aeroz19 said:In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.
Why continue?!
Greetings, aeroz19,aeroz19 said:Wait...why is that? Did Archimedes invent Calculus and then the church burned it or something? That doesn't sound right at all...
Hungry Hungry Hippo said:I'm glad they have the will power to take the crevolution debate seriously, I can't.
FlameProofHeretic said:unfortunately the implications for the USA are serious.
Sinai said:You may wish to rethink and reword this portion of your short essay, as it is an oversimplification. Although there may be disturbing aspects of both groups of fundamentalists, political power is not the "only difference between the fundamentalists in America and the fundamentalists in the middle east." Yes, the First Amendment's establishment clause and its free exercise clause are key components in any evaluation of the differences between the cultures in America and in the Middle East--but that does not necessarily mean that "Unless we preserve the separation of church and state we will eventually become the same way" as the Taliban or other similar examples of Middle East fundamentalism.
I have known and worked with fundamentalists from both the United States and from the Middle East. I have studied fundamentalism in both areas, and have helped to mediate disputes to which fundamentalists were parties. I respectfully suggest that those who think that political power is the only difference between Christian fundamentalists in America and Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East should probably continue studying both concepts. Again, the comment to which I was responding was very much an oversimplification.aeroz19 said:How familiar are you with fundamentalism in the United States?Sinai said:You may wish to rethink and reword this portion of your short essay, as it is an oversimplification. Although there may be disturbing aspects of both groups of fundamentalists, political power is not the "only difference between the fundamentalists in America and the fundamentalists in the middle east." Yes, the First Amendment's establishment clause and its free exercise clause are key components in any evaluation of the differences between the cultures in America and in the Middle East--but that does not necessarily mean that "Unless we preserve the separation of church and state we will eventually become the same way" as the Taliban or other similar examples of Middle East fundamentalism.
you probably see is silly because if you really believe in humanism or as an atheist then the CvsE debate is silly and pointless. If this life is all there is then it make no difference what you believe since in 100 years from now noone will care what we think while there will be a new generation debating in more pointless debates.aeroz19 said:In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.
Why continue?!
Hungry Hungry Hippo said:I just swing by here every now and then to joke around or get a good laugh. There are people here who are much more patient and learned on the topic than myself. I'm glad they have the will power to take the crevolution debate seriously, I can't.
Smidlee said:you probably see is silly because if you really believe in humanism or as an atheist then the CvsE debate is silly and pointless. If this life is all there is then it make no difference what you believe since in 100 years from now noone will care what we think while there will be a new generation debating in more pointless debates.
If you ever studied Ecclesisates you know it deals with this issue as death eventually puts everything into perspective. While Solomon realize that wisdom is important he also realize that under the sun a wise man dies just like a fool.
Ecc 1:16 "for there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool foe ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. and how dieth the wise man? as the fool."
Ecc 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion." Also it could be said it better to be a living fool is better than a dead wise man.
In Ecclesiastes Solomon (which was never a spiritual gaint like his father David) was trying to answer the question in the first three verses "What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?" Solomon had great wisdom/knowledge ,wealth, and power to live it up down here on earth which he records his results in Ecc,
So why do some continue? the answer is they can convert people like you as you see this is their religion. Of course they will deny this but look how strongly they preach this stuff even though a lot here are atheist. Also it human nature to think the more people agrees with your view the more you are right.
The bottom line is rather you are a christian or a atheist the most important thing in this life is people. Don't waste your time arguing with your father especially as an atheist but instead continue to enjoy which is probably the best friends you have on this earth; your parents. They will not always be around.While I still have both of mine but realize they are up there in years and they have more health problems.
As a unbeliever view ,If your dad is right atleast you know he loves God while if you are right then what difference does it make?
Who said atheists believe that life is all there is. With a simple remark you show how you cast all non-believers in a selfish light. Sometimes the only difference between you and an atheist is the belief in your brand of GOD. Meanwhile, atheists are people just like you. We want to have a world free of people killing innocent people in the name of god. We want to make sure our children are not brainwashed into trusting faith over reason. We would like to make the world a better place for the next generation. We are not evil. We are not amoral. We seek the truth and wonder at the same mysteries that have yet to be solved. The only difference is that we dont take the unknown at put a GOD label on it.Smidlee said:If this life is all there is then it make no difference what you believe since in 100 years from now noone will care what we think while there will be a new generation debating in more pointless debates.
Like Ive said before, Im usually happy to live and let live. When theists start to push their beliefs on the public is where I draw the line. How you can call atheism a religion is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is to tap into some old propaganda about your GOD being the only true god and suggest that atheists are just another religion trying to brainwash people like yours. Its funny how you use religion in this case as an insult to atheists. The only thing we preach is the truth. All the fundamentalist mind control propaganda melts away in the light of truth. After this, the person is free to make their own decision. Some, like grmorton, will continue to be a theist. People like that are at least reasonable in their beliefs. Others will choose not to worship any deity. The important thing is that they are not brainwashed into thinking like you for no reason.Smidlee said:So why do some continue? the answer is they can convert people like you as you see this is their religion. Of course they will deny this but look how strongly they preach this stuff even though a lot here are atheist. Also it human nature to think the more people agrees with your view the more you are right.
Im surprised that youre not Jewish. The last time I saw a guilt trip like this was from my brother-in-laws mother. People should treat others with respect when they deserve it. I have a sneaky suspicion any friction in their relationship comes from the theistic side railing to keep their sheep from straying from the flock. I suggest that its more important to respect others beliefs and keep yours to yourself. If someone has thoughtfully weighed the evidence and come to a conclusion then your particular brand of faith based belief should not be crammed down that persons throat atheist, Buddhist, humanist, or whatever. The bottom line is that everyone is entitled to hold their belief without pushing it on someone else.Smidlee said:The bottom line is rather you are a christian or a atheist the most important thing in this life is people. Don't waste your time arguing with your father especially as an atheist but instead continue to enjoy which is probably the best friends you have on this earth; your parents. They will not always be around.While I still have both of mine but realize they are up there in years and they have more health problems.
I dislike this reasoning. Its really what the theistic beliefs of all my religious friends come down to. Believe like me because, hey, what have you got to lose? Some call this pascals wager, I call it weasely. Maybe she doesnt want to see the people she loves brainwashed and taken advantage of. If they understand that the YEC beliefs are nonsense and understand the truth but still choose to believe in god then so be it. But nobody should die ignorant, afraid, and not in control of their own mind.Smidlee said:As a unbeliever view ,If your dad is right atleast you know he loves God while if you are right then what difference does it make?
to win what? a argument?freedomfighter said:all that is required for ignorance to win is for wise men(women) to say nothing.
Smart people invented our most power weapons like Nukes. So education/science has just as much of impact on death,war and destruction as any known religion.(of course this doesn't mean neither science or religion is always evil) Yet again anti-religion itself is a religious view.i think those who can help make sure we dont fall into the trap of religious domination in this country have a duty to do so. religious superstition will eventually be educated out of most people but without smart people making their voices heard education could be turned back to the control of religious dogma.
Ignorance is bliss in your opinion? I'd say that an informed position is always the better position.Smidlee said:to win what? a argument?
It doesn't have the same impact. Wars are waged because of power struggles, most often between ideologies. Scientific progress influences how these wars are fought, not whether they are fought.Smart people invented our most power weapons like Nukes. So education/science has just as much of impact on death,war and destruction as any known religion.(of course this doesn't mean neither science or religion is always evil) Yet again anti-religion itself is a religious view.
Smidlee said:to win what? a argument?
.
I admit this is the first I heard of an atheist believing in a afterlife.AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:Who said atheists believe that life is all there is. With a simple remark you show how you cast all non-believers in a selfish light. Sometimes the only difference between you and an atheist is the belief in your brand of GOD.
if you believe that atheist are just like me then why do you later agrue againest the idea the atheist are religious. So my claim was that yes atheist are just like theist just preach a difference message.Meanwhile, atheists are people just like you.
what difference who's name someone kills in; God or not , it human nature to kill and war.We want to have a world free of people killing innocent people in the name of god.
human reasoning is more powerful to brainwash people than faith. Even as a christian it a lot easier to live by reasoning than by faith. It was human reasoing which cause Hitler (as with any serial killer)to justify killing millions of innocent people. Again you are claim me and you are not realy that different yet now you will try to claim you are not religious in your view in truth. (your truth is materialism right?)We want to make sure our children are not brainwashed into trusting faith over reason. We would like to make the world a better place for the next generation. We are not evil. We are not amoral. We seek the truth and wonder at the same mysteries that have yet to be solved. The only difference is that we dont take the unknown at put a GOD label on it.
so you really are not happy with "to live and let live". Noone who really honest with themselves are not happy with this which is why we draw the line.Like Ive said before, Im usually happy to live and let live. When theists start to push their beliefs on the public is where I draw the line.
remember we are really the same with different views on what is truth. I do admit I want to see people get saved and delivered from your so called truth and come to the knowledge of Christ. The only reason I can think of is to tap into some old propaganda about your GOD being the only true god and suggest that atheists are just another religion trying to brainwash people like yours. Its funny how you use religion in this case as an insult to atheists. The only thing we preach is the truth. [/QUOTE] christians claim exact the same ,we preach the "truth". Yet if you are preaching the truth then what difference does it make. we preach so people can be saved for we believe in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection than it really doesn't matter what you believe as long as it's makes you happy.How you can call atheism a religion is beyond me.
I'm not no politician so I couldn't brainwash anyone. of course you see us as brainwash but to be honest I see you this way. The real question what is truth? I could easily replace the word fundmentalist with evolutionist here and would fit just the same.All the fundamentalist mind control propaganda melts away in the light of truth. After this, the person is free to make their own decision. Some, like grmorton, will continue to be a theist. People like that are at least reasonable in their beliefs. Others will choose not to worship any deity. The important thing is that they are not brainwashed into thinking like you for no reason.
It does take two to argue right? (Areo admitted she was arguing with her father. And when you make a agrument you are express your view or as you say pushing your views. While My dad and I disagree on a lot of issue yet we don't argue on these since our relationship is more important then any small disagreement. If we did get in an arguement this is two people forcefully expressing their views.The bottom line is that everyone is entitled to hold their belief without pushing it on someone else.
explain to me what her father has to lose in believing and trusting God. Aeros is old enough to stand on her own. In her view her father has nothing to lose in following God.I dislike this reasoning. Its really what the theistic beliefs of all my religious friends come down to. Believe like me because, hey, what have you got to lose?
So ? What difference what you call it, her father probably is happy being a christian so what to be gain trying to convert him? Of course her father will be very disappoint she reject God for he want to best for children. if she really believe that there is no god she does have something to lose in trying to debate her father , they relationship . Obviously she has made up her mind and realize it not good to continue debating her father. while getting into worthless debate online is one thing, IRL there not much value be just to argue.Some call this pascals wager, I call it weasely.
Again we battle because of the resurrection , without resurrection even religion is totally worthless since the mind of man will never be conquered , it's like the war on drugs and terrorism. Again at the end a wise man dies as a fool so the only knowledge even worth having is just what you need to live another day.freedomfighter said:the battle for the mind of man. religion after all is a battle for the mind of man.
well then you have a problem because literal resurrection is a fable.Smidlee said:Again we battle because of the resurrection , without resurrection even religion is totally worthless since the mind of man will never be conquered , it's like the war on drugs and terrorism. Again at the end a wise man dies as a fool so the only knowledge even worth having is just what you need to live another day.
Which god? You wrongly assume there are only two choices from which to pick; God or no God. There are dozens, (possibly hundreds), of gods to choose from. Many of them declare they are the one and only god and that worshippers must have no other god. In not picking any one of them the risk is negligibly worse than choosing any particular one. Atheism isn't established based on statistical odds of picking the "right god". It's based on examination of the evidence for or against the existence of any god.Smidlee said:explain to me what her father has to lose in believing and trusting God. Aeros is old enough to stand on her own. In her view her father has nothing to lose in following God.
Probably because youve never taken the time to get to know an atheist and explore their reasoning. You are too busy generalizing about them and labeling them as an enemy.Smidlee said:I admit this is the first I heard of an atheist believing in a afterlife.
Because last time I checked atheism was almost the antithesis of religious (unless you count Satanism).Smidlee said:if you believe that atheist are just like me then why do you later agrue againest the idea the atheist are religious.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language said:re·li·gious adj.: Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.
Not really, the only thing I see atheists asserting is conclusions that follow empirical evidence.Smidlee said:So my claim was that yes atheist are just like theist just preach a difference message.
The only problem is that, like the fundamentalists in the middle east, religion is a self righteous excuse for murdering innocent people. Its not for self preservation or protection of citizens. Its simply for protection of their beliefs.Smidlee said:what difference who's name someone kills in; God or not , it human nature to kill and war.
Encouraging someone to reason is the opposite of brainwashing.Smidlee said:human reasoning is more powerful to brainwash people than faith.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language said:brain·wash·ing n.: Intensive, forcible indoctrination, usually political or religious, aimed at destroying a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with an alternative set of fixed beliefs.
This doesnt even make sense. Reasoning actually requires critical thought. Faith requires nothing but belief.Smidlee said:Even as a christian it a lot easier to live by reasoning than by faith.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language said:rea·son·ing v. intr.: To use the faculty of reason; think logically.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language said:Faith n.: Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence
Im not sure you want to go down this road. Ive seen people talk of Hitlers Christian influences. At any rate, perverting reason to justify an atrocity does not mean reasoning is bad or evil. Reason by itself is benign. Some people commit arson too, it doesnt mean fire is bad or evil.Smidlee said:It was human reasoing which cause Hitler (as with any serial killer)to justify killing millions of innocent people.
See above for why I am not religious. No, I simply do not claim to know anything without empirical evidence I can review and come to my own conclusions on. I do not assert that materialism is the only possibility. Many atheists are not materialistic atheists.Smidlee said:Again you are claim me and you are not realy that different yet now you will try to claim you are not religious in your view in truth. (your truth is materialism right?)
Its the let live part that is the problem. If a theist wants to push religion on the public then they are not simply letting others live. They are interfering with other people and pushing their religious propaganda on the public. This can not be allowed.Smidlee said:so you really are not happy with "to live and let live". Noone who really honest with themselves are not happy with this which is why we draw the line.
You use the word truth too loosely. All you have is a faith based belief that you are pitting against empirical knowledge. The odds are that the truth will lie with the substantiated claims and not blind faith.Smidlee said:remember we are really the same with different views on what is truth.
This is why people like me cant live and let live. Its because you dont let people live. You arent evangelizing truth. You are trying to get people to believe like you believe on faith alone. If they dont believe like you that is their choice and they should be left alone.Smidlee said:I do admit I want to see people get saved and delivered from your so called truth and come to the knowledge of Christ.
The difference is substantiation. Your truth is based on faith. Our truth is based on empirical evidence. We value reason and critical thinking over faith and propaganda.Smidlee said:christians claim exact the same ,we preach the "truth". Yet if you are preaching the truth then what difference does it make.
The resurrection is just another unsubstantiated belief. You can not push unfounded belief on top of unfounded belief and justify it with faith and call it truth.Smidlee said:we preach so people can be saved for we believe in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection than it really doesn't matter what you believe as long as it's makes you happy.
To be honest, I dont even think most churches even know they are employing mind control techniques any more. They are just methods handed down through the ages that get them the most followers. Make no mistake though, the techniques employed by most if not all churches have their roots in mind control. Encouraging some to think for themselves is the opposite of mind control.Smidlee said:I'm not no politician so I couldn't brainwash anyone. of course you see us as brainwash but to be honest I see you this way.
No it wouldnt, and Ive already explained why.Smidlee said:The real question what is truth? I could easily replace the word fundmentalist with evolutionist here and would fit just the same.
Not necessarily, you are describing more of a debate. All an argument needs is one instigator trying to push their view on another.Smidlee said:It does take two to argue right? (Areo admitted she was arguing with her father. And when you make a agrument you are express your view or as you say pushing your views.
If his belief in god is not based on his own critical thinking then he has lost control of his own mind.Smidlee said:While My dad and I disagree on a lot of issue yet we don't argue on these since our relationship is more important then any small disagreement. If we did get in an arguement this is two people forcefully expressing their views. explain to me what her father has to lose in believing and trusting God.
I never said he should be converted. The important thing is that he come to his own beliefs based on his own reasoning and not by brainwashing.Smidlee said:Aeros is old enough to stand on her own. In her view her father has nothing to lose in following God. So ? What difference what you call it, her father probably is happy being a christian so what to be gain trying to convert him?
I can not speak for her, I am simply guessing that its not her trying to do the converting.Smidlee said:Of course her father will be very disappoint she reject God for he want to best for children. if she really believe that there is no god she does have something to lose in trying to debate her father , they relationship.
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