Why should I believe?

[WonderingThings]

b/c you go to hell if you don't. that is the only reason to do so.

So if I don't believe in hell then I'm ok not to believe?

 

[Tnmusicman]

But if "sin" is defined as disobeying god's commandments, then wouldn't you have to believe in god before you can be convicted of your sins?

Of course not. You know when you do something that's wrong. I'm not one of the Christians that holds to the "atheists have no morality" position so by addressing that you potentially have a moral code (I say potential because I don't know you and therefore have no idea what you are like) then you would "know" when you've violated that code. That feeling you get inside when you've violated your code of ethics is what christians call conviction.

 

[Tnmusicman]

...

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why should I believe there is a god? Or even, why the christian god specifically?

I will ask follow up questions to your responses, but I will do my best not to cross the line into debate.

My immediate response would probably be, "because it's true". But that's not really the answer to the sort of question you're after; rather you're interested in evidence, proof, of the existence of deity.

To which I usually reply: I don't believe there is any proof or evidence; or at least none that satisfies reason.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

b/c you go to hell if you don't. that is the only reason to do so.

Pardon?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tnmusicman]

b/c you go to hell if you don't. that is the only reason to do so.

You think that's the only reason to believe in God?

 

[WonderingThings]

Of course not. You know when you do something that's wrong. I'm not one of the Christians that holds to the "atheists have no morality" position so by addressing that you potentially have a moral code (I say potential because I don't know you and therefore have no idea what you are like) then you would "know" when you've violated that code. That feeling you get inside when you've violated your code of ethics is what christians call conviction.

It's called guilt, but what does that have to do with being convicted of sin? I'm not seeing the connection here, sorry.

 

[WonderingThings]

My immediate response would probably be, "because it's true".

Which of course wouldn't be a reason, it would just be restating what it is I want a reason to believe.

But that's not really the answer to the sort of question you're after; rather you're interested in evidence, proof, of the existence of deity.

I'm open to anything here.

To which I usually reply: I don't believe there is any proof or evidence; or at least none that satisfies reason.

So then what are the reasons other people believe? Sorry if I twist your words a bit here, but if it's not something rooted in reality and it's not reasonable, then why does anyone believe it?

 

[bling]

I am happy, and I think you're being sarcastic lol

In my other discussions with atheist/agnostics, if they are “happy” with their life there is nothing I can say to convince them to change. I do witness How God has changed my life and down the road when they run into life's tragedies we have had further discussions, but why change if you are happy?

Christ can to help the hurting and not convince the happy to change, but did point out they were really not making God happy (like they were thinking they were doing).

God allows the world to be a very unhappy place, so we will seek His help, so why are you happy in a world of tragedies?

 

[WonderingThings]

In my other discussions with atheist/agnostics, if they are “happy” with their life there is nothing I can say to convince them to change. I do witness How God has changed my life and down the road when they run into life's tragedies we have had further discussions, but why change if you are happy?

Christ can to help the hurting and not convince the happy to change, but did point out they were really not making God happy (like they were thinking they were doing).

God allows the world to be a very unhappy place, so we will seek His help, so why are you happy in a world of tragedies?

I have a good job, great wife, adorable kids, good friends. It's not like everything's perfect, but I'm happy with life.

Let's assume some terrible tragedy came my way. Why would that make me believe in god as you have implied it would? Or rather, why would it make me want to believe in god.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Which of course wouldn't be a reason, it would just be restating what it is I want a reason to believe.

Well my thinking here was something like this:

Why should I believe the earth is round? A rather obvious answer would be, "because it's round". Hence my statement there.

I'm open to anything here.

So then what are the reasons other people believe? Sorry if I twist your words a bit here, but if it's not something rooted in reality and it's not reasonable, then why does anyone believe it?

Note that I didn't say anything about not being real or rooted in reality.

I don't believe one can demonstrate, either through empirical demonstration or rational argumentation, the existence of the God Christians believe in. That doesn't mean I don't think He's real. I most definitely believe God is real. I just don't think God is demonstrable, I don't believe the existence of God can be verified or falsified. As such, it can be said that Christian faith is in many ways quite unreasonable.

I don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God because it can be demonstrated empirically or rationally, but because of faith.

As such, I can't provide demonstrable proof, as I don't have any to provide you. But neither do I try and convince atheists to become theists. I don't believe reason can get us from A to B in this area.

Speaking more personally, I am drawn and compelled by the Jesus I encounter in the Gospels, the Jesus confessed by the Christian Church. It's not a very rational nor a very reasonable thing. I tend to think of it in the Kierkegaardian terms of a leap to faith. It's a bold leap into the discomforting unknown.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[WonderingThings]

Well my thinking here was something like this:

Why should I believe the earth is round? A rather obvious answer would be, "because it's round". Hence my statement there.

And again, that's not a reason to accept that it's round, there are other reasons we can give that actually give someone a reason to accept that the earth is round (measurments etc). But anyways...

Note that I didn't say anything about not being real or rooted in reality.

If it's not demonstrable, then in what way is it real? What does it mean for something to be real if you can't demonstrate it's existence?

I don't believe one can demonstrate, either through empirical demonstration or rational argumentation, the existence of the God Christians believe in. That doesn't mean I don't think He's real. I most definitely believe God is real. I just don't think God is demonstrable, I don't believe the existence of God can be verified or falsified. As such, it can be said that Christian faith is in many ways quite unreasonable.

I don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God because it can be demonstrated empirically or rationally, but because of faith.

At some point in your life you chose to have faith in something unverifiable and unreasonable (your words), what made you choose to have faith? (Which you kindof answer in the next part below)

Speaking more personally, I am drawn and compelled by the Jesus I encounter in the Gospels, the Jesus confessed by the Christian Church. It's not a very rational nor a very reasonable thing. I tend to think of it in the Kierkegaardian terms of a leap to faith. It's a bold leap into the discomforting unknown.

What made you drawn to it?

 

[ViaCrucis]

And again, that's not a reason to accept that it's round, there are other reasons we can give that actually give someone a reason to accept that the earth is round (measurments etc). But anyways...

If it's not demonstrable, then in what way is it real? What does it mean for something to be real if you can't demonstrate it's existence?

For something to actually exist it simply has to exist; in order to prove that it exists requires the ability to demonstrate that it exists. A thing's objective existence isn't contingent on it being demonstrable. I assume that we won't necessarily be in agreement in this line of thinking anytime soon, and will probably end up having to agree to disagree.

At some point in your life you chose to have faith in something unverifiable and unreasonable (your words), what made you choose to have faith? (Which you kindof answer in the next part below)

What made you drawn to it?

I would probably say something along the lines of the force of power in the words of Jesus as I read them. I want to believe in this Jesus, and I want to trust in what He says. I certainly wouldn't be able to isolate some discernible cause and effect. It's really more of a can't-quite-put-my-finger-on-it sort of thing, at least where I am presently in my life.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tnmusicman]

It's called guilt, but what does that have to do with being convc sin? I'm not seeing the connection here, sorry.

I think you may be confusing what conviction means. Christian conviction is what we feel inside when we engage in sinful activity (generally repeated) and feel guilty about it. There can be other manifestations like when you commit adultery and all of a sudden break out in tears. Thats not a normal response (at least during the sex act). We say that's Christ convicting us of our sin.
If we use the term convict correctly, (at least how christians define convict,in this sense ) we use it to describe the work of our conscience in making personal decisions of right and wrong in areas not specifically detailed in scripture.The Holy Spirit works to convict us to push away from the ensnarement of sin and towards God in freedom.
I hope this clarifies it better.

 

[Joshua260]

I apologize for not understanding your question correctly at first. You keep changing your focus in this thread, and it makes it difficult to answer you. For instance, [FONT=&quot]you just asked another responder "Why would that make me believe in god as you have implied it would? Or rather, why would it make me want to believe in god". Those are two different types of questions. Some of us trying to answer you thought you were asking
"[/FONT]Why should(what is the gains or losses) I believe there is a god? Or even, why the christian god specifically?"
You can see that they thought this when you read answers like "because you won't go to hell" and such. So, I was actually trying to give you a direct answer when I said:
________________________
[FONT=&quot]Well, we Christians believe that 1) there is a god, 2) that there is an absolute morality, 3) that we have fallen short of that required moral standard, and 4) it is good to dwell with God and so we need to go through a reconciliation process (because perfection is required in order to dwell with God). That reconciliation act is accomplished when you put your faith in the salvation of Jesus Christ.

So, number 4 is the answer to your question of "why should you"...because it is *good* (I would say awesome!) to dwell with God. Jesus said that he has come to give us life, and life more abundantly (John 10:10). Speaking for myself, as a former agnostic/atheist for almost forty years, I can tell you that becoming a Christian was the best thing that has ever happened in my life...bar none!"[/FONT]
___________________________________
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But, I now realize that you are actually asking members to provide you with proof of the Christian God. There is abundant proof out there to support our belief in the Christian God. That's what apologetics is all about. You can find many books on it at any book store. However, even Billy Graham has said numerous times that you cannot put God in a test tube. You will not be able to "measure" the supernatural. With all respect to you, your unbelief is kind of like the people who were not convinced that OJ Simpson did not kill his wife because they didn't actually see it happen in front of them---even though there was plenty of blood dna evidence all over the place.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you seriously desire evidence, there are books by Dr. WIlliam Lane Craig (which are OK), but I think Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ is better. Many Christians would tell you that the best evidence they have is what Jesus has done in their lives, but I'm sure you would not accept that. So for you, if you are serious about looking at the evidence, I recommend reading Stobel's book, but even better than that is actually reading the bible, like Matthew or John and seeing how Jesus fulfilled all of the prophecies he did---to me that is the best evidence for a skeptic (like I was for most of my life!!). And of course you will question the authority of the bible...I know that. That's why I also recommended Strobel's book, which even though I've heard people talk bad about him, the evidence is not his own. Many scholars have written on the same topics he discusses, but he collects it all into one book for you. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sorry so long...but I am actually trying to help answer your question.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[WonderingThings]

For something to actually exist it simply has to exist; in order to prove that it exists requires the ability to demonstrate that it exists. A thing's objective existence isn't contingent on it being demonstrable. I assume that we won't necessarily be in agreement in this line of thinking anytime soon, and will probably end up having to agree to disagree.

This brings me to my deeper question. If something doesn't interact with the world in a detectable way then how is it different from something that doesn't exist?

I would probably say something along the lines of the force of power in the words of Jesus as I read them. I want to believe in this Jesus, and I want to trust in what He says. I certainly wouldn't be able to isolate some discernible cause and effect. It's really more of a can't-quite-put-my-finger-on-it sort of thing, at least where I am presently in my life.

-CryptoLutheran

Fair enough, sounds like an honest answer.

 

[WonderingThings]

I think you may be confusing what conviction means. Christian conviction is what we feel inside when we engage in sinful activity (generally repeated) and feel guilty about it. There can be other manifestations like when you commit adultery and all of a sudden break out in tears. Thats not a normal response (at least during the sex act). We say that's Christ convicting us of our sin.
If we use the term convict correctly, (at least how christians define convict,in this sense ) we use it to describe the work of our conscience in making personal decisions of right and wrong in areas not specifically detailed in scripture.The Holy Spirit works to convict us to push away from the ensnarement of sin and towards God in freedom.
I hope this clarifies it better.

Maybe I am confusing definitions because I'm still not sure what you mean. We know that we do things that are wrong, but I'm just not seeing the leap as to how you get to "therefore we know we are sinners and need god".

 

[WonderingThings]

I apologize for not understanding your question correctly at first. You keep changing your focus in this thread, and it makes it difficult to answer you.

Sorry if it seems that way. I shift my focus based entirely on the responses that I get. I have no agenda here, just replying to what is said to me.

For instance, [FONT=&quot]you just asked another responder "Why would that make me believe in god as you have implied it would? Or rather, why would it make me want to believe in god". Those are two different types of questions. Some of us trying to answer you thought you were asking[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]Why should(what is the gains or losses) I believe there is a god? Or even, why the christian god specifically?"

Interesting, I hadn't even though of the OP as meaning the "gains and losses" aspect. Good to know it came across that way, I hadn't considered that in the OP.

[FONT=&quot]I've read many apologetics books, including ones that you mentioned. I found Strobel's books to be the most misinformed. If there is a particular point in any of those books you would like to bring up that would be great, then we can discuss it and you may be able to explain it even better to me than the book did.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

Sorry so long...but I am actually trying to help answer your question.

[/FONT]No problem, that's great!

 

[Joshua260]

Good evening WT...and thanks for letting me apologize for my earlier misunderstanding.

I'm not sure if this is allowed, but I would like to ask *you* something because your response really throws me off guard. You say that you have read many apologetics books and found Strobel's to be the most misinformed. That really amazes me. I'm not trying to start a debate...I'm just really curious about the fact that you sound like you've read a lot about why we believe(although I noticed you didn't mention the bible), but yet nothing seems to satisfy your questions. Would you do me the favor of expanding on what you said by telling me what you thought was "misinformed" in Strobel's books? That would be easier for discussion. Thanks in advance!

 

[bling]

I have a good job, great wife, adorable kids, good friends. It's not like everything's perfect, but I'm happy with life.

Let's assume some terrible tragedy came my way. Why would that make me believe in god as you have implied it would? Or rather, why would it make me want to believe in god.

If you live long enough you will experience tragedy.

Tragedies do not make you believe in God, but either soften or harden your heart toward the good news message depending on how you handle the tragedy.

Hopefully you have been around people that have ceased the opportunity tragedies provide to: extend, experience, give, show, receive and/or grow Godly type Love.

If you like what you see you might seek this Love for yourself. The Christian God is this Love so seeking that Love is seeking God.