Why Should I Want To Go To Heaven?

[ericlawrence]

I think sin has pleasure for a season, but sin is selfish and hurts others so it would be hard to be happy.

I'm not talking about sin. I'm simply asking if you would still have happiness in your life if it could be demonstrated that the afterlife did not exist.

OK this is a huge subject.
If your mother took a bullet for you would that be an act of Love on her part?

Yes. But it would immediately become something different if I was told I'm responsible for her death and must repent for it - that her death now binds me to an eternity of worship in which she'll never go away - and that it was I who fired the gun.

Yes, but why would you do such a thing?
You would have plenty of reason to believe the story of satan and his demise.

Well there wasn't any real "demise" of Satan, was there? He just went somewhere else. Apparently he had his reasons. I wont know unless if I meet god, but I might have my reasons as well.

What would you gain by doing evil and what “evil” would you consider doing?

Probably I wouldn't worship or otherwise be servile to the creator. Though I wouldn't really know unless if I was there. Let me put it this way though: Say I arrive at a party - a really great party - only to be told 20 minutes later, "You have to leave. The rest of the party is simply going to continue without you." This would be unpleasant. But however unpleasant that would be, it would be infinitely more desirable than arriving at the same party and then told, "You can't ever leave. You have to stay here forever and you have to do as I say." At that point, it wouldn't matter to me how great the party was. The entire experience would instantly be ruined for me.

The only thing anyone has over you is Godly type Love which means they Love you more than you love them, so who is the winner in that situation?

This I find offensive. (Though I'm sure I've offended a few since I've been here.) By what authority do determine that your love weighs more than mine? How could you claim to know such a thing?

 

[ericlawrence]

The problem with that line of logic is that you're not going to be judged by my standard. You're not even going to be judged by your own standard. You're going to be judged by God's standard and God has declared those actions to be tantamount to hatred.

You left out and aren't responding to my rebuttal. I'll rephrase. What if I told you that you're going to be judged by Allah's standard and that Allah has declared worshiping other gods to be tantamount to hatred. Would this mean anything to you? I think not.

Because of His authority, His attributes, and His nature.

What gives him this authority? It can't just assumed.
What are his attributes? What is his nature? Can we comprehend them? If not how do we know what they are?

Really? Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything? Have you ever hated anyone or been angry at someone? Have you ever looked at someone with lustful desires?

Alright Kirk Cameron, what you're describe is sin, a unique concept to your belief system. Ethics are questions regarding the wellbeing of sentient creatures. I live an ethical life - not a life free of sin.

The Bible does say that it's sin free. Satan sinned. Heaven did not.

Nobody is trying to say that Heaven sinned. (How could a place sin?) But Satan sinned while he was in Heaven. At that moment, Heaven was not free from all sin.

 

[Uncle Floyd]

You left out and aren't responding to my rebuttal.

You're absolutely right. I did not respond to it because it's not relevant to the topic of the OP.

You asked why you should want to go to Heaven. I explained to you that you should not want to and you agreed with me. Now, you seem to be arguing that you would want to go to Heaven and I'm not really interested in discussing Islam, paganism, or Greek and Norse mythology here. I joined this thread because of the topic in the OP, not those things.

Alright Kirk Cameron...

I've tried very hard to be respectful to you and I believe I've succeeded, even though my initial suspicions about you and your motives here are turning out to be true. Calling me names doesn't exactly encourage me to want to continue this conversation with you, not to mention that it's a violation of the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up here.

I live an ethical life

I don't believe you do. In fact, I believe that you know you don't live an ethical life and that's why you were afraid to answer the questions.

Lying is unethical. Have you ever lied? Stealing is unethical. Have you ever stolen anything? Murder is unethical. Have you ever hated anyone or been angry with someone without cause? Adultery is unethical. Have you ever looked upon a person with lustful desires?

Given your most recent post, I don't see any point in sticking around for the answers, but I do hope that you'll think about these questions and, if you're honest about the answers, you will find that you're not as ethical as you pretend to be.

Nobody is trying to say that Heaven sinned. (How could a place sin?) But Satan sinned while he was in Heaven. At that moment, Heaven was not free from all sin.

...and then, once the source of the sin was removed, Heaven was free of sin.

 

[oneofchrists]

Hello ericlawrence! I must be clear to You that You will not need a "Go to Hell free card" as Satan does not require them But alas ,..... God does require Your Love and obedience and on top of that...... He reqires that You love others as Yourself or even better than Yourself...if You can....But You must, above all ericlawrence......Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He did For You and all of Mankind.......Can You do this Eric??.........it is so much more than what satan requires ..........Can You do these things ?? or do You even want to? God Bless You .........Dave

 

[ericlawrence]

Designed to take exception to them? I'm not sure what you mean. How would you be designed to take exception to Heaven?

I mean to say that I may be predisposed to resist (and abhor) the promise of eternity. The idea of Heaven strikes me as intuitively unpleasant.

The heavenly, eternal paradise of the Bible is grounded in the idea of it being God's home, not the realm in which every human predilection and instinct may be indulged. I think the biblical heaven goes rather against the grain of human thinking, which suggests it originates outside of the human mind. Certainly, it stands in sharp contrast to the self-serving paradise of the Muslim faith. The Heaven God offers to us in His Word is first and foremost reflective of His nature, not ours.

I don't think it goes against the grain of human thinking at all. The majority of it's description is in regards to the decor. It's all gold and sapphires. Why would the creator of the universe care about gold and sapphires?

Could it be that the human preoccupation with eternity is a consequence of an innate awareness of the fact that God has made us eternal?

That's certainly an unfalsifiable hypothesis. When pressed though, I would have to say that it strikes me as infinitely more likely that the dream of eternity is rooted in the fear of the transient.

God doesn't anticipate in the sense that you and I might. He knows all things without going through some process to obtain that knowledge. There is nothing God doesn't know; He never has to search, or study, or investigate. Consequently, He would know from eternity past what anyone who is Heaven would or will do when they are there. But this knowledge doesn't preclude our freely choosing what we do.

Does god know who is and isn't going to Heaven before he creates them?

From what frame of reference do you arrive at this point of view? Heaven will be an utterly unprecedented experience for all who are there. Trying to compare what it will be like to what we know, trying to extrapolate from our experiences on earth what it will be like in Heaven, is like assessing the flavour of a boston cream pie when all you've ever eaten are mud pies.

Then by what means can it be assumed that it will be pleasant at all?

I meant for a full, complete understanding and knowledge of the Creator we would have to be as He is.

How is does this follow? In order to have a full and complete understanding of a rainbow must we be a rainbow?

We understand in a profoundly limited way some of who He is and what He is seeking to accomplish, and being the finite creatures that we are this will always be the case. The finite cannot contain the infinite.

Then how is it that we're even able to discern that there is a such thing as infinite?

Is the potter identical to the clay pots he makes? Does the clay pot share a common nature with the potter who made it? The world in which we live is well-made, but it is no more divine than a clay pot is human.

A human can theoretically create other humans (and literally do all the time, if you look it as I do). Does this make the creation inherently of less value than the creator? I say there is no standard which denotes this. There's no reason to believe that the creator must be "better" than his creations.

 

[ericlawrence]

You're absolutely right. I did not respond to it because it's not relevant to the topic of the OP.

But it was directly relevant to your response to the OP. As the thread owner, I reserve the right to prod the responses. I assume you still wont answer, but it is relevant to the topic at hand.

You asked why you should want to go to Heaven. I explained to you that you should not want to and you agreed with me. Now, you seem to be arguing that you would want to go to Heaven and I'm not really interested in discussing Islam, paganism, or Greek and Norse mythology here. I joined this thread because of the topic in the OP, not those things.

I'm not arguing that I would want to go Heaven. I'm keeping up with your responses. Besides "You shouldn't" isn't really a proper answer to "Why should I want to go to Heaven?" anyway. I'm happy to continue the discussion with you, but not under the guise of you remaining faithful to the OP while I, rather like the serpent of Eden, tempt you into a thought provoking conversation. We're beyond that point.

I've tried very hard to be respectful to you and I believe I've succeeded, even though my initial suspicions about you and your motives here are turning out to be true. Calling me names doesn't exactly encourage me to want to continue this conversation with you, not to mention that it's a violation of the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up here.

Oh please. Noting that your response was almost directly quoted from Kirk Cameron is hardly name calling. But have it your way; I've got my kid gloves pulled up to my elbows.

I don't believe you do. In fact, I believe that you know you don't live an ethical life and that's why you were afraid to answer the questions.

Then I guess I'll take the bait.

Lying is unethical.

I object. There are times when lying is the only ethical thing to do. Consider this nightmare scenario.

Man: "Do you know where your daughter is?"
You: "Yes."
Man: "Tell me where your daughter is so that I can mercilessly beat, rape, and murder her."

Anything other than lying to this man would certainly be unethical.

Have you ever lied?

Yes.

Stealing is unethical.

I object. There are times when stealing is the only ethical thing to do. Consider this nightmare scenario.

You daughter requires a shot of substance A every 24 hours or she will die a painful and agonizing death. Due to a number of events the entire supply of substance A rests in the hands of a single person who, knowing that people need substance A to live, sells substance A in small quantities at an absurd price. A price which you could not possibly make legitimately given the short notice of only 24 hours.

Anything other than stealing substance A from this man would certainly be unethical.

Have you ever stolen anything?

Yes.

Murder is unethical.

I object. There are a number of obvious nightmare scenarios were murder could be considered ethical. Assassinating Hitler, Killing an armed intruder, etc. I don't feel the need to expand.

Have you ever hated anyone or been angry with someone without cause?

a) Anger is not unethical, and b) no, I haven't hated or been angry with anyone without cause.

Adultery is unethical.

I object. Not if it's consensual. If my wife and I each agree that we are free to pursue extra marital relationships then no harm is done to either party.

Have you ever looked upon a person with lustful desires?

Yes.

Given your most recent post, I don't see any point in sticking around for the answers, but I do hope that you'll think about these questions and, if you're honest about the answers, you will find that you're not as ethical as you pretend to be.

Well I hope you get a chance to see them. I hope that if you're honest about assessing the answers I've given you, you'll find that ethics are not as clear cut as you wish they were.

...and then, once the source of the sin was removed, Heaven was free of sin.

But there weren't any mechanisms put in place to prevent it from happening again, were there?

 

[AlexBP]

Well for me, the pursuit of these pleasures is the experience. I'm not convinced I would be satisfied with only the peak. For example, I don't wish to simply be bestowed with all of the knowledge in the cosmos. I want engage in the active pursuit of this knowledge - this is what makes the payoff so rewarding, to know that I am constantly teetering on the cusp of something like grandeur. To bypass the struggle would ruin the process for me. I wasn't implying a mere extension of human peaks, I was asking if anything like an engaging object could even theoretically exist. Is there anything left to strive for?

I remember back when I was an atheist I once asked a Christian fellow student how he pictured Heaven. He responded that he pictured it as a place where all the saints stood gathered around the throne of God, singing His praises endlessly. I was unable to understand how anyone could view that as a positive thing. Now, I understand it perfectly. My difference in perspective comes simply because I have now tasted a tiny bit of the joys of the mystic. No amount of exploration among the low pleasures, or even mid-level pleasures, can convey an adequate description of it. The idea of having a permanent mystical experience is the real idea of Heaven. Singing the praises of God permanently is an image that helps some of us capture that idea, but I presume that if I get there I will agree that such a metaphor is utterly inadequate to the real thing.

Consider this for a moment. You appear to enjoy intellectual and philosophcial exploration. Suppose you met somebody who firmly believed that the only pleasures in life were food, sex, video games, and the like. Could you convince them that it was worthwhile pursuing intellectual pleasures instead? How would you do it? Would you compare the joys of an intellectual achievement to eating really good food or having really good sex? Wouldn't you agree that that misses the point entirely?

To a child of five, the possibilities of food seem endless. They go into a supermarket and see so many varieites of things to eat that it seems to some the eating experience will never end. To certain children it seems like video games offer endless possibilities. To certain people slightly older, sex looks the same way. However, most people eventually grow out of those things, and we pity the few who never do.

Well, I can only tell you that intellectualism also has its limits. I once thought it was boundless, but then I learned otherwise. A few years of real experience with academic world taught me that the "life of the mind" is not as great as it's cracked up to be. Perhaps Chesterton captured this feeling best in The Ethics of Elfland, (which I highly recommend):

I have remarked that the materialist, like the madman, is in prison; in the prison of one thought. These people seemed to think it singularly inspiring to keep on saying that the prison was very large. The size of this scientific universe gave one no novelty, no relief. The cosmos went on for ever, but not in its wildest constellation could there be anything really interesting; anything, for instance, such as forgiveness or free will. The grandeur or infinity of the secret of its cosmos added nothing to it. It was like telling a prisoner in Reading gaol that he would be glad to hear that the gaol now covered half the county. The warder would have nothing to show the man except more and more long corridors of stone lit by ghastly lights and empty of all that is human. So these expanders of the universe had nothing to show us except more and more infinite corridors of space lit by ghastly suns and empty of all that is divine.

In fairyland there had been a real law; a law that could be broken, for the definition of a law is something that can be broken. But the machinery of this cosmic prison was something that could not be broken; for we ourselves were only a part of its machinery. We were either unable to do things or we were destined to do them. The idea of the mystical condition quite disappeared; one can neither have the firmness of keeping laws nor the fun of breaking them. The largeness of this universe had nothing of that freshness and airy outbreak which we have praised in the universe of the poet. This modern universe is literally an empire; that is, it was vast, but it is not free. One went into larger and larger windowless rooms, rooms big with Babylonian perspective; but one never found the smallest window or a whisper of outer air.

 

[drich0150]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery. (Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.)

Heaven is as much or as little as your capacity for understanding love of God will allow.

Is there freewill in Heaven?

Freewill is the ability to choose a path outside of God's own expressed will. In other words free will is the ability to sin, so no.

Is there pleasure?

Yes

Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise?

God created a seemingly infinite universe, one that we can not currently access.. Why else do you think it is there?

Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover?

Again a bit narrow minded approach to the apparent infinite possibilities simply found in this plain of existence.

An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.

Agreed

What is enticing about heaven to you?

I am hoping for my own star ship (Dibs on the name enterprise) and a crew to explore the stars with!

Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

It really depends on your ability to process the love of God.

 

[Jpark]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery. (Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.)

Is there freewill in Heaven?

Is there pleasure?

Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise?

Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover?

An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.

What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

No free will. But we will be able to seek out anyone in heaven and have conversations with them.

Pleasure in giving thanks to God.

The truth (Jesus) will be fully knowable. Those in heaven will not be interested in the temporal. That knowledge will die without ever being known (unless God reveals Himself to the entire world before Jesus' coming. Then man will be shown great revelations and will say "oh we should have known that it was so obvious" or something like that). However, Eccl. 3:11 indicates that God has appointed that man will not find about every temporal thing, even in heaven. The secrets will die with the first earth and heaven, but God will always know.

Feeling the presence of God is more reassuring than any mystery.

True worship of God is knowing God, not bowing down and doing all that religious stuff. An eternity knowing the Creator personally is worth it.

Heaven is not the reason why I teach. It is because I have felt His presence, and His blood, witnessed it with my own eyes the power it enables, and I have received revelations concerning the future.

 

[CryptoLutheran]

I don't suppose we could get a working definition of "Heaven" here with which to deal with could we?

There are a number of ideas about "Heaven" which, frankly, I find to be somewhat cartoony

or downright unpleasant, such as when Tertullian speaks of the joys of heaven involving Christians being able to see--and mock--the great agony and anguish of those who had in this life persecuted the Christians being tormented day and night in unending fire in hell.

"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? Which rouses me to exultation?— as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more "dissolute" in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows;" - Tertullian De Spectaculis ch. 30

*Though it should be noted that Tertullian, at some point, came to reject mainstream Christianity at the time and joined the rather legalistic and conservative Montanist sect.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Migdala]

Would you mind describing your experience with the holy spirit? I realize you may object to defining the experience with words. Perhaps some situational details such as: Does it happen often? How long does it last? What are some common circumstances which induce the holy spirit?

You don't do anything to "induce" the Holy Spirit....it's just God's Presence that you feel-if you worship God and seek Him with your whole heart, He will be found. I don't know how else to describe it. I have felt His Spirit on me driving down the road, and I had to almost pull over on the side of the road because I had tears of joy and was worshiping so much that I was afraid I'd go off the road. lol

I don't see how unending worship would help to console me over the absence of everything I've ever enjoyed.

Well, I'm not trying to be mean or blunt at all, but until you totally give your heart to Jesus, you won't know what it is like to long for Him with your whole heart. I can promise you that nothing else matters. Last year, my husband (who was not saved) gave me a choice between him and Jesus....I had no problems whatsoever in choosing Jesus, and my husband walked out on me. And I loved him dearly. But I love Jesus so much more!

Followup question: Could you be happy in Heaven knowing that a son, daughter, lover, or other close companion was suffering for all eternity?

From what I understand, I have heard or read that when a person dies, they do not remember anything about their past life. Why do you think that Christians go out of their way to tell others about Jesus? They don't WANT them to go to Hell. And again, you don't understand the love for Jesus that Christians have....to be united with God in Heaven is all that matters....the Bible says that there will be no sadness, tears, or pain in Heaven...so that would only make sense that we would not know of someone else's suffering. We would only be worshiping God forever....I can think of NOTHING better!

 

[aiki]

I mean to say that I may be predisposed to resist (and abhor) the promise of eternity. The idea of Heaven strikes me as intuitively unpleasant.

To each his own...

I don't think it goes against the grain of human thinking at all. The majority of it's description is in regards to the decor. It's all gold and sapphires. Why would the creator of the universe care about gold and sapphires?

The majority of the Bible's description of heaven revolves around gold and sapphire decor? You sure about that? The descriptions and comments the Bible offers about heaven are broader than you appear to know.

That's certainly an unfalsifiable hypothesis. When pressed though, I would have to say that it strikes me as infinitely more likely that the dream of eternity is rooted in the fear of the transient.

Well, this is consistent with your apparent worldview.

Does god know who is and isn't going to Heaven before he creates them?

Yes.

Then by what means can it be assumed that it will be pleasant at all?

This is an odd question. What things would commend a boston cream pie to one who has only eaten mud pies? Not ever having eaten a boston cream pie does not mean one cannot discern that it would be more palatable than a mud pie. Being able to recognize that a boston cream pie is better than a mud pie is not, however, the same as actually having eaten a boston cream pie. In the same way, recognizing that being in heaven is a superior state of existence to our earthly one does not mean we understand precisely the nature of that superior state. Whether its a boston cream pie or heaven, one must "taste" it to fully appreciate its excellence.

How is does this follow? In order to have a full and complete understanding of a rainbow must we be a rainbow?

Is a rainbow infinite? Is it sentient? Has it created a universe?

Then how is it that we're even able to discern that there is a such thing as infinite?

What does this question have to do with my point?

A human can theoretically create other humans (and literally do all the time, if you look it as I do).

No, they don't create - at least not as the Creator does. When a couple conceives a child they have no control over its gender, its mental capacities, its physical qualities and abilities. God does, however. He knows and ordains precisely what features each human being will have.

Does this make the creation inherently of less value than the creator?

Yes, and profoundly different in nature, as well. Creation is contingent on the Creator, but the reverse is not true.

I say there is no standard which denotes this. There's no reason to believe that the creator must be "better" than his creations.

Apparently, you missed the point of my pot and Potter analogy...

Selah.

 

[solarwave]

While, in my experience, Christians are capable of describing the horrors of Hell vividly and with great proficiency, they have yet to dream up an illustration of eternal happiness that can be conveyed in a way that anyone should so much as be impressed with the scenery. (Islam, on the other hand, has at least made a rather crude attempt at sweetening the pot with the promise of 72 virgins.) Is there freewill in Heaven? Is there pleasure? Is there any truth left to search for in Heaven or has the pursuit of knowledge become a dead enterprise? Where is the value of living for an eternity with no mysteries left to uncover? An eternity spent groveling beneath rule of an immortal king who's absolute rule over the kingdom will never come to an end, and who will never let you go - I dare say, to me this would be Hell.
What is enticing about Heaven to you? Is there anything that I should find enticing about it?

As I posted in another thread of yours, Revelation 21 is a good place to start. Obviously heaven isn't literally like that, but it gives us an idea of what heaven is like in easy to understand terms.

To answer your questions, I think we have free will in heaven as much as we have it here. There definitely pleasure depending on what you mean by it. It is obviously pleasurable to be very happy and joyful. There may be mysteries left to uncover.

Have you ever truly worshiped God? It sounds like you havn't from how you seem to dislike the idea of Gods rule. To complain about the eternal kingdom of heaven seems alot like complaining about a perfect society because you want change, even if that mean more people getting hurt.

The way I see it, heaven will be to our liking by definition. I don't know how to describe heaven literally, but the imagery in Revelation 21 can help us if we understand the meanings behind the description. For exmaple, saying there will be no sea doesn't necessarily mean there will only be land, but that there will be no evil or chaos.

 

[ericlawrence]

I don't suppose we could get a working definition of "Heaven" here with which to deal with could we?

There are a number of ideas about "Heaven" which, frankly, I find to be somewhat cartoony

or downright unpleasant, such as when Tertullian speaks of the joys of heaven involving Christians being able to see--and mock--the great agony and anguish of those who had in this life persecuted the Christians being tormented day and night in unending fire in hell.

"How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? Which rouses me to exultation?— as I see so many illustrious monarchs, whose reception into the heavens was publicly announced, groaning now in the lowest darkness with great Jove himself, and those, too, who bore witness of their exultation; governors of provinces, too, who persecuted the Christian name, in fires more fierce than those with which in the days of their pride they raged against the followers of Christ. What world's wise men besides, the very philosophers, in fact, who taught their followers that God had no concern in ought that is sublunary, and were wont to assure them that either they had no souls, or that they would never return to the bodies which at death they had left, now covered with shame before the poor deluded ones, as one fire consumes them! Poets also, trembling not before the judgment-seat of Rhadamanthus or Minos, but of the unexpected Christ! I shall have a better opportunity then of hearing the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; of viewing the play-actors, much more "dissolute" in the dissolving flame; of looking upon the charioteer, all glowing in his chariot of fire; of beholding the wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows;" - Tertullian De Spectaculis ch. 30

*Though it should be noted that Tertullian, at some point, came to reject mainstream Christianity at the time and joined the rather legalistic and conservative Montanist sect.

-CryptoLutheran

Yes! I wanted to mention this earlier but couldn't locate the reference.

 

[bling]

I'm not talking about sin. I'm simply asking if you would still have happiness in your life if it could be demonstrated that the afterlife did not exist.

There is no real “happiness” in this life??? There is real joy.

Yes. But it would immediately become something different if I was told I'm responsible for her death and must repent for it - that her death now binds me to an eternity of worship in which she'll never go away - and that it was I who fired the gun.

I am not saying you were responsible for your mother’s death that was her decision and the person pulling the trigger. BUT the bullet was meant for you and you actually deserved to be shoot, so in that since you can feel some responsibility. BUT there is absolutely nothing you can do or have to do. Let me give you another example in my own parable:
There is battle going on and you as an old man leave you post. The crime is punishable by 40 lashes or equivalent, but that will kill you. Your young innocent son offers to take your place and explains to the judge (general) that; 40 lashes on him will cause you tremendous pain and anguish. The judge (general) refuses because that would not be just to punish an innocent for the guilty (Whipping Boy). The innocent son then says: “I will go over to the enemy’s camp for my father’s sake and they will beat me and imprison me until the end of the war”. The Judge (general) says he cannot stop the young man from doing such a thing and knows this will really hurt the father when you find out, so the judge will not have to punish you father (justice has been done). You plead for the son’s return, but there is really no other way for you to be punished and live.

Well there wasn't any real "demise" of Satan, was there? He just went somewhere else. Apparently he had his reasons. I wont know unless if I meet god, but I might have my reasons as well.

There is a logical reason and need humans have for allowing satan to continue to exist. That need goes away when earth ceases.
I do not know either why you might sin.

Probably I wouldn't worship or otherwise be servile to the creator. Though I wouldn't really know unless if I was there. Let me put it this way though: Say I arrive at a party - a really great party - only to be told 20 minutes later, "You have to leave. The rest of the party is simply going to continue without you." This would be unpleasant. But however unpleasant that would be, it would be infinitely more desirable than arriving at the same party and then told, "You can't ever leave. You have to stay here forever and you have to do as I say." At that point, it wouldn't matter to me how great the party was. The entire experience would instantly be ruined for me.

You do not understand the Creator and He sent Jesus to show you what He is like (Love). Do you serve Him or does He serve you?
Jesus washed the feet of Judas???


God is totally selfless and does not need you to do anything, except do what you want to do. He wants to do stuff for you!!

This I find offensive. (Though I'm sure I've offended a few since I've been here.) By what authority do determine that your love weighs more than mine? How could you claim to know such a thing?

The variable is Love in heaven. God is totally Love so His Love is the greatest. Godly type Love grows with use, so people who have used their faith and Love while here on earth will have greater Love than those that have not.

 

[lone soldier]

Believe me - the way the vast majority of christians describe heaven... it doesn't sound like any bit of fun to me either. They describe this joyless, dead, quiet, boring, dull, mundane, ethereal state, with no genders, races (yeha, I've heard this before!! ), sex, food, free will, choices or rock music.

Sounds great, huh? :/

Most christians will offer the alternative - "It's better than hell." And that is true. But that's SOME argument, huh? Really now...

 

[razeontherock]

describe this joyless, dead, quiet, boring, dull, mundane, ethereal state, with no food, free will, choices or rock music.

There's no basis for these assertions, even though many make them.

 

[lone soldier]

There's no basis for these assertions, even though many make them.

Of course not.

There's no basis for heaven at all. We take it all on faith. Have YOU ever been there...? I know I haven't.

 

[razeontherock]

Of course not.

There's no basis for heaven at all. We take it all on faith. Have YOU ever been there...? I know I haven't.

There is basis for Faith. Upon that foundation, there is no basis for the assertions I quoted.

 

[lone soldier]

There is basis for Faith. Upon that foundation, there is no basis for the assertions I quoted.

And what is that...?