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Why should people be happy?

Eudaimonist

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For a short moment, may be yes. For a whole day, not likely.

I don't see why that should have to be the case. What sort of things do you think will intrude on one's peace of mind?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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juvenissun

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I don't see why that should have to be the case. What sort of things do you think will intrude on one's peace of mind?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Like I said: everything has two sides. You can momentarily not to think about the other side, but it won't be long.

You described the state of happiness. But you forgot the cause of it would also be the cause of other feelings. We can not run away from this fact.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Like I said: everything has two sides. You can momentarily not to think about the other side, but it won't be long.

I don't understand what you are saying here. What has two sides? Can you give a few examples?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Ronald

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Some of the most depressed people I've known are people-pleasers who do little more than help others.
I wouldn't say most depressed. Certainly the co-dependant types who feel obligated to serve others have a problem. People take advantage of their kindness and use them. If these people pleasers are looking for some return, "what's in it for me", that's when they get depressed, because they aren't getting it back. Someone like Mother Teresa didn't expect anything back and she was happy to serve. People in general that help others without getting anything back and demonstrating Agape love. This is a pure godly love which has no strings attached.
Depression may have medical reasons.
Take a pill to feel secure and happy, remove pain and sorrow, etc., is not solving the core problem, it's just masking it, drugging by dulling the person. Might as well smoke a joint and forget about it. Wait, now they are administering that as well for all sorts of pain and suffering.
Basically, there's a lot of junk inside that is defective, like a disease. Other people's junk effects us as well. The only way to remove this junk is by forgiveness --God's forgiveness. Yet even after we are saved, Christians still struggle with the flesh (where sin dwells). It takes work to mortify and die to yourself. Bad habits take a while to break. We can change with God's help, but left to ourselves, at best, you just survive without hope and purpose or meaning.


As a Eudaimonist, I think the greatest moral achievement is the flourishing of the individual in this life, which requires such means as rationality, good character, and friendship. I'm also a nontheist.
Rationality, character and friendship are gifts from God. These are things he works on to grow in your life. But without Him, you don't flourish --you just grow old without hope, chasing after the wind and then die. All the stuff you gained in life will have been forfeited and lost. And so the questions for atheists are: Why live, grow, mature and gain all the wisdom and knowledge or achievements to just lose it all in the end? You think you're just passing stuff on to someone else? But they die too. So will you say on your last day? What was your purpose in life and what did your life mean?
The Christian perspective is that the meaning and purpose of life is that we reconcile with God through Jesus and gain eternal life --then everything that you've learned in wisdom and character, the invisible you is not lost but passes on. That's something to hope for and look forward to. That is part of the pursuit of happiness, the core of joy, a relationship with GOD! If this doesn't happen, then it doesn't matter what you do. If you think it's survival of the fittest, then a turtle got you beat.
 
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juvenissun

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I don't understand what you are saying here. What has two sides? Can you give a few examples?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Anything or any situation that makes you happy has at least one more side which will make you unhappy.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Anything or any situation that makes you happy has at least one more side which will make you unhappy.

I've still no clue what you are talking about. Examples?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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I wouldn't say most depressed.

I would.

Certainly the co-dependant types who feel obligated to serve others have a problem. People take advantage of their kindness and use them. If these people pleasers are looking for some return, "what's in it for me", that's when they get depressed

No, they get depressed when they aren't getting a basic psychological need, which is to be repected as an individual. You are painting them as "selfish" and calculating, which isn't the case.

Someone like Mother Teresa didn't expect anything back and she was happy to serve.

Mother Teresa never claimed to be happy her entire career.

Take a pill to feel secure and happy, remove pain and sorrow, etc., is not solving the core problem, it's just masking it, drugging by dulling the person.

Unless, of course, it is solving the core problem. Sometimes the core problem is psychological, and sometimes it is not.

BTW, I'm not defending the current excess of prescribing pills just because people report that they feel bad. I totally agree that often times this is just a patch to a deeper issue.

Rationality, character and friendship are gifts from God.

No, they aren't. They are personal accomplishments.

And so the questions for atheists are: Why live, grow, mature and gain all the wisdom and knowledge or achievements to just lose it all in the end?

I live, grow, mature, and gain wisdom, knowledge, and achievements because I benefit from these while I am alive. Life is an end-it-itself, not a means to some infinite future that never arrives. Such things are important NOW, while one yet lives. They do not lose their value because some day one will be dead.

You think you're just passing stuff on to someone else?

Nope.

So will you say on your last day? What was your purpose in life and what did your life mean?

My purpose in life was to make the best use out of every living moment. It was actualize the best in myself, and to create life-affirming values. It was to fulfill the best of my nature as a human being and as the unique and irreplacable individual that I am.

If you think it's survival of the fittest, then a turtle got you beat.

I would never say that the purpose of life was "the survival of the fittest".


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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juvenissun

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I've still no clue what you are talking about. Examples?


eudaimonia,

Mark

You tell me one thing which makes you happy, then I can tell you at least one more view of the same thing, which will make you not happy.
 
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Eudaimonist

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You tell me one thing which makes you happy, then I can tell you at least one more view of the same thing, which will make you not happy.

Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that one of the activities in which I experience happiness is a creative hobby that I engage in for a few hours every weekend.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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juvenissun

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Okay, let's say for the sake of argument that one of the activities in which I experience happiness is a creative hobby that I engage in for a few hours every weekend.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Of course, when you do that, you feel happy.

But, think about the associated consequences: What do you do with your products? To what degree you are going to perfect them? Why don't you spend more time in doing it? Are you able to find somebody else to share the joy? Does it cost you too much money (expensive) or too little money (cheap)?

Just to name a few. I believe there are more. These considerations and responsibilities certainly do NOT make you feel as happy as the action.

Just like using drugs. One does not have to think about the unhappy parts of the action until it is necessary to face them. You sure be able to say that when you using drug, it is a happy moment.
 
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Eudaimonist

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But, think about the associated consequences: What do you do with your products? To what degree you are going to perfect them? Why don't you spend more time in doing it? Are you able to find somebody else to share the joy? Does it cost you too much money (expensive) or too little money (cheap)?

Just to name a few. I believe there are more. These considerations and responsibilities certainly do NOT make you feel as happy as the action.

No, they don't make me feel unhappy.

These are not examples of inner conflict for me. The existence of options is not the same thing as the experience of feeling torn between those options. I'm fully capable of setting priorities and dealing with the limitations set by reality.

An example of an inner conflict would be if I felt that what I was doing for a hobby (such as in your drug example) was not something good for me, and I shouldn't be doing that at all. At that point I might feel torn, and therefore unhappy, when I face up to that issue. That sort of experience simply doesn't exist for me regarding any hobbies of mine, since those particular ones are creative and not at all self-destructive.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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juvenissun

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No, they don't make me feel unhappy.

These are not examples of inner conflict for me. The existence of options is not the same thing as the experience of feeling torn between those options. I'm fully capable of setting priorities and dealing with the limitations set by reality.

An example of an inner conflict would be if I felt that what I was doing for a hobby (such as in your drug example) was not something good for me, and I shouldn't be doing that at all. At that point I might feel torn, and therefore unhappy, when I face up to that issue. That sort of experience simply doesn't exist for me regarding any hobbies of mine, since those particular ones are creative and not at all self-destructive.


eudaimonia,

Mark

The two examples are different only in the degree of troubling. One is very minor and one is very serious. But the nature of them is the same: Something makes you happy, but there are also consequences that will trouble you.

So, we can not find something which makes us happy without having side effects, that suppress the feeling of happiness at the same time or at a later time. So to look at the action all together, you do can rate the degree of happiness. For your "harmless" hobby, may be you will be 90% happy. For the drug use, may be there is only 30% happiness.
 
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Eudaimonist

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The two examples are different only in the degree of troubling.

Sorry, no.

There is a crucial aspect in which they differ. In the case of drugs, one knows (if one is rational and honestly examines the matter, and maybe even subconsciously at other times) that what one is doing is self-destructive. In the case of a hobby that is creative, there is no such concern. There is no reason to think that the hobby isn't something one should be doing.

So, we can not find something which makes us happy without having side effects, that suppress the feeling of happiness at the same time or at a later time. So to look at the action all together, you do can rate the degree of happiness. For your "harmless" hobby, may be you will be 90% happy.

No, it is possible to be 100% happy with my hobby, which is actually harmless, not harmless with scare quotes.

It's really very simple. It involves accepting it for what it is instead of being attached to what I'd like it to be. For example, if I was attached to the idea that this hobby was going to impress my friends, and let's say that they weren't impressed no matter what I did, then I would experience inner-conflict and would not be happy. I would feel torn and frustrated. However, if I had no such expectation of their reaction, then whatever signs that they may be impressed would just be a bonus. I would not feel torn or frustrated.

What you are describing is a "rigid" personality that creates inner conflict through attachments to desired outcomes that might not ever come to exist in reality. This is not a particularly rational approach to values. A rational person understands that reality does not have to conform to one's wishes.

So while I think that you are right that some people, perhaps even most people, might experience unhappiness in their hobbies, it isn't anything like a requirement that they must feel torn in the process.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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juvenissun

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Sorry, no.

There is a crucial aspect in which they differ. In the case of drugs, one knows (if one is rational and honestly examines the matter, and maybe even subconsciously at other times) that what one is doing is self-destructive. In the case of a hobby that is creative, there is no such concern. There is no reason to think that the hobby isn't something one should be doing.



No, it is possible to be 100% happy with my hobby, which is actually harmless, not harmless with scare quotes.

It's really very simple. It involves accepting it for what it is instead of being attached to what I'd like it to be. For example, if I was attached to the idea that this hobby was going to impress my friends, and let's say that they weren't impressed no matter what I did, then I would experience inner-conflict and would not be happy. I would feel torn and frustrated. However, if I had no such expectation of their reaction, then whatever signs that they may be impressed would just be a bonus. I would not feel torn or frustrated.

What you are describing is a "rigid" personality that creates inner conflict through attachments to desired outcomes that might not ever come to exist in reality. This is not a particularly rational approach to values. A rational person understands that reality does not have to conform to one's wishes.

So while I think that you are right that some people, perhaps even most people, might experience unhappiness in their hobbies, it isn't anything like a requirement that they must feel torn in the process.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I like to read. But I know my eyesight will become worse through time due to the excessive reading. And I tends to spend money to buy updated gadget for reading even I don't need to.

Well, everything, hobby or not, has its negative side. There is no use to argue on that.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Well, everything, hobby or not, has its negative side. There is no use to argue on that.

Yes, but you are talking here about aspects of life one simply has to accept as part of being human, such as the effects of aging. Whether you read or not, your eyesight will get worse. And what is the point of sharp eyesight if not to read?

I doubt that the hobby of reading (which I share with you) is ever going to be viewed as a bad thing in itself or as a waste of one's life. This is why reading is not necessarily a source of unhappiness. If you value reading, and are content to read as much as you can in your life, then it is all worthwhile.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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juvenissun

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Yes, but you are talking here about aspects of life one simply has to accept as part of being human, such as the effects of aging. Whether you read or not, your eyesight will get worse. And what is the point of sharp eyesight if not to read?

I doubt that the hobby of reading (which I share with you) is ever going to be viewed as a bad thing in itself or as a waste of one's life. This is why reading is not necessarily a source of unhappiness. If you value reading, and are content to read as much as you can in your life, then it is all worthwhile.


eudaimonia,

Mark

As I said, when you only see the happy side of a hobby (or an addiction), it is always good. But, there are unhappy sides too.

When accept that as a fact of human life, religion DOES can turn some bad sides around and make some activities to become 100% happy. So, here is my bottom line: 100% happiness can only be achieved in religion.
 
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Eudaimonist

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As I said, when you only see the happy side of a hobby (or an addiction), it is always good. But, there are unhappy sides too.

In your concept of unhappiness, not mine.

For me, "bad sides" to something do not automatically create inner-conflict. Just because something may have a "bad side", such as eye strain while reading, that doesn't make it a self-destructive activity, in the way that drug abuse would.

When accept that as a fact of human life, religion DOES can turn some bad sides around and make some activities to become 100% happy. So, here is my bottom line: 100% happiness can only be achieved in religion.

LOL! :doh:

You have come nowhere near to showing that only religion helps people to deal with the "bad sides" of life. I have shown the opposite.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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