Why should any more time be spent here?

Dr.GH

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Another reason that I have for posting to message boards re:evo/creato is thta I am trying to find better ways to present scientific evidence to the more "difficult" members of our society.

I was brought into this issue when I was a director of a small natural history museum. We would have frequent visitors with ideas that seemed so weird that I didn't know what to say.
 
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A4C

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Beastt said:
My first shot at this was a bit abrupt so I'm starting over.

There are a great number of biblical claims which science has shown simply aren't true. But since this is Creation and Evolution, perhaps that's the best place to start. The Bible clearly has man springing up, fully formed from some dust and the breath of God. Science can trace our origins back through other primates and show continuing evidence through less complex forms of animal life. Even most Christians seem to accept evolution despite the account in the Bible. But in order to accept evolution and not discard the Bible, they have adopted interpretive readings of some biblical accounts in order to allow the Bible to appear to align more properly with science.

Another example which follows the Creation and Evolution theme is the Bible's account of a global flood, when indeed, science has shown that no such global flood ever occurred.

As to the prophecy some like to present, the Bible is far from the only religious book with credible claims to accurate prophecy. Should we assume that every religious book which can demonstrate accurate prophecy is therefore the word of God? If so, what are we to believe when we find these books to be in disagreement?
Youn cannot put science up as the ultimate of truth. Particularly in the area of "origins" it has constantly been found to be in error so has has lost all credability in this area as far as I and a great many others are concerned.
You will have to better than say that the Bible is in error because science says so
 
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And-U-Say

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aeroz19 said:
In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.

Why continue?!

Today, I go through the different threads and I ask myself the same thing. Over and over you explain the same things to these poeple, but they don't get it. Its not a matter of being unable to comprehend, its an unwillingness to comprehend. A willfull ignorance. And they are proud of it.

Its like some average joe coming off the street into a stadium where a professional major league baseball practice is being held. They swagger up and comment on how the players really don't know how to pitch, how to throw, how to catch, etc. They outline their big plan on how to play baseball, and they don't even know the rules nontheless how to actually play the game. Even after they have been shown their ineptitude in the game, they shuffle off the field, a smile on their face, smug in the opinion that they know better and told off those insufferable major league players. Hah!

It's like that. A desire for ignorance is something I just can't fathom.

At one time I thought progress might be possible, but maybe it isn't. Not any real progress. As Mark Twain said: "You can't reason someone out of something they haven't been reasoned into." And reason plays no roll with these people. I remember a line from the Terminator 2 movie. The young John Connor tells the Terminator:"We aren't going to make it, are we. As people I mean." I have a hard time dissagreeing. They say art reflects reality.

(sigh)
 
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A4C

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Its like some average joe coming off the street into a stadium where a professional major league baseball practice is being held. They swagger up and comment on how the players really don't know how to pitch, how to throw, how to catch, etc. They outline their big plan on how to play baseball, and they don't even know the rules nontheless how to actually play the game. Even after they have been shown their ineptitude in the game, they shuffle off the field, a smile on their face, smug in the opnion that they know better and told off those insufferable major league players. Hah!
Hey I like your analogy based on the fact that this is "OUR PLAYING FIELD and you are the joe who thinks you can tell US how to play ball. Just keep an eye on the series and find out who wins. eh?
 
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caravelair

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A4C said:
Youn cannot put science up as the ultimate of truth.

science does not claim to be ultimate or absolute. science only tells us what is LIKELY to be correct. and the more evidence we have, the more likely our idea is to be correct. as far as i know, there has been no widely accepted scientific theory in the last 200 years that has turned out to be totally wrong. if you can think of an example, i'd like to hear it.

Particularly in the area of "origins" it has constantly been found to be in error so has has lost all credability in this area as far as I and a great many others are concerned.

how is "origins" an area of science? and ow has science been wrong in this area? please show me an example.
 
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Juvenal

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A4C said:
You cannot put science up as the ultimate of truth. Particularly in the area of "origins" it has constantly been found to be in error so has lost all credibility in this area as far as I and a great many others are concerned. You will have to better than say that the Bible is in error because science says so.
Greetings, A4C,

Ahh, if only ...

The search for truth is as old as curiousity, and as futile it seems from time to time. The text of your holy book speaks of looking through a glass darkly. The fundamentalist followers of your religion believe in full accuracy only of the "original autographs," meaning the first versions of their scriptures before errors crept in through copying and translating. I wish them luck in their attempts to acquire or reconstruct these originals.

We, who feel that the search for truth is at least as important as the destination, also see through a glass darkly. We, also, feel frustrated at times when the answers won't come to us immediately. But we have hope that the truth written in the world around us, open for our observation, can be revealed if we search for it diligently enough. Indeed, in our struggles to uncover the nature of our origins, we have made errors, errors which have confused us and those who merely watch our reports from the sidelines.

What we cannot accept is the idea that the world around us has been created in such a way as to be deliberately misleading. Or, even if we do accept the possibility, we do not let that possibility limit us from our continuing search. From Aristotle to Heisenberg, from Darwin to Dawkins, from Eratosthenes to Gauss, our knowledge is a palimpsest, a continual rewriting of what we once thought we knew as we learn to know better.

To you, and to the spirit in you that strives for truth, I wish a successful journey.

In peace, Jesse
 
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Im_A

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if people are trying to change people's opinion about origin here, have fun. it's pointless and out of logic. all we can do is make people think.

i don't enjoy the pride that Christians relish in with their blessed YEC. i find it ironic how people believe the Creation story is meant to be taken literally when the stories were put together from pagan stories passed down to the Jewish tribes, and when even within the Creaiton story there are different things taking place. that alone, within itself gives a reason to believe in the metaphorical meanings behind Creation and to believe that God created us. when the theologians know this, i think it is something we should know. i get tired of preachers hiding controversial, but yet, historical facts of the scriptures. would hate to shake the faith of the bench warmers i guess.
 
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A4C

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caravelair said:
science does not claim to be ultimate or absolute. science only tells us what is LIKELY to be correct. and the more evidence we have, the more likely our idea is to be correct. as far as i know, there has been no widely accepted scientific theory in the last 200 years that has turned out to be totally wrong. if you can think of an example, i'd like to hear it.



how is "origins" an area of science? and ow has science been wrong in this area? please show me an example.
"big bang" , "primoidal soup" whatever all a load of rubbish and the scientific community know it full well
 
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Beastt

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A4C said:
Youn cannot put science up as the ultimate of truth. Particularly in the area of "origins" it has constantly been found to be in error so has has lost all credability in this area as far as I and a great many others are concerned.
You will have to better than say that the Bible is in error because science says so
The reality is that you're attempting to place a very old book, written by men before any standard of research had been developed, against the scientific method which has lead to the same computer technology you're using to refute it. Science is as successful as it is precisely because it forces itself to change when evidence shows that a change is necessary to maintain accuracy. The only reason you're not living in a mud hut, with no concept of the cause of disease, carrying filthy water to drink, wearing rags and stiff skins for clothes and dying before your 40th birthday is because of science. Instead you're seeing images taken from the surface of Mars, communicating from your air conditioned, centrally heated home with people all around the world and watching real-time video from half way across the globe, all because science has corrected itself when corrections were found to be appropriate.
And what you attempt to place as superior to that science is a book which claims that the Earth lies stationary at the center of the universe, formed in a day, was covered with water before it had an atmosphere, grew plants and fruit-bearing trees before the Sun had formed in an environment only 2.7°K above absolute zero, and tells man that wife-beating, slavery and the slaughter of infants is promoted by a caring and loving God.

For some of us it is pretty clear that what this book contains is nothing more than the ideas of these ancient men, who, compared to today, display an appropriate ignorance of the workings of nature. Just as men today might feel that their actions are guided by God, the men putting their own thoughts and standards of behavior to text thousands of years ago, thought that their customs and superstitions were guided by a God and so included the claim within their writings. And for reasons which defy logic, people today still fail to evaluate that claim and instead simply assume that because the text claims to have been influenced by God, it must have been so. Yet God has never once offered any form of endorsement for the Bible which should perhaps be seen as significant in the evidence against the validity of the book. The Bible certainly isn't the only book which claims divine origins. Nor is it the only book claiming divine origins which exhibits accurate prophecy. So why would anyone single it out, place it above science, and proclaim it exclusively as "the word of God", while ignoring its obvious fallicies?
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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A4C said:
"big bang" , "primoidal soup" whatever all a load of rubbish and the scientific community know it full well
I’m curious. What is your precise reason for considering certain theories “rubbish”? Honestly.


 
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A4C

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Beastt said:
The reality is that you're attempting to place a very old book, written by men before any standard of research had been developed, against the scientific method which has lead to the same computer technology you're using to refute it. Science is as successful as it is precisely because it forces itself to change when evidence shows that a change is necessary to maintain accuracy. The only reason you're not living in a mud hut, with no concept of the cause of disease while seeing images taken from the surface of Mars, communicating from your home with people all around the world and watching real-time video from half way across the world is because science has corrected itself when corrections were found to be appropriate.
And what you attempt to place as superior to that science is a book which claims that the Earth lies stationary at the center of the universe, formed in a day, was covered with water before it had an atmosphere, grew plants and fruit-bearing trees before the Sun had formed in an environment only 2.7°K above absolute zero, and tells man that wife-beating, slavery and the slaughter of infants is promoted by a caring and loving God.
And also knew you while still in your mother's womb -And believe it or not loves you and sent His Son to die for you.
 
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Nathan Poe

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aeroz19 said:
In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.

Why continue?!

Because all that is necessary for Creationists to win is for Evolutionists to do nothing.
 
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A4C

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AnEmpiricalAgnostic said:
I’m curious. What is your precise reason for considering certain theories “rubbish”? Honestly.
It is scientifically impossible that "bangs" (no matter how big) or soup produce the complexities of the life forms that inhabit the earth. If you can show me scientific proof that is to the contrary I will reconsider my opinion
 
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AnEmpiricalAgnostic

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A4C said:
It is scientifically impossible that "bangs" (no matter how big) or soup produce the complexities of the life forms that inhabit the earth. If you can show me scientific proof that is to the contrary I will reconsider my opinion
”Bang” and “soup” are colloquial terms. The beginning of the universe didn’t make a sound and life didn’t evolve from a chef-boyardee recipe.


You are asking me to impart multiple years of education onto you in a forum post. The information is out there waiting for you to take it. If you have not even sought to learn why these theories even exist then nobody can help you. You need to ask yourself why you have dismissed these theories as “rubbish” without even learning why they exist. They aren’t created as part of an EAC to turn theists away from god.

There are reasons why many smart people have come to these conclusions. If you dismiss them without any consideration then you are placing your ignorance above truth simply because of how you’ve been told to believe.

Nobody is going to tell you not to believe in god. There will always be the question of first cause for god to be assigned to. But ignoring mankind’s advancements in knowledge is nothing more than holding onto ignorance in order to maintain your current belief system.

Here’s a place to get started http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/cosmology.html It’s a place where people can ask questions and learn. You should try it some time.
 
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Beastt

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A4C said:
And also knew you while still in your mother's womb -And believe it or not loves you and sent His Son to die for you.
If you find unsupported statements such as these compelling it might help to explain why you believe as you do. You question science despite its ability to show the work, show the mechanisms and explain each significant step along the path of theory. Yet you present comments completely devoid of substantiation, devoid of substance and expect those to offer superior evidence.
 
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A4C

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For those who do not believe that God did it but believe that "science knows how it was done without God being involved" and tries to get Christians to put away their Bibles which is their source of life for eternity and turn instead to a pack of science books which keep changing as often as our socks -well that would be as likely as a 75 million year old fossill of t-rex being found with soft tissue still in it's bones
 
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Im_A

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a4c, i would highly advise you to listen to what is being said here, instead of ranting on and on about your conviction. believeing in evolution doesn't mean Christians are putting away their Bibles. it doesn't mean there is any less love for God. research the Creation story out and you will find how the stories came together from pagan stories at the time and passed to the Jewish Tribes. you will always find, intricate differences within the story in Genesis.

if you aren't willing to listen to the other side, and stop accusing people, atheists or not of doing things that they aren't doing, i would advise to stop posting here, because you are doing nothing fruitful here. all you are doing is reveling in your pride, and your own convictions. God Bless!
 
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