Why Should Women not be Permitted to go Topless in Public?

Archivist · Apr 15, 2015

BTW, Have you all seen the Victorian-era bathing suits that men wore. They included a top. Until 1937 men were not permitted to go topless on the beach in Atlantic City, New Jersey because the city didn’t want “gorillas on our beaches.”

GrowingSmaller · Apr 15, 2015

This means phwoar.

seashale76 · Apr 15, 2015

TillICollapse said:
(uh-hum) ... No mention of Mardi Gras in New Orleans yet ?

That's done solely because it is titillating (pun intended). It would be a point against the topless practice in public, actually.

TillICollapse · Apr 15, 2015

seashale76 said:
That's done solely because it is titillating (pun intended).

Excellent

While I agree it's not done for utilitarian purposes, or for relaxation or comfort ... I would probably argue it's not done only for salacious reasons either. Part of it is the idea of cutting lose, stepping outside of societal norms in a "party atmosphere". Not everyone who participates in showing their breasts or pulling their shirt up (or for guys, pulling their pants down) ends up causing accidents, or being assaulted, etc (obviously). To some it's "teasing fun". To some it's pushing the boundaries of their own inhibitions amongst themselves. The novelty and shock of it is diminished. I may argue a more acceptable form of something similar which people participate in publicly but is still "adult" oriented with sexual connotations would be the No Pants Subway Ride.

It would be a point against the topless practice in public, actually.

How so ?

True Scotsman · Apr 15, 2015

Archivist said:
With the arrival of warm weather in the US, we again face the double standard of allowing men, but--in most places--not allowing women to go topless in public. Why not?

Would those who are opposed to women going topless in public please address the following:

1). At no place in Scripture are women forbidden from going topless in public.

2). 1 Timothy 2:9 tells us that women are to dress modestly, however modestly is defined as adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. Going topless is never mentioned. Nudity was actually much more common in Biblical times.

3). Romans 14:13 tells us not to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother, but the allure of female breasts would diminish if women would regularly go topless in places where men commonly go topless. In addition we allow men to go topless in America(something that was illegal less than 100 years ago) with no concern that they might be placing a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of women.

4). Even if Scripture did forbid women from going topless, the US is a secular nation.

5). Men obviously can handle seeing women go topless because women regularly do so in many parts of the world.

6). If we are "created equal," how can we allow men to go without a shirt in public without allowing women to do the same?

The only thing I can see wrong with it is the number of car accidents would explode exponentially. I think after a year or so it would not be a big deal any more once the novelty wore off.

Archivist · Apr 15, 2015

True Scotsman said:
The only thing I can see wrong with it is the number of car accidents would explode exponentially.

To my knowledge the number of car accidents didn't explode in New York state when it became legal for women to go topless there.

Resha Caner · Apr 15, 2015

Why is this question restricted to women and shirts? Shouldn't the question be why we have any taboos at all?

Why wear any clothing? Why are toilets, baths, and bedrooms enclosed? Why are we supposed to close our mouth when chewing food?

Why should I have to hide my cash in my wallet? It's not my responsibility to prevent robbery. People who rob need to learn to control their urges.

SuperCloud · Apr 15, 2015

Resha Caner said:
Why wear any clothing? Why are toilets, baths, and bedrooms enclosed? Why are we supposed to close our mouth when chewing food?

Now that you mention it, humans are the only ones with these practices, or tools actually.

Though some anthropologists disagree most are of the mind that humans are the only species on earth with culture and a significant tool culture. Though chimpanzees seem to have a very limited tool culture with sticks--I think to eat ants with.

So why do human wear clothing in the hot weather months of the City of Miami? Why do humans in Miami not walk around without clothing like their pet canines and squat down in public to defecate right beside their pet canines doing the same thing?

It would be an interesting and different world if all of that was common place.

But I agree with the OP that the issue is cultural. He also correctly points out that the Victorian era bathing suits for men covered more of the male body.

I'm not sure I want to see *physically* mature 14 year-old girls (built like 18 and 20 year-old women) with topless, big, full, perky breasts staring me in the face. I'm human, not angelic. That would cause too much internal confusion in me.

True Scotsman · Apr 15, 2015

Archivist said:
To my knowledge the number of car accidents didn't explode in New York state when it became legal for women to go topless there.

You don't say. New York of all places. I'd have thought it would be California or Oregon. Maybe it is legal there too. I heard that it is legal in Boulder, Colorado but that place is such a freak show that it would not stand out at all.

Darkhorse · Apr 15, 2015

True Scotsman said:
You don't say. New York of all places. I'd have thought it would be California or Oregon. Maybe it is legal there too.

It IS legal in California and Oregon.

Emmyc · Apr 15, 2015

I used to live in California and currently live in Oregon. You can't just be naked on the street for no reason. You can be naked in designated "Clothing optional" locations (certain beaches, the hot springs) and/or to "protest" something (some people make up silly excuses to "protest" to get away with being naked. For example there is a Portland naked bike ride every year and most don't know what they're "protesting" and don't really care.

From what I have been around when you are in a place or event like that it has nothing to do with sensuality or the weather. It's all about freedom, return to nature, and/or rule breaking.

That said, in California it's fairly common to have women walk around with a bikini top which I am not sure weather or modesty or traffic accidents would be much effected by them being ACTUALLY topless.

Alos it is perfectly easy to compare body types, features, hair, legs, breasts, whatever with clothes on. I've been to the hippie hot springs and I don't see any naked women that make me go "Wish I had those boobs". And I don't see any that I wouldn't be able to tell how they compared to me with a bathing suit on (especially the modern bikinis people wear) but now that they are naked I suddenly feel like comparing. That's silly.

As for the wallet: If someone steals your money it IS on them and they ARE guilty. It's certainly not your fault for parading your money around in front of them.

Lastly, Garden of Eden: I think they started to feel ashamed being naked because they were suddenly judging themselves and each other (All of a sudden Eve noticed her boobs were a little saggy, and she felt the need to suck in her tummy). They also felt they couldn't be completely open and vulnerable with one another. They suddenl;y felt they had to hide things.

Dave-W · Apr 16, 2015

True Scotsman said:
I think after a year or so it would not be a big deal any more once the novelty wore off.

But do we really WANT to become that insensitive? Solomon gave us this wise advice:

Proverbs 5:19 As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love. If the "novelty" wears off, we lose the ability to follow this advice.

Resha Caner · Apr 16, 2015

Emmyc said:
As for the wallet: If someone steals your money it IS on them and they ARE guilty. It's certainly not your fault for parading your money around in front of them.

Nor is it my fault if I throw a tangle of electrical cords on top of rags doused in gasoline. It's nature fault for not controlling it's urge to create fire.

How silly do we need to get here? Of course the guilt belongs to the robber. That's not my point. How many times a year do we hear of some college girl disappearing from a bar late at night and ending up dead in the woods? Of course the guilt of the abuse and murder falls on the reprobate who committed the act.

But by that point the crime has been committed and it's too late.

Of course we need to reinforce that such things are bad and get the message out to try to reduce the number of people who commit those crimes (as if we can pretend our society has any moral fabric anymore).

But what about prevention? The attitude given here is that prevention is such an awful inconvenience that we should be allowed to push off all responsibility on the one observing our behavior and bear no responsibility for our own behavior. People speak as if preventitive measures have no value - almost as if it's a moral offense to suggest them. Shouldn't we be informing people about the risks of their behavior? And the measures they can take to reduce that risk? It's called risky for a reason, and maybe I'm too pessimistic but I'm not expecting risky behavior to suddenly become risk free anytime soon.

This is even more interesting given that most insurance companies set rates in part based on the behavior of the one taking the risk. Should we scold them for such a thing?

I also have to wonder if the demand for "freedom" with respect to clothing isn't more just a demand for titillation.

Audacious · Apr 16, 2015

I don't really have a problem with women being topless. I honestly don't see the problem. Arguments against it seem way, way too similar to the arguments for why women have to wear burqas in Saudi Arabia -- because society would collapse from men's distraction and idolatry, we must hide the female boobies!

Women are apparently free from such things as lust, because the hottest man in the world is still able to walk around without a shirt on.

SuperCloud · Apr 16, 2015

Why would people ride bikes naked? Especially men.

Do men rock climb naked too?

Seems a little dangerous.

But I get the freedom part. At least in the sense it would be nice to wake up in a morning of warm or slightly cool weather, and walk out into an open, rural backyard and let the sun and gentle wind touch across your whole body.

Darkhorse · Apr 16, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
But do we really WANT to become that insensitive? Solomon gave us this wise advice:

Proverbs 5:19 As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love.

If the "novelty" wears off, we lose the ability to follow this advice.

Actually, we don't - at least I haven't.

Being accustomed to seeing nude women has de-sexualized nudity to a great extent for me, but I still get aroused by my nude wife when I anticipate having sex with her.

I don't have sex with any of the nude ladies on the beach or at the resort, but I have had sex many times with my wife, and look forward to many more times. This anticipation makes her arousing, while ruling out sex with others minimizes sexual thoughts and feelings towards them.

SilverBlade · Apr 16, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
But do we really WANT to become that insensitive? Solomon gave us this wise advice:

Proverbs 5:19 As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love. If the "novelty" wears off, we lose the ability to follow this advice.

If you look at the European countries which allow women to walk around topless more freely than the US, the rate of sexual crimes (rape) is drastically reduced.

So there is an actual advantage to become desensitized to nudity.

Dave-W · Apr 17, 2015

SilverBlade said:
If you look at the European countries which allow women to walk around topless more freely than the US, the rate of sexual crimes (rape) is drastically reduced.

So there is an actual advantage to become desensitized to nudity.

That assumes rape is about sexual intent. Most studies I have seen say sexual assault is more about power than sex. I would look for other reasons their rate is lower.

only a sojourner · Apr 17, 2015

This thread, on this nominally Christian forum, is an example of just how far the West has fallen away from Biblical standards on morality and from Christianity itself. There will be a remanent of those faithful to the Lord to uphold the doctrines and standards of Christianity amidst the chorus of darkness which engulfs the United States and Western culture. This is a battle between light and darkness. Where do you stand?

wpiman2 · Apr 17, 2015

only a sojourner said:
This thread, on this nominally Christian forum, is an example of just how far the West has fallen away from Biblical standards on morality and from Christianity itself. There will be a remanent of those faithful to the Lord to uphold the doctrines and standards of Christianity amidst the chorus of darkness which engulfs the United States and Western culture. This is a battle between light and darkness. Where do you stand?

Adam and Eve wore fig leafs. I say we go back to that. How much for Biblical can you get?

Why Should Women not be Permitted to go Topless in Public?

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