I could give you the name of the book but I had to return it to the library 15 yrs ago.

 

[BlackSabb]

with man it is impossible but with God ..all things are possible .- so .. not so unscriptural after all

Yeah, but it is not "man" that said there is a gulf between Heaven and Hell that cannot be crossed-it is Jesus himself. You can't throw in a piece of scripture so far out of context that it's not funny, to negate the very words of Christ himself.

If Christ says something is impossible-then it's impossible. By the same twisted use of scripture that you used, I could say that unrepentant hard hearted Christ haters can go to Heaven-because with God, "all things are possible".

Please, don't post abuses of scripture. Christ said that there is a gulf between Heaven and Hell that can't be crossed. What part of that don't you get? Or are you so desperate to support these nonsense NDE's that you're attempting to usurp the words of Christ himself-with his very own words?

 

[Alithis]

Yeah, but it is not "man" that said there is a gulf between Heaven and Hell that cannot be crossed-it is Jesus himself. You can't throw in a piece of scripture so far out of context that it's not funny, to negate the very words of Christ himself.

If Christ says something is impossible-then it's impossible. By the same twisted use of scripture that you used, I could say that unrepentant hard hearted Christ haters can go to Heaven-because with God, "all things are possible".

Please, don't post abuses of scripture. Christ said that there is a gulf between Heaven and Hell that can't be crossed. What part of that don't you get? Or are you so desperate to support these nonsense NDE's that you're attempting to usurp the words of Christ himself-with his very own words?

yes but .. with man it is impossible .but with God -all things are possible

.God can take you where he wills and show you what he wills .

 

[tturt]

For possible explanations of the "the gulf" based on Scripture, read post #17.

 

[Merrily]

NDEs happen for sure and there are scriptural precedents.
It's what folks do with their NDE afterwards that matters.
Is someone using an NDE story to recruit followers into a new agey type path for example?
That happens.
I treat NDE accounts as I find them, they might be a pastoral opportunity but they can just as easily present pastoral problems.
Bit like our old friends the non- specific 'angel' boosters.

 

[BlackSabb]

yes but .. with man it is impossible .but with God -all things are possible

.God can take you where he wills and show you what he wills .

You truly are unbelievable. You start your own thread spewing hatred and contempt for others that don't subscribe to the manner that they post around here on CF and not believing in the fundamentals of Christianity, whilst completely showing a complete utter lack of knowledge of even the most basics of the Bible. Showing that you have been nothing but indoctrinated, you have never really come to any of your own conclusions.

You are taking a line from Jesus from a particular context and misappropriating it to another context. When Jesus said, "with man it's impossible, but with God all things are possible", He was referring to the story of a rich men entering Heaven. You cannot take that portion of scripture and abuse it for your own personal purposes to support your own personal doctrines. And you cannot have it both ways either. As I said before, Jesus said with God all things are possible:

1. When something is impossible with man
2. Specifically regard the parable of the rich young ruler.

But, as I clearly told you, when the Bible records that there is a gulf between Heaven and Hell that can't be crossed, it is Jesus himself that is saying that.

And you want to have it both ways, don't you? You want to stick to your made up doctrines claiming some out of context scripture whilst denying that to others. If everything is possible in your out of context way, then a Christ denying sinner can go to Heaven also.

Because all things are possible with God. Before you start threads slandering others, get a grip on the reality of the Bible and learn the meaning of the word:

Context.

 

[Alithis]

You truly are unbelievable. You start your own thread spewing hatred and contempt for others that don't subscribe to the manner that they post around here on CF and not believing in the fundamentals of Christianity, whilst completely showing a complete utter lack of knowledge of even the most basics of the Bible. Showing that you have been nothing but indoctrinated, you have never really come to any of your own conclusions.

You are taking a line from Jesus from a particular context and misappropriating it to another context. When Jesus said, "with man it's impossible, but with God all things are possible", He was referring to the story of a rich men entering Heaven. You cannot take that portion of scripture and abuse it for your own personal purposes to support your own personal doctrines. And you cannot have it both ways either. As I said before, Jesus said with God all things are possible:

1. When something is impossible with man
2. Specifically regard the parable of the rich young ruler.

But, as I clearly told you, when the Bible records that there is a gulf between Heaven and Hell that can't be crossed, it is Jesus himself that is saying that.

And you want to have it both ways, don't you? You want to stick to your made up doctrines claiming some out of context scripture whilst denying that to others. If everything is possible in your out of context way, then a Christ denying sinner can go to Heaven also.

Because all things are possible with God. Before you start threads slandering others, get a grip on the reality of the Bible and learn the meaning of the word:

Context.

well you made some error as i dont know what thread you refer to me starting ....

AND .. it was impossible for moses and the possible million folks with himto cross the red sea .. but God did it
it was impossible for a bush to burn and not be consumed and ..God did it
and it is impossible for a man to be born again .. but ...


and i do believe the lord Jesus is speaking of a time after the judgment .
also .hell and death and hades . all lumped together . is death (separation from God who is LIFE. and David said though i pass THROUGH the valley of the shadow of death i will fear no evil ...
he was speaking by inspiration of the Holy Spirit and it is of interest that so many NDE's speak of going first to that godless place then being lifted out of it into his glorious light ...

you see i allow for what i cannot possible know , but your anger is aroused because you make the error of thinking you "absolutely know" and do not like it being challenged .
and yet the principle through out the entire Bible remains the same and is therefore Valid ...

what is impossible for man - is possible for God .

 

[Alithis]

There are different accounts because it depends on Yahweh's purpose - for those that are real.

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." II Cor 5:8 He is talking to believers here.

But we've no idea when this "...absent from the body..." actually occurs because death is when both the spirit and soul leaves the body permanently - James 2:26 "For as the body without the spirit is dead,..." and 1 Kings 17:21-22 "And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again."22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived."

Since the to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Scripture is true for believers and when we consider that there were resurrections in The Bible, some near death experiences have to be real.

For possible explanations of the "the gulf" based on Scripture, read post #17.

- as above ? ..

it is also of interst that the place which he is speaking of is not in the physical realm ..it is a spiritual place .. so the gulf may be a matter of Gods will , he wills that none can cross so they "of themselves "cannot cross .. just the same as we cannot save ourselves .. same principle .
however oif God wills that ,,for his own good reason someone is to be taken any place any where and shown a certain thing it is a small matter for him to do so .

after all - did not even the limited advesary take the lord Jesus and show him all the kingdoms of the world ..."

5And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time."

so it is a simple thing for me to accept that GOD can take any one any where and show them anything he jolly well pleases ..

 

[tturt]

michaelmynameis, that's what I've tried to post twice - GOD can take any one any where and show them anything he jolly well pleases.

The gulf between heaven and hell - no one knows when someone crosses it permanently because of the resurrections recorded in Scripture.

 

[dayhiker]

Seems to me that NDEs are before one gets placed one side of the gulf or the other.