Why Should Women not be Permitted to go Topless in Public?

Truthfrees · Feb 26, 2016

Considering your questions in light of this forum's sop:

Kristen.NewCreation said:
Ethics & Morality Forum Statement of Purpose

The Ethics and Morality forum is for discussions that address conduct based on ethics (the rules of conduct recognized in respect to a particular class of human actions or a particular group or culture) and morality (the personal compass of what is right and wrong for an individual). Ethics are set because society says it's right while morals are set because the individual believes something is right or wrong. The discussions on ethics and morality may also address character traits.

ToddNotTodd said:
We're talking about secular law. Gods need not be invoked.

Archivist said:
ToddNotTodd is correct, this is a secular matter. However, I don't see anything in any of the Scripture you quoted saying that it is improper for women to go topless in public.

The SOP says ETHICS are the morals a community chooses to live by, and MORALS are the ethics an individual chooses to live by.

The ETHICS allowed in a community will affect the MORALS of the individual, and visa versa.

Therefore to be an individual, and a society that lives right, following God's instructions will bring the best results.

Disregarding God's instructions will create trouble.

If you disagree, I understand.

Each of us can live by our own wisdom and understanding, or we can seek God's wisdom and understanding.

Proverbs 3:5-6 says DON'T lean on your own understanding. Follow God in all your ways.

Isaiah 55:8-9 says Gods ways and ideas are higher than ours.

Proverbs 14:12, and Proverbs 16:25 say that NOT following God's ways leads to trouble.

We no longer live but Christ lives in us, so the life we now live we live for Christ. Galatians 2:20-21

Do all things for the glory of GOD.1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:17

Find out what pleases the Lord. Ephesians 5:10

1 Timothy 2:9 Modest women in Christian communities would dress in appropriately and decently. 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

Genesis 3:7 says Adam and Ever were ashamed of their nakedness and covered themselves. There was no society dictating anything. There was only them and GOD.

So all the scriptures together that I have posted in my 7 posts would say to me that this entire question is best resolved by finding out from God what HE says, because our finite human minds get all kinds of self-serving ideas that lead us into trouble in the end.

Truthfrees said:
1 Timothy 2:9

Modest women in Christian communities don't desire to go topless.

A woman who wants to go topless would not be interested in modesty.

Truthfrees said:
I edited my post after you quoted me.

Christian women are not interested in going topless.

It's a modesty issue.

Adam and Eve covered themselves in the garden of Eden for modesty issues.

Truthfrees said:
It says modest apparel.

Apparel specifically includes clothing according to any dictionary.

Jewelry is considered accessories.

And braided hair is considered adornment.

This scripture includes all aspects of a modest appearance.

Truthfrees said:
Modesty: behavior, manner, or appearance intended to avoid impropriety or indecency.

Modesty covers more than the narrowed meaning you are taking.

Truthfrees said:
Before God or before man?

We no longer live but Christ lives in us, so the life we now live we live for Christ. Galatians 2:20-21

Do all things for the glory of GOD.1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:17

Find out what pleases the Lord. Ephesians 5:10

I guess it depends on who you are living for.

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Tallguy88 said:
A beach is likely to be an appropriate situation, unless it is specifically a family friendly beach.

So men shouldn't go topless on "family friendly" beaches.

Tallguy88 · Feb 26, 2016

Archivist said:
So men shouldn't go topless on "family friendly" beaches.

If it's a private beach, they can set their own dress codes.

squirrel123 · Feb 26, 2016

Truthfrees said:
IMO a swim suit top or halter top would keep you just as cool as your shirtless husband, would it not?

IF I have only one with me, and IF there is a suitable place to change into one, possibly. But sweaty lycra can get really yucky fast and beaches aren't the only place where men get to go shirtless. A loose-fitting cotton tank top is often more comfortable, even if slightly warmer, than a swimsuit top.

Either way, it should be my choice. It's ridiculous that men get to control what I wear (or don't wear).

Tallguy88 · Feb 26, 2016

Here's the standard of dress to enter the Vatican. Note that women are allowed to show more skin than men. A good guideline for people who value modesty to follow. I am often more covered than this requires (due to work requirements and personal preference):

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Tallguy88 said:
If it's a private beach, they can set their own dress codes.

You didn't answer me. You said that it "family friendly" beaches were not appropriate places for women to go topless. Again, are you saying that it is also inappropriate for men to go topless on such beaches?

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Tallguy88 said:
Here's the standard of dress to enter the Vatican. Note that women are allowed to show more skin than men. A good guideline for people who value modesty to follow. I am often more covered than this requires (due to work requirements and personal preference).

And the photo you posted shows that both men and women are required to wear tops. Nothing inconsistant about that. Remember we are talking about prohibiting women from going topless while allowing men to do so. That obviously isn't happening at the Vatican.

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Truthfrees said:
Considering your questions in light of this forum's sop:
The SOP says ETHICS are the morals a community chooses to live by, and MORALS are the ethics an individual chooses to live by. The ETHICS allowed in a community will affect the MORALS of the individual, and visa versa. Therefore to be an individual, and a society that lives right, following God's instructions will bring the best results. Disregarding God's instructions will create trouble. If you disagree, I understand. Each of us can live by our own wisdom and understanding, or we can seek God's wisdom and understanding. Proverbs 3:5-6 says DON'T lean on your own understanding. Follow God in all your ways.
Isaiah 55:8-9 says Gods ways and ideas are higher than ours. Proverbs 14:12, and Proverbs 16:25 say that NOT following God's ways leads to trouble. We no longer live but Christ lives in us, so the life we now live we live for Christ. Galatians 2:20-21 Do all things for the glory of GOD.1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:17 Find out what pleases the Lord. Ephesians 5:10
1 Timothy 2:9 Modest women in Christian communities would dress in appropriately and decently. 9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; Genesis 3:7 says Adam and Ever were ashamed of their nakedness and covered themselves. There was no society dictating anything. There was only them and GOD. So all the scriptures together that I have posted in my 7 posts would say to me that this entire question is best resolved by finding out from God what HE says, because our finite human minds get all kinds of self-serving ideas that lead us into trouble in the end.

And nothing you have posted here says that it is in any way wrong for women to go topless where men can go topless. You ahve discussed ethics and morality, but nothing you have said shows that it is unethical or immoral for women to go topless where men go topless.

If you read the OP (I presume you have not) it states the following:

1). At no place in Scripture are women forbidden from going topless in public.

2). 1 Timothy 2:9 tells us that women are to dress modestly, however modestly is defined as adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. Going topless is never mentioned. Nudity was actually much more common in Biblical times.

3). Romans 14:13 tells us not to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother, but the allure of female breasts would diminish if women would regularly go topless in places where men commonly go topless. In addition we allow men to go topless in America(something that was illegal less than 100 years ago) with no concern that they might be placing a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of women.

4). Even if Scripture did forbid women from going topless, the US is a secular nation.

5). Men obviously can handle seeing women go topless because women regularly do so in many parts of the world.

6). If we are "created equal," how can we allow men to go without a shirt in public without allowing women to do the same?

Truthfrees · Feb 26, 2016

Archivist said:
And nothing you have posted here says that it is in any way wrong for women to go topless where men can go topless. You ahve discussed ethics and morality, but nothing you have said shows that it is unethical or immoral for women to go topless where men go topless.

If you read the OP (I presume you have not) it states the following:

1). At no place in Scripture are women forbidden from going topless in public.

2). 1 Timothy 2:9 tells us that women are to dress modestly, however modestly is defined as adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. Going topless is never mentioned. Nudity was actually much more common in Biblical times.

3). Romans 14:13 tells us not to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother, but the allure of female breasts would diminish if women would regularly go topless in places where men commonly go topless. In addition we allow men to go topless in America(something that was illegal less than 100 years ago) with no concern that they might be placing a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of women.

4). Even if Scripture did forbid women from going topless, the US is a secular nation.

5). Men obviously can handle seeing women go topless because women regularly do so in many parts of the world.

6). If we are "created equal," how can we allow men to go without a shirt in public without allowing women to do the same?

I understand and I did read your OP.

IMO, trying to divorce GOD from your life choices and live an entirely secular life is for sure a personal choice, but I'm giving scriptural proof that you're asking for trouble if you live that way, lead your family in that way, and promote that lifestyle in society.

So is TOPLESS mentioned in Scripture?

No, not that word, but nakedness is.

Topless women for sure is included in all the "nakedness", 'modest", and "live a pleasing life" type scriptures in the Bible.

You're using semantics to interpret the Bible in a way that I disagree with.

I'm interpreting the Bible in a way that matches the HOLY character of GOD.

Joshua said choose who you will follow, but as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. Joshua 24:15

I have more scripture in the same vein as those I already posted, but you and I interpret scripture almost in dichotomy.

So now what?

I do not accept your interpretation and you do not accept my interpretation.

God is the one we all answer to.

Whatever you decide is between you and God. And God loves you so much that He gave His only begotten Son for you. John 3:16

But my opinion is equally valid, even though it differs from yours.

So I respect your personal free will decision to exclude God and His holiness instructions from your lifestyle due to the fact that you can't find "topless women" mentioned in the Bible.

But I see holiness, goodness, modesty, purity, etc all through the Bible, and I will continue to base my ETHICS and MORALITY on scripture/God's society/kingdom, not on secular society. I'm in God's society/kingdom. I'm in the world but not of the world. 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 1:13, John 17:15

I don't in any way condemn you for your decision to live a secular life. I just would never want to live like that. I love the kingdom-of-God style life. It's far better than a secular lifestyle IMO. Choosing to follow God in the same way Joshua states in Joshua 24:15 yields outstanding results.

IOW, God's ethics far surpass man's ethics, and I recommend HIS ethics to anyone or any society.

Spiritlight · Feb 26, 2016

Archivist said:
Please provide statistics showing that accident rates increase in countries where women go topless.

We tried it n the 70's

Truthfrees · Feb 26, 2016

squirrel123 said:
IF I have only one with me, and IF there is a suitable place to change into one, possibly. But sweaty lycra can get really yucky fast and beaches aren't the only place where men get to go shirtless. A loose-fitting cotton tank top is often more comfortable, even if slightly warmer, than a swimsuit top.

Either way, it should be my choice. It's ridiculous that men get to control what I wear (or don't wear).

Thanks for the clarification.

Are there not cotton halter tops or some other choice not so sweaty?

As far as men controlling what you wear why would you say that?

How has a man controlled your wardrobe choices?

I've heard that women have more effect on what women wear than men do.

IOW, the women in free society are the ones who influence each other, not men.

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Truthfrees said:
IMO, trying to divorce GOD from your life choices and live an entirely secular life is for sure a personal choice, but I'm giving scriptural proof that you're asking for trouble if you live that way, lead your family in that way, and promote that lifestyle in society.

First, I am certainly not trying to divorce God from my life. I'm trying to figure out how promoting equal rights for women would give you that idea. Second, you ahve yet to offer any proof to counter waht I have said in thsi thread.

So is TOPLESS mentioned in Scripture? No, not that word, but nakedness is. Topless women for sure is included in all the "nakedness", 'modest", and "live a pleasing life" type scriptures in the Bible.

Is toplessness included in nakedness? We know that nudity was much more common in Biblical times. Peter fishing while naked in plain view of those on shore. In the early church baptisms were performed in the nude. 1 Timothy does not mention discusses modesty in terms of overdsressing--elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes--not underdressing.

You're using semantics to interpret the Bible in a way that I disagree with. I'm interpreting the Bible in a way that matches the HOLY character of GOD.

And you are free to your interpretation of Scripture. However I find nothing in Scripture to support what you are saying.

So now what? I do not accept your interpretation and you do not accept my interpretation. God is the one we all answer to. But my opinion is equally valid, even though it differs from yours. So I respect your personal free will decision to exclude God and His holiness instructions from your lifestyle due to the fact that you can't find "topless women" mentioned in the Bible.

Just because you do not agree with my interpretation of Scripture does not mean that I have chose to "exclude God and His holiness instructions from [my] lifestyle." Judge not lest ye be judged.

But I see holiness, goodness, modesty, purity, etc all through the Bible, and I will continue to base my ETHICS and MORALITY on scripture/God's society/kingdom, not on secular society. I'm in God's society/kingdom. I'm in the world but not of the world. 1 Peter 2:9, Colossians 1:13, John 17:15 I don't in any way condemn you for your decision to live a secular life. I just would never want to live like that again. I left the secular life when I met Jesus. I love the new kingdom-of-God style life. It's far better than the life I had before choosing to follow God in the same way Joshua states in Joshua 24:15.

Still waiting you any evidence from Scripture showing that it is immodest or unethical for a woman to go topless where men go topless.

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Spiritlight said:
We tried it n the 70's

I've seen that. It is a spoof, not evidence.

Truthfrees · Feb 26, 2016

Archivist said:
So men shouldn't go topless on "family friendly" beaches.

Women can wear cool bikini swim suit style cotton halter tops, which is in essence topless/shirtless.

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Truthfrees said:
Women can wear cool swim suit style cotton halter tops, which is in essence topless/shirtless.

So should men be required to wear the same?

Spiritlight · Feb 26, 2016

Archivist said:
I've seen that. It is a spoof, not evidence.

lol did you think any of my posts were serious?

Archivist · Feb 26, 2016

Spiritlight said:
lol did you think any of my posts were serious?

Please keep discussion serious here.

Truthfrees · Feb 26, 2016

@Archivist

Apologies if I sounded judgemental.

IMO, secular is excluding God's instructions. Scripture encourages us to follow every word that comes out of the mouth of God. Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4

The spirit of the law more so than the letter of the law.

Purity, modesty, holiness, and nakedness are fully addressed in scripture.

You and I disagree on interpretation.

My opinion is equally valid compared to yours.

Neither of us will be able to change the other's mind, so now what?

And in discussions like these is anyone really open to changing their mind?

Aren't our opinions already set?

In even this regard you and I are still equal and opposite.

Truthfrees · Feb 26, 2016

Archivist said:
So should men be required to wear the same?

Why? They are already equally shirtless?

IOW, neither of them are wearing a shirt.

Both are being cool.

Both of them are modest.

You're passing beyond the realm of practical into the realm of unnecessary.

You're pushing "equality" too far.

The need to be cool and modest is perfectly addressed by a bikini style cotton swim top.

Need met, problem solved, issue dissolved.

Pushing the issue to a philosophical extreme serves no practical purpose.

The ethics have been satisfied with an inexpensive bikini style cotton swim top.

We have a win/win situation, with no PRACTICAL down-side, for those who are looking for a solution to a problem.

ToddNotTodd · Feb 26, 2016

Truthfrees said:
Need met, problem solved, issue dissolved.

Pushing the issue to a philosophical extreme serves no practical purpose.

The ethics have been satisfied with an inexpensive bikini style cotton swim top.

We have a win/win situation, with no PRACTICAL down-side, for those who are looking for a solution to a problem.

Lol. It's a win/win to you. Not to the women who want the same rights as men. And since there's no actual downside to women's nipples being exposed on the beach, I say let them do what they want. Honestly, I couldn't care less where or when anyone is topless. Because I wasn't born a Puritan in the 1600's...

Why Should Women not be Permitted to go Topless in Public?

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