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Why should any more time be spent here?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by aeroz19, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. belladonic-haze

    belladonic-haze Guest

    +0
    Because it is fun!!!!:p
     
  2. FlameProofHeretic

    FlameProofHeretic New Member

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    I wanted to clarify my previous post.

    I did NOT mean that ALL christians were attacking church/state separation.

    As someone who was raised Roman Catholic but does not beleive in the Nicean Creed, I do recognize the altruistic teachings and acts of Christian churches around the world.

    My frustrations are with fundamentalists of any faith and those who do not understand the need for a secular government.
     
  3. lao tzu

    lao tzu Radical strawberry

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    Taoist
    Single
    Greetings, aeroz19,

    Nolo molestare mio circlos.

    These are reportedly the last words of Archimedes, "Don't disturb my circles." But his death was at the hands of a common soldier, not a religious fanatic. A recent Nova program suggested that a rendering of the first writing on a discovered palimpsest can be attributed to Archimedes, and there are suggestions that his methods of calculating conic volumes involved mathematics similar to modern-day calculus. Of course, parsing the original forays by Newton and Leibniz, it would be difficult for an historian, given no other information, to see in it the calculus used today, so I'm not especially hopeful this can be appropriately judged.

    ***

    I'm minded of some of the other comments here suggesting a logical disconnect, especially in terms of the posts by A4C. As I've had occasion to mention previously, when discussing "evolution" with a creationist, especially a young earth creationist, it's often necessary to understand the creationist is usually conflating "evolution" to mean all science which serves to disprove the literal accuracy of the christian bible. More, in defending creationism, the apparent motivation is not to examine the scientific merits, but to support the moral philosophy engendered by their faith, one firmly rooted in the ideas of absolute right and wrong from an unquestionable source.

    The most difficult arguments I've ever attempted are those leading toward separation of moral precepts from the mythological matrix inherent in any religious text, especially when the discussion is with an adherent. The comparison that springs to mind is that of a bicyclist first learning to ride without the training wheels. Eliminate all of Genesis from the old testament and there remains an instructive guide on a tribal society's attempts to survive inside their cultural milieu.

    Eliminate the birth and death stories from the new testament and there remain spiritual truths for that contemporaneous society, many with a well-understood provenance from earlier and surrounding societies, that remain true today. The test of a spiritual truth is whether it can stand on its own, without the training wheels, so to speak. But, oh, how difficult to remove those wheels the first time.

    ***

    Aeroz, your first question, though you seem to have received other answers, is worth addressing again. Please allow me to rephrase it. Why continue to participate in a social interaction in the presence of the irremediably bigoted?

    First, for your own journey of discovery. There is more to discovery than the mere accumulation of facts; there is also the accumulation of methods, the sum total of strengths acquired in the process of walking while opposed that could rightly be described as wisdom. And second, as others have mentioned, for the lurkers such as myself. Lastly, because the irremediably bigoted may not be remain so. There is no branch so liable to breakage as that lacking the ability to bend.

    In peace, Jesse
     
  4. Hungry Hungry Hippo

    Hungry Hungry Hippo Bane of Marbles

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    Atheist
    Private
    UK-Conservative
    I just swing by here every now and then to joke around or get a good laugh. There are people here who are much more patient and learned on the topic than myself. I'm glad they have the will power to take the crevolution debate seriously, I can't.
     
  5. FlameProofHeretic

    FlameProofHeretic New Member

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    unfortunately the implications for the USA are serious.
     
  6. The Lady Kate

    The Lady Kate Guest

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    Agreed... it would be a serious mistake to not take any threat to our education seriously...
     
  7. aeroz19

    aeroz19 Guest

    +0
    How familiar are you with fundamentalism in the United States? I have attended fundamentalist churches all my life, and here is want they want:
    • No separation of church and state
    • Discrimination based most of the time on sex and sometimes race
    • Employment positions in management, law, and high-tech industries given to men first, then women. This means that men are preferred over women to fill position such as scientist, engineer, mechanical drafter, judge, manager (I am not talking about a McDonald's manager position), CEO, etc. (After all, why in the world would a woman want to get an Engineering degree? That's like, a man's work, ya know?)
    • Discrimination always based upon sexual orientation, religion, and personal sex life. This means that homosexuals cannot get but the lowest jobs, and have no job security at all. It also means that if your boss finds out that you are having sex and you aren't married, you can be fired and cannot sue for discrimination or harassment. It also means that if you aren't Christian, you can't run for political office (bringing in a religious test). I am dead serious, especially about the last part.
    • Most OT law is written into the laws in the U.S.
    • The ban on homosexual marriage is made a Constitutional ammendment
    • Another ammendment banning all abortions
    And that's just getting started. As soon as they got all that done, they would be in the mindset that they had broken up the ground for the real work.

    Then would come the darkest days the U.S. had ever seen, as we'd watch the fundies join forces with the reconstructionists.
     
  8. Sinai

    Sinai Well-Known Member

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    Protestant
    I have known and worked with fundamentalists from both the United States and from the Middle East. I have studied fundamentalism in both areas, and have helped to mediate disputes to which fundamentalists were parties. I respectfully suggest that those who think that political power is the only difference between Christian fundamentalists in America and Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East should probably continue studying both concepts. Again, the comment to which I was responding was very much an oversimplification.
     
  9. Smidlee

    Smidlee Veteran

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    Baptist
    Married
    you probably see is silly because if you really believe in humanism or as an atheist then the CvsE debate is silly and pointless. If this life is all there is then it make no difference what you believe since in 100 years from now noone will care what we think while there will be a new generation debating in more pointless debates.

    If you ever studied Ecclesisates you know it deals with this issue as death eventually puts everything into perspective. While Solomon realize that wisdom is important he also realize that under the sun a wise man dies just like a fool.
    Ecc 1:16 "for there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool foe ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. and how dieth the wise man? as the fool."
    Ecc 9:4 "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion." Also it could be said it better to be a living fool is better than a dead wise man.
    In Ecclesiastes Solomon (which was never a spiritual gaint like his father David) was trying to answer the question in the first three verses "What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun?" Solomon had great wisdom/knowledge ,wealth, and power to live it up down here on earth which he records his results in Ecc,

    So why do some continue? the answer is they can convert people like you as you see this is their religion. Of course they will deny this but look how strongly they preach this stuff even though a lot here are atheist. Also it human nature to think the more people agrees with your view the more you are right.

    The bottom line is rather you are a christian or a atheist the most important thing in this life is people. Don't waste your time arguing with your father especially as an atheist but instead continue to enjoy which is probably the best friends you have on this earth; your parents. They will not always be around.While I still have both of mine but realize they are up there in years and they have more health problems.
    As a unbeliever view ,If your dad is right atleast you know he loves God while if you are right then what difference does it make?
     
  10. Forever42

    Forever42 Regular Member

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    Unitarian
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    I have to agree with this. I rarely post partly because I would have to take some of the posts seriously, and I just can't do that. I also don't post because I've learned from being on the Something Awful forums to not post unless I have something to say.

    I have a lot of respect for those who can repeat themselves over and over to people who don't listen. I don't try to debate on food chemistry any more because of people whose minds are set and just. don't. learn. I get frustrated WAY too easily when I get personally involved :)

    But I've learned so much just lurking here, and I appreciate it.
     
  11. freedomfighter

    freedomfighter Member

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    Agnostic
    all that is required for ignorance to win is for wise men(women) to say nothing.

    i think those who can help make sure we dont fall into the trap of religious domination in this country have a duty to do so. religious superstition will eventually be educated out of most people but without smart people making their voices heard education could be turned back to the control of religious dogma.
     
  12. AnEmpiricalAgnostic

    AnEmpiricalAgnostic Agnostic by Fact, Atheist by Epiphany

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    Who said atheists believe that “life is all there is”. With a simple remark you show how you cast all non-believers in a selfish light. Sometimes the only difference between you and an atheist is the belief in your brand of GOD™. Meanwhile, atheists are people just like you. We want to have a world free of people killing innocent people in the name of god. We want to make sure our children are not brainwashed into trusting faith over reason. We would like to make the world a better place for the next generation. We are not evil. We are not amoral. We seek the truth and wonder at the same mysteries that have yet to be solved. The only difference is that we don’t take the unknown at put a GOD™ label on it.


    Like I’ve said before, I’m usually happy to live and let live. When theists start to push their beliefs on the public is where I draw the line. How you can call atheism a religion is beyond me. The only reason I can think of is to tap into some old propaganda about your GOD™ being the only true god and suggest that atheists are just another religion trying to brainwash people like yours. It’s funny how you use religion in this case as an insult to atheists. The only thing we “preach” is the truth. All the fundamentalist mind control propaganda melts away in the light of truth. After this, the person is free to make their own decision. Some, like grmorton, will continue to be a theist. People like that are at least reasonable in their beliefs. Others will choose not to worship any deity. The important thing is that they are not brainwashed into thinking like you for no reason.


    I’m surprised that you’re not Jewish. The last time I saw a guilt trip like this was from my brother-in-law’s mother. People should treat others with respect when they deserve it. I have a sneaky suspicion any friction in their relationship comes from the theistic side railing to keep their sheep from straying from the flock. I suggest that it’s more important to respect other’s beliefs and keep yours to yourself. If someone has thoughtfully weighed the evidence and come to a conclusion then your particular brand of faith based belief should not be crammed down that person’s throat atheist, Buddhist, humanist, or whatever. The bottom line is that everyone is entitled to hold their belief without pushing it on someone else.


    I dislike this reasoning. It’s really what the theistic beliefs of all my religious friends come down to. “Believe like me because, hey, what have you got to lose?” Some call this “pascal’s wager”, I call it weasely. Maybe she doesn’t want to see the people she loves brainwashed and taken advantage of. If they understand that the YEC beliefs are nonsense and understand the truth but still choose to believe in god then so be it. But nobody should die ignorant, afraid, and not in control of their own mind.

    I’m sorry to vent this in the direction of your post Smid, but it’s an example of what I see a lot around here. Believing in your GOD™ doesn’t make a person any more aware of the real world. All it means is that person holds the same guess about the unknown as you do. Being an atheist or humanist or holding any belief not centered around your god does not exclude these people from wondering about the unknown. I’d like to think there is more to existence than this fleeting moment we have in life. If there is, however, I doubt it’s anything like your exact belief system. I also admit I could be wrong, but I think the odds are in my favor.
     
  13. Smidlee

    Smidlee Veteran

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    Baptist
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    to win what? a argument?
    Smart people invented our most power weapons like Nukes. So education/science has just as much of impact on death,war and destruction as any known religion.(of course this doesn't mean neither science or religion is always evil) Yet again anti-religion itself is a religious view.
     
  14. Tomk80

    Tomk80 Titleless

    +384
    Agnostic
    Ignorance is bliss in your opinion? I'd say that an informed position is always the better position.

    It doesn't have the same impact. Wars are waged because of power struggles, most often between ideologies. Scientific progress influences how these wars are fought, not whether they are fought.
     
  15. freedomfighter

    freedomfighter Member

    105
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    Agnostic
    the battle for the mind of man. religion after all is a battle for the mind of man.
     
  16. Smidlee

    Smidlee Veteran

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    I admit this is the first I heard of an atheist believing in a afterlife.
    if you believe that atheist are just like me then why do you later agrue againest the idea the atheist are religious. So my claim was that yes atheist are just like theist just preach a difference message.
    what difference who's name someone kills in; God or not , it human nature to kill and war.
    human reasoning is more powerful to brainwash people than faith. Even as a christian it a lot easier to live by reasoning than by faith. It was human reasoing which cause Hitler (as with any serial killer)to justify killing millions of innocent people. Again you are claim me and you are not realy that different yet now you will try to claim you are not religious in your view in truth. (your truth is materialism right?)

    so you really are not happy with "to live and let live". Noone who really honest with themselves are not happy with this which is why we draw the line.
    remember we are really the same with different views on what is truth. I do admit I want to see people get saved and delivered from your so called truth and come to the knowledge of Christ. The only reason I can think of is to tap into some old propaganda about your GOD™ being the only true god and suggest that atheists are just another religion trying to brainwash people like yours. It’s funny how you use religion in this case as an insult to atheists. The only thing we “preach” is the truth. [/QUOTE] christians claim exact the same ,we preach the "truth". Yet if you are preaching the truth then what difference does it make. we preach so people can be saved for we believe in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection than it really doesn't matter what you believe as long as it's makes you happy.
    I'm not no politician so I couldn't brainwash anyone. of course you see us as brainwash but to be honest I see you this way. The real question what is truth? I could easily replace the word fundmentalist with evolutionist here and would fit just the same.

    It does take two to argue right? (Areo admitted she was arguing with her father. And when you make a agrument you are express your view or as you say pushing your views. While My dad and I disagree on a lot of issue yet we don't argue on these since our relationship is more important then any small disagreement. If we did get in an arguement this is two people forcefully expressing their views.
    explain to me what her father has to lose in believing and trusting God. Aeros is old enough to stand on her own. In her view her father has nothing to lose in following God.
    So ? What difference what you call it, her father probably is happy being a christian so what to be gain trying to convert him? Of course her father will be very disappoint she reject God for he want to best for children. if she really believe that there is no god she does have something to lose in trying to debate her father , they relationship . Obviously she has made up her mind and realize it not good to continue debating her father. while getting into worthless debate online is one thing, IRL there not much value be just to argue.
     
  17. Smidlee

    Smidlee Veteran

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    Again we battle because of the resurrection , without resurrection even religion is totally worthless since the mind of man will never be conquered , it's like the war on drugs and terrorism. Again at the end a wise man dies as a fool so the only knowledge even worth having is just what you need to live another day.
     
  18. freedomfighter

    freedomfighter Member

    105
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    Agnostic
    well then you have a problem because literal resurrection is a fable.
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/resurrec5.htm
     
  19. Beastt

    Beastt Legend

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    Which god? You wrongly assume there are only two choices from which to pick; God or no God. There are dozens, (possibly hundreds), of gods to choose from. Many of them declare they are the one and only god and that worshippers must have no other god. In not picking any one of them the risk is negligibly worse than choosing any particular one. Atheism isn't established based on statistical odds of picking the "right god". It's based on examination of the evidence for or against the existence of any god.
     
  20. AnEmpiricalAgnostic

    AnEmpiricalAgnostic Agnostic by Fact, Atheist by Epiphany

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    Probably because you’ve never taken the time to get to know an atheist and explore their reasoning. You are too busy generalizing about them and labeling them as an enemy.


    Because last time I checked atheism was almost the antithesis of religious (unless you count Satanism).



    Not really, the only thing I see atheists asserting is conclusions that follow empirical evidence.


    The only problem is that, like the fundamentalists in the middle east, religion is a self righteous excuse for murdering innocent people. It’s not for self preservation or protection of citizens. It’s simply for protection of their beliefs.


    Encouraging someone to reason is the opposite of brainwashing.



    This doesn’t even make sense. Reasoning actually requires critical thought. Faith requires nothing but belief.




    I’m not sure you want to go down this road. I’ve seen people talk of Hitler’s Christian influences. At any rate, perverting reason to justify an atrocity does not mean reasoning is bad or evil. Reason by itself is benign. Some people commit arson too, it doesn’t mean fire is bad or evil.


    See above for why I am not religious. No, I simply do not claim to “know” anything without empirical evidence I can review and come to my own conclusions on. I do not assert that materialism is the only possibility. Many atheists are not materialistic atheists.


    It’s the “let live” part that is the problem. If a theist wants to push religion on the public then they are not simply letting others live. They are interfering with other people and pushing their religious propaganda on the public. This can not be allowed.


    You use the word “truth” too loosely. All you have is a faith based belief that you are pitting against empirical knowledge. The odds are that the truth will lie with the substantiated claims and not blind faith.


    This is why people like me can’t live and let live. It’s because you don’t “let people live”. You aren’t evangelizing truth. You are trying to get people to believe like you believe on faith alone. If they don’t believe like you that is their choice and they should be left alone.


    The difference is substantiation. Your “truth” is based on faith. Our “truth” is based on empirical evidence. We value reason and critical thinking over faith and propaganda.


    The resurrection is just another unsubstantiated belief. You can not push unfounded belief on top of unfounded belief and justify it with faith and call it truth.


    To be honest, I don’t even think most churches even know they are employing mind control techniques any more. They are just methods handed down through the ages that get them the most followers. Make no mistake though, the techniques employed by most if not all churches have their roots in mind control. Encouraging some to think for themselves is the opposite of mind control.


    No it wouldn’t, and I’ve already explained why.


    Not necessarily, you are describing more of a debate. All an argument needs is one instigator trying to push their view on another.


    If his belief in god is not based on his own critical thinking then he has lost control of his own mind.


    I never said he should be converted. The important thing is that he come to his own beliefs based on his own reasoning and not by brainwashing.


    I can not speak for her, I am simply guessing that it’s not her trying to do the converting.
     
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