Why should one care if ''God'' exists?

[keith99]

I like to tell Christians we'll be seeing each other in Muslim hell.

Is that the place where you get 40 dark eyed virgins.... Who are going to stay that way for eternity!

I'm working on getting a cushy job in Hell coming up with creative tortures.

The mere physical gets boring after a few thousand years.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Happiness is subjective just like pain, hunger, anger, delight, pleasure, etc... All of these things are experienced by a subject. But there are objects outside of the subject that cause these experiences and states of being.

That's true. And the activity that the subject engages in that produces those feelings of happiness is itself objective. It's not all about what is external.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Tree of Life]

If happiness is subjective (and I agree) how can you then claim, it is necessary to have a relationship with God, for one to be happy??

Makes zero sense and is another way in which you contradict yourself.

It's like saying that food, shelter, and clothing are necessary for happiness. Happiness is still subjective, but it depends on objective things.

 

[Skavau]

Relationship with God is relevant because it's necessary for happiness.

How do you explain all the Atheists across the world that in fact, are happy?

Are we lying?

 

[Tree of Life]

How do you explain all the Atheists across the world that in fact, are happy?

Are we lying?

Humans are generally unaware of their misery. It takes the Spirit of God to convince us that we are sinful and miserable.

Think back on your life. Have you ever been in a season in which you thought that you were happy at the time, but looking back now you realize that you were miserable; you just didn't know it? You can say this because you know things or possess things now that you didn't know or possess then. You didn't even know that you needed them. But now that you know or have them you can't imagine going back to when you didn't. Now you're more truly happy whereas then you only thought you were happy.

The Christian claims that the same is true with conversion. Before conversion we weren't truly happy, we only thought we were happy. But now that we know God and possess Christ we realize that we were truly miserable before.

Drug addicts believe that they're happy. But when they come out of drug addiction they discover a happiness that they didn't know existed.

Overweight, sedentary people believe that they're happy. But when they start eating healthy and exercising they discover a happiness that they didn't know existed.

My claim is that the same is true with unbelief and belief.

 

[Skavau]

Humans are generally unaware of their misery. It takes the Spirit of God to convince us that we are sinful and miserable.

If merely being unaware of our misery means we're able to be happy, then we're effectively happy. There is no meaningful distinction.

Your position on this is akin to a conspiracy theory. You literally believe all of the non-believing segment of humanity are under a delusion of happiness.

Think back on your life. Have you ever been in a season in which you thought that you were happy at the time, but looking back now you realize that you were miserable; you just didn't know it?

At times, likely - though at no point could the reason for that be attributed to a non-belief in a deity.

The Christian claims that the same is true with conversion. Before conversion we weren't truly happy, we only thought we were happy. But now that we know God and possess Christ we realize that we were truly miserable before.

So what is the meaningful distinction?

Drug addicts believe that they're happy. But when they come out of drug addiction they discover a happiness that they didn't know existed.

Overweight, sedentary people believe that they're happy. But when they start eating healthy and exercising they discover a happiness that they didn't know existed.

Third parties can observe drug addicts, alcoholics and overweight individuals and see how they can be harming themselves and others around them. They can see the money being frittered away on alcohol and drugs, opportunities squandered and lost. They can see the bad health that the overweight person might be in and the squalor they may live in. Those habits and lifestyle choices are objectively harmful to those who engage in them - but lets not pretend that they don't have positive aspects.

These elements are simply not present from not believing in God. There are no intrinsic observable effects that you can present exist in an Atheist that would not exist if they were to just convert to Christianity.

My claim is that the same is true with unbelief and belief.

Your claim of course, is unfalsifiable.

 

[Tree of Life]

If merely being unaware of our misery means we're able to be happy, then we're effectively happy. There is no meaningful distinction.

Your position on this is akin to a conspiracy theory. You literally believe all of the non-believing segment of humanity are under a delusion of happiness.

Something like this, yes.

So what is the meaningful distinction?

Distinction between what?

Third parties can observe drug addicts, alcoholics and overweight individuals and see how they can be harming themselves and others around them. They can see the money being frittered away on alcohol and drugs, opportunities squandered and lost. They can see the bad health that the overweight person might be in and the squalor they may live in. Those habits and lifestyle choices are objectively harmful to those who engage in them - but lets not pretend that they don't have positive aspects.

These elements are simply not present from not believing in God. There are no intrinsic observable effects that you can present exist in an Atheist that would not exist if they were to just convert to Christianity.

Those who have eyes to see can see the effects of unbelief.

 

[Skavau]

Distinction between what?

1) Being happy, but not being aware of our actual misery (whatever that means in this context).

vs.

2) Being happy

There are no negative behavioural tendencies from being an atheist to oneself or to others so the comparison with drug addicts, alcoholics is flawed.

So what's the distinction?

Those who have eyes to see can see the effects of unbelief.

Yet clearly you can't articulate the "effects of unbelief". You'll presumably make your unfalsifiable statement and leave us all hanging indefinitely.

 

[Tree of Life]

1) Being happy, but not being aware of our actual misery (whatever that means in this context).

vs.

2) Being happy

There are no negative behavioural tendencies from being an atheist to oneself or to others so the comparison with drug addicts, alcoholics is flawed.

So what's the distinction?

It's not a comparison but an analogy. Coming from drug addiction to sobriety is analogous to coming from unbelief to belief.

Before I respond let me make sure that I understand your claim. Are you saying that theistic belief (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to human behavior?

Yet clearly you can't articulate the "effects of unbelief". You'll presumably make your unfalsifiable statement and leave us all hanging indefinitely.

My response to this will be closely related to my response to your above claim.

 

[Skavau]

It's not a comparison but an analogy. Coming from drug addiction to sobriety is analogous to coming from unbelief to belief.

Christians who convert to Atheism say the same thing. Christians who convert to Islam say the same thing. Funnily enough people always look back on their previous metaphysical and religious beliefs and put them in a worse light than their current beliefs.

Before I respond let me make sure that I understand your claim. Are you saying that theistic belief (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to human behavior?

Yes.

You cannot determine someone's personality or honour solely from whether or not they believe in a God or not.

 

[fireof god98]

Happiness is subjective just like pain, hunger, anger, delight, pleasure, etc... All of these things are experienced by a subject. But there are objects outside of the subject that cause these experiences and states of being.

it is still subjective. for example some people might be happy to see fireflies go back on the air and some might get a sadness from it.

 

[bhsmte]

It's like saying that food, shelter, and clothing are necessary for happiness. Happiness is still subjective, but it depends on objective things.

Then please clarify.

Objective things? Some people require a lot of objective things to be happy, others don't.

So, please clarify, why can't a person who does not believe in a God, find happiness?

 

[Noxot]

But in Revelation, there are those who do go there because they made the conscious decision to reject Christ's mercy. Some of the atheists here are focused on that, to the exclusion of all else.

i highly doubt they are focused on rejecting christ's mercy as they do not even believe in his mercy. what is Christ's mercy anyways? what does it mean when someone rejects his mercy? in what manner can someone reject his mercy?

If happiness is subjective (and I agree) how can you then claim, it is necessary to have a relationship with God, for one to be happy??

Makes zero sense and is another way in which you contradict yourself.

there is a difference in eternal and infinite happiness and temporal happiness. God is the wellspring of everlasting joy, it is a reason to want to know him but most do not see him in that manner anyways.

There are no intrinsic observable effects that you can present exist in an Atheist that would not exist if they were to just convert to Christianity.

if an atheist turned into a mystic then there would be plenty of evidence that shows real changes in them but atheist would dismiss them all as mere psychological and biochemical changes and that is true that they are those things but merely understanding the mechanics of something does not explain the ultimate reason of why even though the atheist type of mindset would say that the mechanical effects of the changes are the very cause ( and the physical has to change to reflect the spiritual reality as the physical reality is a symbolic reality and a reflection of the spiritual )... this is because atheist have a certain kind of world view and they believe reality to be based on certain principles and they do not see a reason as to why they ought to include those realities which they can not measure or understand nor do they believe them to be real. so because atheist believe all things of the physical reality to be caused by the physical reality they tend to come to conclusions that are based on the physical reality even if in truth physical reality is only part of the story.

You cannot determine someone's personality or honour solely from whether or not they believe in a God or not.

certainly not a mere belief in God amounts to much of anything. personality and honor are a better standard to judge someone by. a persons heart is what matters the most.

 

[Skavau]

if an atheist turned into a mystic then there would be plenty of evidence that shows real changes in them but atheist would dismiss them all as mere psychological and biochemical changes and that is true that they are those things but merely understanding the mechanics of something does not explain the ultimate reason of why even though the atheist type of mindset would say that the mechanical effects of the changes are the very cause ( and the physical has to change to reflect the spiritual reality as the physical reality is a symbolic reality and a reflection of the spiritual )... this is because atheist have a certain kind of world view and they believe reality to be based on certain principles and they do not see a reason as to why they ought to include those realities which they can not measure or understand nor do they believe them to be real. so because atheist believe all things of the physical reality to be caused by the physical reality they tend to come to conclusions that are based on the physical reality even if in truth physical reality is only part of the story.

What?

 

[Noxot]

What?

spiritual transformation has an affect in how the brain functions. it is one of the effects of changing from one state of being into another. it is not like 'affect' or 'effect' can truly describe what happens in spiritual transformation as this reality is both part of and different from the greater whole of reality which is why there is both distinction and no distinction in a REALITY that is more grand than our object reality since TRUTH is greater than the tiny facts and small truths that this object or physical reality is formed by ( and those small truths come out of the TRUTH, the single expression that is the totality of all things, the language of God or Gods creative thoughts ). but like all evidence or proofs , it is subjected to the interpretation of a persons manner of understanding and perception of how reality is and the laws in their belief structures and perceptions that they create or abide by that tell them how to think and what is the truth/TRUTH.

reality is more 'anarchic' than it is objective but the physical reality is very object orientated but 'chaos' or 'infinite expression' is more of a right expression of seeing the totality of reality from a perspective more grand than even the ideas of a multiverse... due to the expressions of God being more than eternal, more than infinite. it is only in viewing parts of a thing that we come to find various rules and laws but the totality of it all contains all things, contradicting laws and all that. all ideas in God, even things such as 'separation' have their divine origin in the unity of his creative purpose and expression. 'multiplicity' and 'oneness' are the same truth as everything at its core comes from an divine idea of what is called 'freedom'... which creates subjective and objective reality. and in other types or parts of reality there is no real difference between the two. once could say that this objective reality we dwell in is an expression of a reality called 'subjective spirit'. it is like if I write a story from my creativity which then becomes a kind of more solid thing.... as the creativity was expressed in a certain kind of manner.

the spirit of a person is a higher kind of reality than this body of necessity and this universe that has certain rules it goes by. the difference between a spirit and a soul is that the soul is a more crystallized version while the spirit is a more fine type of expression. spirit and soul are just two different expressions of the same thing. each spirit has it's eternal roots in an divine idea of freedom and each one is a unique child of the Spirit of spirits who is called God... and yet we are all the same thing... I say 'spirit' for lack of a word that could express the higher realities and the core of what we are and what all types of realities are rooted in. but it is also known as "the kingdom of God".

i have a very different perception of reality which means I come to different conclusions. I obtain my knowledge in a different manner than the fallen logic of humans who are very limited in their body of necessity and by the blinders of this one little aspect of reality called 'our universe'. obviously most atheist find me to be very illogical and I find them to be illogical as well to some degree.

obviously one main difference between an atheist kind of mindset and mine is that in their view humans play almost no role in this reality while in mine they are the very actors on the stage. one comes to different conclusions depending if they believe the play to be a real thing or if they see everything as a kind of play done in heaven. there is no convincing those who believe the actors to be a real thing that they are just actors, you simply are either caught up in a fantasy/dream or you are not. the ones believing the play to be real will think I have the fantasy and the ones not so bound to this maze believe those trapped in the maze to be confused/lost.

 

[Aldebaran]

Christians who convert to Atheism say the same thing. Christians who convert to Islam say the same thing. Funnily enough people always look back on their previous metaphysical and religious beliefs and put them in a worse light than their current beliefs.

A good number of those people would also tell you about their Christian life as being one of "doing things" to get to heaven, and always living under a cloud of guilt. That's not what Christ intended for us. He asks us to accept His gift of eternal life and fellowship with Him, rather than binding ourselves to slavery to another set of rules.

 

[Skavau]

A good number of those people would also tell you about their Christian life as being one of "doing things" to get to heaven, and always living under a cloud of guilt. That's not what Christ intended for us. He asks us to accept His gift of eternal life and fellowship with Him, rather than binding ourselves to slavery to another set of rules.

It doesn't matter how they interpreted their Christian life. The point was is that people who convert out of a religion into another, or to none at all tend to describe their old life as lacking in some way.

Funnily enough people always prefer the beliefs they currently have. If they didn't, they wouldn't have them.

 

[Aldebaran]

i highly doubt they are focused on rejecting christ's mercy as they do not even believe in his mercy. what is Christ's mercy anyways? what does it mean when someone rejects his mercy? in what manner can someone reject his mercy?

When they hear about it and decide He's not real, that Christ isn't who He said He was, when they believe they are good enough on their own.

 

[bhsmte]

When they hear about it and decide He's not real, that Christ isn't who He said He was, when they believe they are good enough on their own.

Maybe, just maybe, many simply don't see the evidence to believe such a story.

Sort of how you don't believe in the Hindu Gods, or fairies, etc..

 

[Noxot]

When they hear about it and decide He's not real, that Christ isn't who He said He was, when they believe they are good enough on their own.

how can one who has not seen believe or not believe what they have not seen? what if a person decides Christ is not real and yet by the very person they are they are to some degree correctly seeking the kingdom of God in one manner or another? sometimes it is better for one to not be caught up in religion seeing as how the greatest snares are probably from that which is closest to the truth. obviously the religion of Christianity, though it has more often than not fallen very short of Jesus Christ, would be a choice place wherein to make war with and trap others in pits. wolves in sheeps clothing are far more dangerous than some lone wolf far away from sheep. those lone wolves often walk by deer and do not attack them but instead choose to pluck fish out of the river and eat their heads... leaving the rest of the body for some starving human. reality is FAR more complex than a simple "he is either a wolf or a sheep".

in each person there is a battle of the inner devils vs Christ and just because a man may stumble in the ideas of religion does not mean he stumbles in loving others. a christian might understand some things that others do not and yet stumble in other respects. so what advantage has one over the other? CHRISTIANS have the advantage, or at least they should and yet so many of us get caught up in various follies that atheist tend to avoid due to them simply not walking the paths we walk. they might have different dangers to face but we are all equal in this race of good vs evil. we all pick whatever we want according to our capacities and abilities.

do not forget that our battle is not with flesh and blood but with evil spirits that influence people to do evil in various ways. a man that does good is being lead by good angels. all good things are gifts from God. we all fall short and we are all works in progress. even Hitler helped and blessed many in one form or another. even if he did only evil in his life he stood out as an example of what evil brings about and what blindly following some "leader" does to others. therefore in his own way he was a light to many by the grace of God... though God wanted Hitler to be so much more than he decided to be.