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Why Sola Scriptura isn't God's plan

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Ortho_Cat

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When it comes to doctrine and practice, the church should examine history to see how it has responded in the past to said doctrine or practice, or at least something similar. However, Scripture will always trump tradition if tradition is found to be in conflict with Scripture or if it requires extra-biblical practices (like anathema for NOT venerating icons as in the 7th council) as binding one's conscience in a matter where Scripture is silent or ambiguous.

And what if the protestant examines history and finds that their belief/practice was either condemned as a heresy, or otherwise entirely absent in the early church? Do they still go ahead with their practices/beliefs if their conviction is that their doctrine is 'biblical'? In my experience, the extent of protestant inquiries into history (before the reformation) seems to be a very selective process (much like a buffet line), picking out quotes from the fathers that appear to support what they believe (e.g. quotes that emphasize the importance of scripture), while ignoring the quotes from the same fathers which blatantly disagree or condemn their doctrines (the father's emphasis on the real presence of the eucharist comes to mind).
 
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Rick Otto

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Interesting that this process of inquiry which you describe led me straight to the ancient church.
Why not? It isn't Sola Scriptura that produces popes & Jim Joneses any more than science produced Isaac Newton or Alfred Einstein.
Interesting why it didn't lead you there.:)
Good nutrition?:cool:
 
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simonthezealot

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Why not? It isn't Sola Scriptura that produces popes & Jim Joneses
Exactly it's a lack of humility and a dose of self/human exaltation.

These are/were a couple of line leaders playing an eternal game of follow the leader, but don't read the rule book...Instead trust me i know the rules.
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=ortho_cat;And what if the protestant examines history and finds that their belief/practice was either condemned as a heresy, or otherwise entirely absent in the early church?
That is the description of the orthodoxies I found upon examination of history. Pelagius was condemned early on, & then enshrined in Trent's canons. Real presence & transubstantiation, prayer to saints, etc. there's a long list of orthodox deviations.
Do they still go ahead with their practices/beliefs if their conviction is that their doctrine is 'biblical'?
Isn't that the conviction that steers you?

In my experience, the extent of protestant inquiries into history (before the reformation) seems to be a very selective process (much like a buffet line), picking out quotes from the fathers that appear to support what they believe (e.g. quotes that emphasize the importance of scripture), while ignoring the quotes from the same fathers which blatantly disagree or condemn their doctrines (the father's emphasis on the real presence of the eucharist comes to mind).
We might both need to get out more then, because I get that all the time from my orthodox catholic brothers & sisters.^_^
 
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StThomasMore

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Dr. More, please don't put heresy in the mouths of Baptists. You know, even Wikidpedia is better than you running off the top of your head. For your information, Baptists subscribe to the Apostles Creed. Its Catholics who deny the Universal Church by claiming to be it. Roman Catholic is an oxymoron after all.


Most baptists do not really subscribe to the apostles or Nicene creed. In fact never have I even once heard a baptist community recite it and I've been to many baptist groups and heard many pastors from them.

Why do you think so many baptists call themselves "independent" baptists. They think being cut off and independent from the general body of Christians is more a good thing. Especially since it goes against many of their ideals such as the problem in the Creed concerning "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins"(baptists believe in 'believers baptism') and of course the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church". Baptists aren't apostolic nor catholic. Many are divided on doctrinal and even national(southern baptist) levels.
 
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Rick Otto

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Just because I had my information wrong about Jim Jones doesn't make the point of the argument any less valid.
If you argument is that the tool (SS, math, etc.) is useless because people like popes & Jim Jones get it wrong even to the point somebody dies...
that would be incorrect, sir.
:cool:
 
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StThomasMore

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That is the description of the orthodoxies I found upon examination of history. Pelagius was condemned early on, & then enshrined in Trent's canons. Real presence & transubstantiation, prayer to saints, etc. there's a long list of orthodox deviations.

.^_^


You really must be short on church history and patristics if you believe trent "enshrined Pelagius" or that the real presence was first taught then. Or that praying the saints was created(gee, what was iconoclasm all about then hundreds of years earlier)
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=StThomasMore;You really must be short on church history and patristics if you believe trent "enshrined Pelagius"
Short on whatever keeps you from seeing free will enshrined in "co-operative grace".
or that the real presence was first taught then.
...neither taught or believed, originaly.
Or that praying the saints was created(gee, what was iconoclasm all about then hundreds of years earlier)
It ain't taught, exampled, or illustrated, in scripture. Not once.
-hope that helps.
 
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Ortho_Cat

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mark46

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Fundamentalists and literalists believe that all of scripture is literal except for the 6th Chapter of John. which is figurative and not to be included in public readings.


Interesting...

Scripture Catholic - THE EUCHARIST

I can give you a slew of references from the early church fathers from the 2nd-3rd century as well which attest to the real presence...
 
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StThomasMore

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Short on whatever keeps you from seeing free will enshrined in "co-operative grace".
...neither taught or believed, originaly.
It ain't taught, exampled, or illustrated, in scripture. Not once.
-hope that helps.

Neither taught or believed?

"the cup of blessing and the bread of which we partake, is it not an actual participation in Christ's body and blood?" - 1 Cor. 10:16

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." - Matthew 26:26



the Greek word "koinonia" describes an actual, not symbolic participation in the body and blood.

And you have others like 1 Cor. 11:27-29


"They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to Smyrnaeans, 7,1 (c. A.D. 110).


"For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh." Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66 (c. A.D. 110-165).


"[T]he bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood..." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, IV:18,4 (c. A.D. 200).


"He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:2,2 (c. A.D. 200).



I just have to laugh at the Council of Trent enshrining Pelagius. Have you read the whole thing? I can count on fingers and toes probably how many times the man has been anathematized.


Fundamentalists and literalists believe that all of scripture is literal except for the 6th Chapter of John. which is figurative and not to be included in public readings.

quite a convenient view, huh
 
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file13

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Citation please?
Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to the image breakers.
Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.
Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.
Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.
Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.
Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.
Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord hath delivered us from idols.

The Seven Ecumenical Councils , Extracts from the Acts. Session I.

Of course, this probably would no longer apply to the RCC since you've codified your canon law. But the fact remains that according to the council, you are anathema for NOT venerating icons. The EO will celebrate this council, this coming Sunday. Pucker up! :kiss:
 
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simonthezealot

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You really must be short on church history and patristics if you believe trent "enshrined Pelagius"
Your kidding, right? it clarified all things synergistic.
Sure you can say Trent anathematized anyone who would hold to full Pelagianism and deny the necessity of grace. But that comes only by using Romes false definition of what is grace, and her lack of understanding of the sufficiency of God's grace to PERFECTLY save a people through Christ.
The very attempt to deny a Pelagianistic synergism on the part of roman catholics is simply irrational....You proclaim God's grace and then limit and deny it's sufficiency...You claim your works are prompted by grace, in doing so you are missing/losing the freedom of God in salvation and forwarding mans freedom as the determining point of salvation (ie. the successfulness of grace)
When you take Rome's doctrine of the man's will and its sacraments serious, you are denying God's freedom to have efficient grace to accomplish His own purposes.
 
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sunlover1

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Fundamentalists and literalists believe that all of scripture is literal except for the 6th Chapter of John. which is figurative and not to be included in public readings.

Not sure why you'd say such a thing.

I am a fundy and I don't believe that all of Scripture is literal except John 6.
And none of the fundies I know of believe that either.
 
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StThomasMore

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Your kidding, right? it clarified all things synergistic.
Sure you can say Trent anathematized anyone who would hold to full Pelagianism and deny the necessity of grace. But that comes only by using Romes false definition of what is grace, and her lack of understanding of the sufficiency of God's grace to PERFECTLY save a people through Christ.
The very attempt to deny a Pelagianistic synergism on the part of roman catholics is simply irrational....You proclaim God's grace and then limit and deny it's sufficiency...You claim your works are prompted by grace, in doing so you are missing/losing the freedom of God in salvation and forwarding mans freedom as the determining point of salvation (ie. the successfulness of grace)
When you take Rome's doctrine of the man's will and its sacraments serious, you are denying God's freedom to have efficient grace to accomplish His own purposes.


all grace is efficacious in itself. Whether it is efficient on us depends on our disposition towards it. Its not the grace itself that is "defunct" it is our disposition and sin that pushes it away from us. But sin doesn't take away the preservation of the freedom of the will acted upon and working with grace, especially efficacious grace

For if grace, instead of elevating and ennobling free-will, subverts it, then all the Biblical counsels and prohibitions relative to the affairs of salvation, goodness, and morality which can be accomplished only with the help of efficacious grace, become vain and meaningless. Only in the event of the will remaining free have the words of Christ any significance: "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments". The Council of Trent simply affirmed this as the bible would not have put such large emphasis on the keeping of commandments or working out salvation with things like fear and trembling, following moral precepts, avoiding fornication, etc. None of these would have any meaning if there were not free will.



Grace is always the first cause. But God respecting the nature of things and its order , moves necessary agents to necessary, and free agents to free. Grace depends on the fact that it is given under circumstances that God foresees to be congruous with the dispositions of the person receiving the grace. For it is not the will which by its free consent determines the power of grace, but conversely it is grace which makes the free good act possible, prepares for it and co-operates in its execution. The infallibility of the success, which is contained in the very idea of efficacious grace, is not to be explained by the intrinsic nature of this grace, nor by a supernatural but rather by the virtue of which God foreknows from all eternity whether this particular will would freely co-operate with a certain grace or not

I myself think the Molinist approach is the most logical. Congruism also. Whereas the Thomist and Scotist approach seem too rigid and at times almost calvinistic. All schools cannot clearly explain the operation of God's grace however. So go to far to the left(pelaganism) while others too far right(hyper-calvinism). But it only goes to show how limited human beings are in trying to understand something as complicated as the operation of grace. Scholastics can only go so far in this area.
 
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simonthezealot

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I myself think the Molinist approach is the most logical.
I unlike you then, believe God can and does decide what man would do in any given situation, and He can simply decide whether or not to let the situation arise. Think Joseph being sold into slavery...

You inadvertently give man credit due God, and at the same time make God to be one to simply do the best with what He is given.
Give God His glory, friend.
 
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