"Why should I let you into my heaven?"

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Sorry, context is king. Also, I provided cross references in post #95 to prove my case, as well.

You think your quotes prove your case. Yet they do no such thing; they show only that holy living is a must, not a cause of salvation. You still insist on salvation by works.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Then why the lambasting and antagonism against what I believe? Apparently you wish to continue to claim salvation by works.

Paul condemns Works ALONE Salvationism (of which I agree with).
Paul never condemns works of faith as a part of salvation process after we are saved by God’s grace.
You have to understand that Paul was fighting against those who thought they had to be initially circumcised in order to be saved. Circumcision was a part of the Old Law (the 613 laws of Moses), and not the New Law (given to us by Christ). Don’t believe me? Just read the context of Paul whenever he spoke of the “law” or “works” in a negative light. In most cases, he usually refers to the Old Law and or Law without any kind of grace (Law Alone Salvationism).

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?

Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

Why do you imagine it is, that anyone comes to Christ, unless God gives them to him? Think, man! Think!

You may paint my theology as OSAS, but I don't. I believe in salvation by grace through faith. I also believe in necessary holy living. Yet somehow you make it into a license to sin. It is not.

But your insistence on salvation by works is appalling.

A_Thinker · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Certainly Jesus identified Judas as a lost soul. He did so in John 6 ...

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

And certainly God also "lost" Lucifer.

But I think that you'd agree that these are extreme examples ...

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
So you continue to promote salvation by works. Yep. We are done. I will answer the last few I see you have posted and be done.

I promote only what the Bible says because I am for the Bible Alone as a part of the faith.

Carefully consider from the Bible that there are….

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Protestants seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked a Protestant Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.

Source:

Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Why do you imagine it is, that anyone comes to Christ, unless God gives them to him? Think, man! Think!

You may paint my theology as OSAS, but I don't. I believe in salvation by grace through faith. I also believe in necessary holy living. Yet somehow you make it into a license to sin. It is not.

But your insistence on salvation by works is appalling.

So you can be saved without doing any kind of works your entire life? Yes, or no?
Saying it is a symptom of being saved is not really what the Bible teaches.
It is also a backhanded way of teaching what I am saying so as not to make it appear like you are against the Bible’s teaching on holy living.
For what if the believer one day decides to no longer live holy?
What happens then? Were they simply self deceived about their experience with God?
Surely not.

Anyways, we are given a parable by the Lord Jesus Himself about being fruitful.
The unprofitable servant is said to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Note: They are called a servant, but they obviously did not perform. The whole point of the parable is to tell the reader to do something. This parable would be meaningless rubbish if a person is forced against their will by God in some kind of Unconditional Election to be a certain way beyond their will. Think, my friend.

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
You cannot be serious.
So you deny that MacArthur states that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved?
You deny MacArthur stating that a person can take the mark of the beast and be saved?
You deny MacArthur’s own statement that sin does not lead to death in his own study Bible?
You deny MacArthur’s statement in a video that states the same thing?
Does not sound like hyperbole to me. Sounds pretty clear that he teaches you can sin and still be saved (Which clearly runs contrary to holy living).

*I* believe an elect person can commit suicide, even after regeneration. God has already saved them, if they are elect. That is no license to commit suicide.
*I* believe that IF an elect person takes the mark of the beast, even after regeneration, God has already saved them. That is no license to take the mark of the beast. (Frankly, I doubt MacArthur believes the elect will very likely do such a thing, knowingly.)
*I* believe that IF an elect person sins, even after regeneration, 1 John 1:9 applies. Already been forgiven. Do you want to look up 1 Corinthians 3:15, and that, IN CONTEXT?

Are you still claiming to believe in salvation by works?

Clare73 · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
So holy living is a part of the salvation equation. So it’s not just grace alone.

It is as much a part of the "salvation equation" as is being alive.
You have to be alive to be saved, and
you have to be walking in obedience to be of the genuine faith which saves.
Faith's necessary works do not save, only the faith itself saves.

Side Note:

Oh, and I don’t think we are forced to be a certain way, either. God electing us or a one time experience with the Lord does not guarantee salvation. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Mark Quayle · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
So you can be saved without doing any kind of works your entire life? Yes, or no?
Saying it is a symptom of being saved is not really what the Bible teaches.
It is also a backhanded way of teaching what I am saying so as not to make it appear like you are against the Bible’s teaching on holy living.
For what if the believer one day decides to no longer live holy?
What happens then? Were they simply self deceived about their experience with God?
Surely not.

Anyways, we are given a parable by the Lord Jesus Himself about being fruitful.
The unprofitable servant is said to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Note: They are called a servant, but they obviously did not perform. The whole point of the parable is to tell the reader to do something. This parable would be meaningless rubbish if a person is forced against their will by God in some kind of Unconditional Election to be a certain way beyond their will. Think, my friend.

I have already made it clear works are necessary for a believer to do, but they DO NOT SAVE.

But until you will at least somehow show me that you do NOT believe in salvation by works, I have no inclination to answer anymore. If you preach/teach salvation by works, I have no use for continued discussion on the matter. It is heresy.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Then why the lambasting and antagonism against what I believe? Apparently you wish to continue to claim salvation by works.

What do you make of Titus 1:16?
Paul clearly is saying here that a person can deny God by a lack of works.
Is a person who denies God saved?
So works is tied into the salvation equation.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
It is grace alone which saves by genuine faith, which walks in obedience.
The obedience does not save, it merely evidences that the faith is genuine and how you know you are saved.
The works of faith do not save, only the faith itself saves.

Sorry, that is not what the Bible teaches.
If Noah did not build the boat and get on it, he would have perished with everyone else.
Think…. Parable of the Talents. What happened to the unprofitable servant? Were they saved by a belief alone in Jesus? Surely not.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I have already made it clear works are necessary for a believer to do, but they DO NOT SAVE.

Tell that to the unprofitable servant in Matthew 25:30.
Now, contrast the unprofitable servant with the profitable servant in Matthew 25:21.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Certainly Jesus identified Judas as a lost soul. He did so in John 6 ...

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

And certainly God also "lost" Lucifer.

But I think that you'd agree that these are extreme examples ...

Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25). In fact, Judas being among the twelve was at one point in time a sheep.

“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” (Matthew 10:5).
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” (Matthew 10:16).

In other words, at one point in time, Judas was once called a sheep.
Also, Judas betrayed Jesus. You cannot betray someone if you were never loyal to that person to begin with. Think.

Also, you run into the problem of the Lord our God choosing somebody evil to be one of His good representatives. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
It is as much a part of the "salvation equation" as is being alive.
You have to be alive to be saved, and
you have to be walking in obedience to be of the genuine faith which saves.
Faith's necessary works do not save, only the faith itself saves.

Your thinking in Calvinistic terms which simply does not exist in the Scriptures.
Just try reading 2 Thessalonians 2:10 again sometime really slowly.
The reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. The verse does not say that they perish because God did not Elect them. Also, there is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism. That is why Calvinism is simply not bibical by any sense of the word. Practically every page of your Bible screams against Calvinism at every turn. Please take no offense, but I believe Calvinism is something that is learned and then it is a belief system impressed upon Scripture.

Clare73 · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
No. It’s not by grace alone that you are saved. That’s not biblical.

Contrare!
It is by grace alone, through (genuine) faith, that we are saved, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Faith's works do not save, only faith itself saves and justifies.

Carefully read very slowly 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.

You are setting Scripure against itself.

Paul does not take away in 2 Thessalonians what he gives in Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28.

Side Note:

We are initially and foundationally saved by God’s grace,

That's what's been said all along. .why did you contest it?

but we also need to enter the Sanctification Process with the Holy Spirit so as to live a holy life, too. That is also a part of salvation, too.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

Clare73 said:
Contrare!
It is by grace alone, through (genuine) faith, that we are saved, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Faith's works do not save, only faith itself saves and justifies.
You are setting Scripure against itself.

Again, this is talking about “Initial Salvation.”
How many times have you been quickened? Just one time. (See: Ephesians 2:1).
How many times did you receive a gift? Just one time. (See: Ephesians 2:8).
A one time event suggests something that initial.

You said:
Paul does not take away in 2 Thessalonians what he gives in Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says in verse 14 that the gospel calls us.
The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
So this call is after we are saved by the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
This call is described to us in verse 13.
Verse 13 says that God has chosen us to Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth.
This Sanctification of the Spirit is living holy because verse 12 gives us the polar opposite of what is stated in verse 13.
Verse 16-17 talks about faith (belief), and works.
So Sanctification (verse 13) is talking about living holy and being fruitful by the working of the Holy Spirit.

I mean, do you not know that the reason why Christ died for us (or gave Himself for us)?

“…even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” (Ephesians 5:25-27).

A_Thinker · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25). In fact, Judas being among the twelve was at one point in time a sheep.

“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” (Matthew 10:5).
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” (Matthew 10:16).

In other words, at one point in time, Judas was once called a sheep.
Also, Judas betrayed Jesus. You cannot betray someone if you were never loyal to that person to begin with. Think.

Also, you run into the problem of the Lord our God choosing somebody evil to be one of His good representatives. What fellowship does light have with darkness?

Jesus identified Judas ... as a devil ...

Clare73 · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Your thinking in Calvinistic terms which simply does not exist in the Scriptures.

Address the texts head on, and do not divert to some extraneous subject.

Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 22, 2021

A_Thinker said:
Jesus identified Judas ... as a devil ...

But this was at later point in time.
This does not undo the Messianic prophecy of Jesus calling Judas as his familiar friend (Psalms 41:9).
This does not undo Jesus calling Judas as one of his sheep in Matthew 10:16 (cf. Matthew 10:5).

Clare73 · Oct 22, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Again, this is talking about “Initial Salvation.”

You are repeating what has been stated to you multiple times.

"Why should I let you into my heaven?"

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Blood-bought

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Blood-bought

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Blood-bought

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Blood-bought

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency