• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

Why Socialism Always Fails

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!



2. The strength of capitalism can be attributed to an incentive structure based upon the three Ps: (1) prices determined by market forces, (2) a profit-and-loss system of accounting and (3) private property rights. The failure of socialism can be traced to its neglect of these three incentive-enhancing components.



3. By their failure to foster, promote, and nurture the potential of their people through incentive-enhancing institutions, centrally planned economies deprive the human spirit of full development. Socialism fails because it kills and destroys the human spirit–just ask the people leaving Cuba in homemade rafts and boats [and those waiting in long lines today in Venezuela struggling, and often failing, to buy food].



4. The temptress of socialism is constantly luring us with the offer: “give up a little of your freedom and I will give you a little more security.” As the experience of this century has demonstrated, the bargain is tempting but never pays off. We end up losing both our freedom and our security.

Socialism will remain a constant temptation. We must be vigilant in our fight against socialism not only around the globe but also here in the United States.

The failure of socialism inspired a worldwide renaissance of freedom and liberty. For the first time in the history of the world, the day is coming very soon when a majority of the people in the world will live in free societies or societies rapidly moving toward freedom.

Capitalism will play a major role in the global revival of liberty and prosperity because it nurtures the human spirit, inspires human creativity, and promotes the spirit of enterprise. By providing a powerful system of incentives that promote thrift, hard work, and efficiency, capitalism creates wealth.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works.
https://www.aei.org/publication/why-socialism-always-fails/
 

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
This is nice, civics 101 stuff. It's a good thing pretty much every mainstream politician in the USA (up to and including the one which erroneously calls himself a "socialist") agrees with you. :)


Other than most democrats, who are socialists in the variety known euphemistically in Europe as "Democratic Socialism".
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Other than most democrats, who are socialists in the variety known euphemistically in Europe as "Democratic Socialism".
"Democratic socialism" incorporates virtually every part of capitalism. You have a free market. You have property rights. You have a profit-and-loss system of accounting. You have the ability to become rich beyond the dreams of avarice - just ask Georg Schäffler and Stefan Persson - so there's clearly an incentive to better yourself at virtually every level. In fact, in Germany, it's pretty much impossible to be worse-off working than not working, and I'd say Germany is very much a "democratic socialist" country.

Your civics lesson has completely derailed; you've confused two very different things. Pure socialism does not work large-scale for the reasons you mentioned above. But democratic socialism is not pure socialism. In fact, it's quite a bit closer to capitalism than to socialism, it simply incorporates certain socialistic ideas to help ensure that the inequality that always follows capitalism doesn't leave people to fall through the cracks. And honestly? By all reasonable standards, it works like gangbusters.
 
Upvote 0

Thursday

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
6,034
1,562
60
Texas
✟56,929.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"Democratic socialism" incorporates virtually every part of capitalism. You have a free market. You have property rights. You have a profit-and-loss system of accounting. You have the ability to become rich beyond the dreams of avarice - just ask Georg Schäffler and Stefan Persson - so there's clearly an incentive to better yourself at virtually every level. In fact, in Germany, it's pretty much impossible to be worse-off working than not working, and I'd say Germany is very much a "democratic socialist" country.

Your civics lesson has completely derailed; you've confused two very different things. Pure socialism does not work large-scale for the reasons you mentioned above. But democratic socialism is not pure socialism. In fact, it's quite a bit closer to capitalism than to socialism, it simply incorporates certain socialistic ideas to help ensure that the inequality that always follows capitalism doesn't leave people to fall through the cracks. And honestly? By all reasonable standards, it works like gangbusters.


Government now consumes about 26% of gdp and it is rising each year.

Most economists say that we maximize gdp growth at around 10-12% of gdp. We maximize federal revenues at around 19% of gdp. We should try to stay between those two extremes. Once government growth starts snowballing it is hard to stop.

What percent do you think we should be shooting for?
 
Upvote 0

The Cadet

SO COOL
Apr 29, 2010
6,290
4,743
Munich
✟53,117.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Government now consumes about 26% of gdp and it is rising each year.

Most economists say that we maximize gdp growth at around 10-12% of gdp. We maximize federal revenues at around 19% of gdp. We should try to stay between those two extremes. Once government growth starts snowballing it is hard to stop.

What percent do you think we should be shooting for?
I'm not sure where you get that most economists say that we maximize gdp growth around 10-12% of gdp, and I do try to keep up to economics. Googling "government size gdp growth", I ran into a handful of white papers that use different models and come to the conclusion that significantly increasing the size of government can lead to a decrease in GDP growth (although at least one cautioned that we should not consider this evidence of causation), but I couldn't find much evidence of your claim. I did find the article talking about federal revenues being stuck around 19%, although I question whether this is a hard-and-fast line, or if it isn't a result of the increasing inequality of the USA coupled with the increased reduction of marginal tax rates.

But this is a very different question. Just because a government is large and unwieldy does not make it socialist. The government making up 26% of GDP does not somehow eliminate the free market, the incentives to work hard, or private property.

(FTR, my answer: I don't know. I tend to look at it less in terms of "what do we have" and more in terms of "what works". If we can do what we need the government to do with 5%, then let's do that. If we can't do what we want with 30%, then we should look at why that is and consider increasing it further or revising what we want.)
 
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!



2. The strength of capitalism can be attributed to an incentive structure based upon the three Ps: (1) prices determined by market forces, (2) a profit-and-loss system of accounting and (3) private property rights. The failure of socialism can be traced to its neglect of these three incentive-enhancing components.



3. By their failure to foster, promote, and nurture the potential of their people through incentive-enhancing institutions, centrally planned economies deprive the human spirit of full development. Socialism fails because it kills and destroys the human spirit–just ask the people leaving Cuba in homemade rafts and boats [and those waiting in long lines today in Venezuela struggling, and often failing, to buy food].



4. The temptress of socialism is constantly luring us with the offer: “give up a little of your freedom and I will give you a little more security.” As the experience of this century has demonstrated, the bargain is tempting but never pays off. We end up losing both our freedom and our security.

Socialism will remain a constant temptation. We must be vigilant in our fight against socialism not only around the globe but also here in the United States.

The failure of socialism inspired a worldwide renaissance of freedom and liberty. For the first time in the history of the world, the day is coming very soon when a majority of the people in the world will live in free societies or societies rapidly moving toward freedom.

Capitalism will play a major role in the global revival of liberty and prosperity because it nurtures the human spirit, inspires human creativity, and promotes the spirit of enterprise. By providing a powerful system of incentives that promote thrift, hard work, and efficiency, capitalism creates wealth.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works.
https://www.aei.org/publication/why-socialism-always-fails/

I agree completely, that's why the U.S. should be dissolved and we start over.
 
Upvote 0

Cearbhall

Well-Known Member
May 10, 2013
15,118
5,744
United States
✟129,824.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Single
1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.
Where? The only countries I see mentioned in your post are Cuba and the U.S. Cuba's problems are because of its communism, and the U.S. has never been socialist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cow451
Upvote 0

Ana the Ist

Aggressively serene!
Feb 21, 2012
39,990
12,573
✟487,130.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!



2. The strength of capitalism can be attributed to an incentive structure based upon the three Ps: (1) prices determined by market forces, (2) a profit-and-loss system of accounting and (3) private property rights. The failure of socialism can be traced to its neglect of these three incentive-enhancing components.



3. By their failure to foster, promote, and nurture the potential of their people through incentive-enhancing institutions, centrally planned economies deprive the human spirit of full development. Socialism fails because it kills and destroys the human spirit–just ask the people leaving Cuba in homemade rafts and boats [and those waiting in long lines today in Venezuela struggling, and often failing, to buy food].



4. The temptress of socialism is constantly luring us with the offer: “give up a little of your freedom and I will give you a little more security.” As the experience of this century has demonstrated, the bargain is tempting but never pays off. We end up losing both our freedom and our security.

Socialism will remain a constant temptation. We must be vigilant in our fight against socialism not only around the globe but also here in the United States.

The failure of socialism inspired a worldwide renaissance of freedom and liberty. For the first time in the history of the world, the day is coming very soon when a majority of the people in the world will live in free societies or societies rapidly moving toward freedom.

Capitalism will play a major role in the global revival of liberty and prosperity because it nurtures the human spirit, inspires human creativity, and promotes the spirit of enterprise. By providing a powerful system of incentives that promote thrift, hard work, and efficiency, capitalism creates wealth.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works.
https://www.aei.org/publication/why-socialism-always-fails/

I agree completely, that's why the U.S. should be dissolved and we start over.
 
Upvote 0

ThatRobGuy

Part of the IT crowd
Site Supporter
Sep 4, 2005
27,329
16,590
Here
✟1,416,023.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Any system that is 100% pure and not "cut with" another system is doomed to failure...the same is true of communism and capitalism.

That's why no first world country has a 100% <insert name here> economic system. We're all hybrids between individualism & collectivism...

You have the US which is around an 85/15 split...and then you have the Nordic countries were are closer to around a 70/30 split.

I'm convinced that a person who sincerely wants 100% unrestricted capitalism doesn't know what they're asking for, as they'd be run over (economically speaking) within a matter of days.

Now personally speaking, I think we're in a place where we should be moving more toward free market solutions for things rather than more toward regulatory solutions...however, 100% unrestricted capitalism means that a handful of rich guys get to hold us hostage financially for basic necessities starting tomorrow.
 
Upvote 0

lesliedellow

Member
Sep 20, 2010
9,654
2,582
United Kingdom
Visit site
✟112,077.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
Other than most democrats, who are socialists in the variety known euphemistically in Europe as "Democratic Socialism".

According to the American right, anybody marginally to the left of Genghis Khan is a socialist.
 
Upvote 0

J Cord

Well-Known Member
Aug 1, 2016
2,408
1,295
66
Canada
✟33,280.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Others
1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

Canada is a pretty socialist country, certainly by your standards, and we're doing fine. Longer lifespan, better education, better healthcare, you know, the things that make life better. BTW, these are all verifiable facts.

The USA are great neighbours, and you are a great people, but I am very glad I live in Canada. I would *not* want to live in the USA, because I think you have a poorer standard of living. I don't want my lifespan to be shorter, I don't want to have inferior healthcare, and I certainly don't want my children to receive an inferior education.
 
Upvote 0

aieyiamfu

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2015
2,916
1,200
52
✟35,424.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
1. Socialism is the Big Lie of the twentieth century. While it promised prosperity, equality, and security, it delivered poverty, misery, and tyranny. Equality was achieved only in the sense that everyone was equal in his or her misery.

In the same way that a Ponzi scheme or chain letter initially succeeds but eventually collapses, socialism may show early signs of success. But any accomplishments quickly fade as the fundamental deficiencies of central planning emerge. It is the initial illusion of success that gives government intervention its pernicious, seductive appeal. In the long run, socialism has always proven to be a formula for tyranny and misery.

A pyramid scheme is ultimately unsustainable because it is based on faulty principles. Likewise, collectivism is unsustainable in the long run because it is a flawed theory. Socialism does not work because it is not consistent with fundamental principles of human behavior. The failure of socialism in countries around the world can be traced to one critical defect: it is a system that ignores incentives.

In a capitalist economy, incentives are of the utmost importance. Market prices, the profit-and-loss system of accounting, and private property rights provide an efficient, interrelated system of incentives to guide and direct economic behavior. Capitalism is based on the theory that incentives matter!

Under socialism, incentives either play a minimal role or are ignored totally. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with human nature and is therefore doomed to fail. Socialism is based on the theory that incentives don’t matter!



2. The strength of capitalism can be attributed to an incentive structure based upon the three Ps: (1) prices determined by market forces, (2) a profit-and-loss system of accounting and (3) private property rights. The failure of socialism can be traced to its neglect of these three incentive-enhancing components.



3. By their failure to foster, promote, and nurture the potential of their people through incentive-enhancing institutions, centrally planned economies deprive the human spirit of full development. Socialism fails because it kills and destroys the human spirit–just ask the people leaving Cuba in homemade rafts and boats [and those waiting in long lines today in Venezuela struggling, and often failing, to buy food].



4. The temptress of socialism is constantly luring us with the offer: “give up a little of your freedom and I will give you a little more security.” As the experience of this century has demonstrated, the bargain is tempting but never pays off. We end up losing both our freedom and our security.

Socialism will remain a constant temptation. We must be vigilant in our fight against socialism not only around the globe but also here in the United States.

The failure of socialism inspired a worldwide renaissance of freedom and liberty. For the first time in the history of the world, the day is coming very soon when a majority of the people in the world will live in free societies or societies rapidly moving toward freedom.

Capitalism will play a major role in the global revival of liberty and prosperity because it nurtures the human spirit, inspires human creativity, and promotes the spirit of enterprise. By providing a powerful system of incentives that promote thrift, hard work, and efficiency, capitalism creates wealth.

The main difference between capitalism and socialism is this: Capitalism works.
https://www.aei.org/publication/why-socialism-always-fails/
The reason socialism has never caught on to any large degree in the United States is that every one who is that those who might benefit are just temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KCfromNC
Upvote 0

aieyiamfu

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2015
2,916
1,200
52
✟35,424.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Canada is a pretty socialist country, certainly by your standards, and we're doing fine. Longer lifespan, better education, better healthcare, you know, the things that make life better. BTW, these are all verifiable facts.

The USA are great neighbours, and you are a great people, but I am very glad I live in Canada. I would *not* want to live in the USA, because I think you have a poorer standard of living. I don't want my lifespan to be shorter, I don't want to have inferior healthcare, and I certainly don't want my children to receive an inferior education.
You really love the state it appears, is that truly a result of better education or did that government education brainwash you.
 
Upvote 0

Goonie

Not so Mystic Mog.
Site Supporter
Jun 13, 2015
10,393
9,985
48
UK
✟1,301,749.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
According to the American right, anybody marginally to the left of Genghis Khan is a socialist.
And to some on this forum Ghengis Khan was a left wing commie!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BlueBrown
Upvote 0

aieyiamfu

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2015
2,916
1,200
52
✟35,424.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Any system that is 100% pure and not "cut with" another system is doomed to failure...the same is true of communism and capitalism.

That's why no first world country has a 100% <insert name here> economic system. We're all hybrids between individualism & collectivism...

You have the US which is around an 85/15 split...and then you have the Nordic countries were are closer to around a 70/30 split.

I'm convinced that a person who sincerely wants 100% unrestricted capitalism doesn't know what they're asking for, as they'd be run over (economically speaking) within a matter of days.

Now personally speaking, I think we're in a place where we should be moving more toward free market solutions for things rather than more toward regulatory solutions...however, 100% unrestricted capitalism means that a handful of rich guys get to hold us hostage financially for basic necessities starting tomorrow.
And they aren't already?
 
Upvote 0

aieyiamfu

Well-Known Member
Nov 13, 2015
2,916
1,200
52
✟35,424.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I'm not sure where you get that most economists say that we maximize gdp growth around 10-12% of gdp, and I do try to keep up to economics. Googling "government size gdp growth", I ran into a handful of white papers that use different models and come to the conclusion that significantly increasing the size of government can lead to a decrease in GDP growth (although at least one cautioned that we should not consider this evidence of causation), but I couldn't find much evidence of your claim. I did find the article talking about federal revenues being stuck around 19%, although I question whether this is a hard-and-fast line, or if it isn't a result of the increasing inequality of the USA coupled with the increased reduction of marginal tax rates.

But this is a very different question. Just because a government is large and unwieldy does not make it socialist. The government making up 26% of GDP does not somehow eliminate the free market, the incentives to work hard, or private property.

(FTR, my answer: I don't know. I tend to look at it less in terms of "what do we have" and more in terms of "what works". If we can do what we need the government to do with 5%, then let's do that. If we can't do what we want with 30%, then we should look at why that is and consider increasing it further or revising what we want.)
Where is this free market, I would like to see it in operation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tatteredsoul
Upvote 0