WHY SOLA SCRIPTURA MAKES SENSE - A REBUTTAL

[JAL]

It teaches that Holy Scripture IS divine revelation.

So all we get is the book, huh? You don't think that's a bit of an odd conclusion? For two reasons:

(1) Paul typically used the term revelation for his own face-to-face interactions with Christ. That's how he came to know Christ intimately. If Christ doesn't personally manifest Himself to you, all you have is a book - no personal relationship - this is precisely what Paul had before he got saved. Direct Revelation, then, means coming to know Christ, or knowing Him better than you did before. Hence:

"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better" (Eph 1:18).

(2) Isn't it odd that the same Reformers who postulated the Inward Witness taught Sola Scriptura? How can these two claims possibly be compatible:
(A) God doesn't speak to us anymore. All we get is a 2,000 year old book.
(B) Every day the Holy Spirit speaks to me, reassuring me that Scripture is inspired.

You don't find this stance to be rather odd?

 

[Albion]

We are discussing whether the scripture has a higher authority.

Firest, let's be sure we agree on what the issue is. My comment referred to your statement here:

"Those who read the Bible need the Spirit, so it is not the Bible alone."

The "alone" part means the Bible alone, without manmade additions or supplements such as Tradition, the alternate view held by the Roman Catholic and East4ern Orthodox churches.

Many people dispute Sola Scriptura, saying that "it is not alone!" because there are these other things they think are needed as guides to doctrine, in addition to the word of God.

Let's say a revelation from the Spirit helps us to change our understanding of the scripture. Does this place the revelation above the scripture?

"change our understanding?" If the HS enables us to understand Scripture, then it still is Scripture which is our ultimate authority when it comes to necessary doctrine.

I would argue it does. In fact, I argue the Spirit is FAR superior to His history book.

That's all you think divine revelation amounts to--God's "history book??" What church out of all the Christian churches that exist teaches such a notion as that one? I'm just curious if there is one.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Based on feeling? Suppose I claimed that God were evil. You'd rebut that, based on Scripture, right? And I'd agree with you. Because YOU said that if a belief is known to contradict Scripture, we should reject it. No complaint there. And you'd be right - and that's precisely why you should accept the maxim. Let me explain:

(1) If I say God is evil, you'd rightly reject my claim, based on Scripture.
(2) Likewise if I hold to a doctrine IMPLYING that God is evil, you'd rightly reject my claim, based on Scripture.

You claim:
(3) The maxim is false.

You just implied that God is evil! You therefore contradicted Scripture!

Why so? Because, for the millionth time, the maxim defines justice. If God punishes the innocent, He is evil. Suppose you tell your kid "Clean your room every day of the week." You mean 7 days but he sincerely believed that you meant "each weekday" and thus five days. He's acting with a clear conscience (which is what my maxim entails). He is therefore INNOCENT. Are you going to beat him with many stripes? That would make you evil! Anyone who dishonors the maxim is evil!

You also ignore the Scriptures that I cited in defense of the maxim (Romans 14 and 1Cor 8:1-13).

Not really dear friend. Are you actually reading any of the posts you are quoting from? My guess by your responses is no. I posted the scriptures earlier showing what God's Word says is His Maxim God's Word defines the standard of all righteousness; GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS which are God's 10 commandments which give us the knowledge of Good and evil *PSALMS 119:172; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11 and 1 JOHN 3:4. These are God's MAXIMS to know what GOOD and EVIL are.

Your ignoring God's maxim and standard of good and evil and surplanting it for your own. This is where your error lies. Especially when the Word of God says that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desparately wicked so much so that we cannot know them. You provide a maxim that is based on your thoughts and feelings that God says we should never trust *JEREMIAH 17:9-10.

This is proof that your maxims are not God's and but simply your own based on a deceitful heart therefore is not a true maxim because you have no standard of what is right and what is wrong and you reject God's definition of such written through His Word and with his own finger.God's LAW (10 Commandments). God's maxim (10 commandments) gives us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. With out God's 10 commandments we have no knowledge of what GOOD and EVIL is as they define these maxims *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. Your maxims on the other hand is based on a wicked and decietful heart that has no standard of right and wrong.

BOOM did you hear that dear friend? That was your house of MAXIMS. It just came crashing down! Can you see your error in thinking here? This is only sent in love as a help to you. My prayer is that you might receive it in the Spirit that it was given.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Many people dispute Sola Scriptura, saying that "it is not alone!" because there are these other things they think are needed as guides to doctrine, in addition to the word of God.

I have much less problem with the original Sola Scriptura set out by the reformers to highlight what is important and remove traditions from such a high place of authority. But today I hear things like this, "All truth necessary for life and godliness, to borrow Peter’s phrase, is contained in Scripture" (John McArthur). Do you think "All truth necessary for life" is in the bible? I think the bible itself would argue this is false. For example where John says Jesus did much more than what is captured in the bible. I understand the intent, to promote the bible as an important authority on many matters. But it is not the final authority, the Spirit is. I might even go so far as to say together they are the most authoritative message we can receive. There is a subtle difference here that has caused you to think I don't understand what this is all about. But I do see there is a difference between Sola Scriptura and what should be taught. We can find what is meant to be taught in the bible which, as I've said, is incredibly ironic.

"change our understanding?" If the HS enables us to understand Scripture, then it still is Scripture which is our ultimate authority when it comes to necessary doctrine.

Well not really. If I am reading the scripture and interpreting it incorrectly, but still using it as the ultimate authority then this is a big problem. Better is to hold the Spirit as the ultimate authority and pray and listen while we interpret scripture. Again, the difference is subtle, but this difference should help to dismantle the religious spirits that so often jump on the backs Bible worshiping Christians.

 

[Lost4words]

Where was Sola Scriptura before we had the Bible? Also, when most people were illiterate? Where most people had to be taught the word of God from a man of God?

 

[Albion]

I have much less problem with the original Sola Scriptura set out by the reformers to highlight what is important and remove traditions from such a high place of authority. But today I hear things like this, "All truth necessary for life and godliness, to borrow Peter’s phrase, is contained in Scripture" (John McArthur). Do you think "All truth necessary for life" is in the bible?

No, but when I have tried to explain what Sola Scriptura means (given that there are so many threads here on CF that seek to "prove" it's all bunk or contradictory, or something in that vein)...that's what I've tried to do. Not something else.

It's not relevant what John McArthur gets wrong about it any more than what someone here on our discussion board gets wrong about it.

I think the bible itself would argue this is false. For example where John says Jesus did much more than what is captured in the bible. I understand the intent, to promote the bible as an important authority on many matters. But it is not the final authority, the Spirit is.

Yes, and the Spirit operates through the Scriptures! Otherwise, God would not have given mankind the Scriptures as his guide. They are given to all mankind, to the church has a whole in particular. No dream, sudden brainstorm or the like which people imagine is God speaking to them individually (and usually on non-doctrinal matters) can do what Scripture does.

 

[Albion]

Where was Sola Scriptura before we had the Bible?

Two-thirds of the Bible was already known and acknowledged by the time the Savior came. He referred to it himself...often. He commended it to his followers and hostile questioners alike.

And as for the New Testament books, they were all accepted by the churches of the Christian world long before a couple of church councils put their stamp of approval on them in the fourth century and gathered them together into what we call "The Bible."

So that answers your question to some extent. Scripture was there, was in use, long before any church council said "Here's your Bible."

But what about the Sola part of Sola Scriptura?

Even the Nicene Creed, the most widely accepted statement of faith in the history of Christianity, credits its contents (of some of them) to the Scriptures. There is no similar acknowledgment of anything else, not so-called Sacred Tradition, the opinion of some church father, or anything else. But if we are to speak of the early church fathers...they did indeed credit the Scriptures for their beliefs while--guess what?--there is no similar crediting of Tradition.

Also, when most people were illiterate? Where most people had to be taught the word of God from a man of God?

You've answered your own question. The Bible is the repository of God's instructions. How it is delivered to mankind is something else. If the Bible is not the word of God, it wouldn't become sacred and reliable no matter who taught it to other people, right? So the fact that most people were illiterate at one time doesn't either make Scripture authoritative or, on the other hand, inoperable.

And then, if we look at what some churches put up as an alternative to Scripture--Holy Tradition, for example, your own church's alternative--what do we find?

You would have no idea what goes under the heading of Holy Tradition unless someone explained the Papal bulls, ex cathedra pronouncements, and recorded statements of early church bishops and theologians!

NOT UNLESS SOMEONE EXPLAINED THAT TO YOU IN SIMILAR FASHION. In other words, the same process as you are finding fault with...if it's the Bible that's being explained to the people!

 

[JAL]

Not really dear friend. Are you actually reading any of the posts you are quoting from? My guess by your responses is no. I posted the scriptures earlier showing what God's Word says is His Maxim God's Word defines the standard of all righteousness; GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS which are God's 10 commandments which give us the knowledge of Good and evil *PSALMS 119:172; ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11 and 1 JOHN 3:4. These are God's MAXIMS to know what GOOD and EVIL are.

Your ignoring God's maxim and standard of good and evil and surplanting it for your own. This is where your error lies. Especially when the Word of God says that our hearts are deceitful above all things and desparately wicked so much so that we cannot know them. You provide a maxim that is based on your thoughts and feelings that God says we should never trust *JEREMIAH 17:9-10.

This is proof that your maxims are not God's and but simply your own based on a deceitful heart therefore is not a true maxim because you have no standard of what is right and what is wrong and you reject God's definition of such written through His Word and with his own finger.God's LAW (10 Commandments). God's maxim (10 commandments) gives us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS. With out God's 10 commandments we have no knowledge of what GOOD and EVIL is as they define these maxims *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. Your maxims on the other hand is based on a wicked and decietful heart that has no standard of right and wrong.

BOOM did you hear that dear friend? That was your house of MAXIMS. It just came crashing down! Can you see your error in thinking here? This is only sent in love as a help to you. My prayer is that you might receive it in the Spirit that it was given.

May you receive Gods Word and be blessed.

In my understanding God is just. Yet you repeatedly shove your unjust-interpretations of Scripture down my throat. That's not a rebuttal at all.

Your replies don't meet the force of the objections raised.

 

[JAL]

That's all you think divine revelation amounts to--God's "history book??" What church out of all the Christian churches that exist teaches such a notion as that one? I'm just curious if there is one.

You refer to the history book as "divine revelation" - somewhat understandably - but in reality there is a huge difference between merely reading this:
"His face was like the sun in all its brilliance"
versus experiencing it. That history book isn't a revelation to Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, the Jews - they read it and remain unenlightened and unsaved. Consider that a math-101 book written by you is ultimately the same thing as a math-101 book written by God - would you characterize such a math book as "Divine Revelation" just because God wrote it? It's exactly the same content!

The Bible does give us some useful instructions and information. But in terms of spiritual potency - it has none. It's essentially just a math book, history book, or instruction manual! See post 492 on another thread, and post 499, for what Paul has to say about the spiritual potency of written Scripture.

 

[JAL]

Yes, and the Spirit operates through the Scriptures! Otherwise, God would not have given mankind the Scriptures as his guide. They are given to all mankind, to the church has a whole in particular. No dream, sudden brainstorm or the like which people imagine is God speaking to them individually (and usually on non-doctrinal matters) can do what Scripture does.

Non-responsive. Non-statement. To claim that the "Spirit operates through the Scriptures" conveys absolutely nothing (I don't care how good it "sounds" on the surface). That kind of unclear, nebulous language might suffice for a Sunday sermon, but it doesn't wash here. If you have a specific point to make, then make it. Don't just toss around a bunch of popular cliches collectively known as Christianese.

 

[JIMINZ]

Actually that is not true. Sola scriptura is in reference to the Word of God being the final test of all truth. It does not teach or does it say anywhere that there is no divine revelation. Divine revelation is biblical (prophets) but must be tested against the scriptures. Of course Gods Spirit is needed to guide and teach us His Word no one has said any differntly have they? Yet this as well is dealt with in details through the scriptures alone. Sola scriptura to me simply means that the scripture alone are the final authority of God's truth and that is where we find our salvation. Hope this may clarify any misunderstandings.

It very simple.

Those who oppose Sola Scriptura do not understand the first thing about what it is, what it does, how it works.

Those who oppose Sola Scriptura , do not want those who don't to show them their error from Scripture.

They believe they can believe anything they wish, as long as they believe it, no need for the Scripture to be the Rule / Standard for the defining of all truth.

There are also those who believe in and use the writings of the Church Fathers of their Denomination before they do the Bible, if the Bible contradicts what the Church Fathers have said then the Bible is wrong.

 

[tampasteve]

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