Why should any more time be spent here?

[aeroz19]

In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.

Why continue?!

 

[Jet Black]

In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.

Why continue?!

There are a number of reasons:

because there will always be those who want to learn, and those who we can save from the foolishness of Young Earth Creationism.

If it weren't for some of us, you may well still think that the universe is 6kya and the idea of a good antievolution argument was "if humans evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys". such anti-intellectualism depresses me, I think it is a real shame when people have such a simplistic childish and flawed view of the universe that they think their God made. By showing them evolution and science, perhaps they can really appreciate some of the majesty of the world that they live in, and not see it as some flawed, broken hellhole that they are rushing to get out of.

and finally, we can learn too. I have learned tremendous amounts of biology discussing things here, particularly from posters like lucaspa, and of course the occasional interesting questions from creationists.

 

[aeroz19]

There are a number of reasons:

because there will always be those who want to learn, and those who we can save from the foolishness of Young Earth Creationism.

If it weren't for some of us, you may well still think that the universe is 6kya and the idea of a good antievolution argument was "if humans evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys".

No, it just would have taken twice as long to discover the fallacies of YECism...so you do have a point...

such anti-intellectualism depresses me, I think it is a real shame when people have such a simplistic childish and flawed view of the universe that they think their God made. By showing them evolution and science, perhaps they can really appreciate some of the majesty of the world that they live in, and not see it as some flawed, broken hellhole that they are rushing to get out of.

Well...

and finally, we can learn too. I have learned tremendous amounts of biology discussing things here, particularly from posters like lucaspa, and of course the occasional interesting questions from creationists.

Alright....alright, you've convinced me. Recently I just have been so willing to put it behind me, so thoroughly disgusted with it all. I'm surrounded by YECists, and my dad in particular keeps inflaming the situation by bringing up YECist topics and rubbing it in my face, while being totally unwilling to educate himself on reality by reading anything that disagrees with his viewpoint. He is just willfully ignorant. And I'm fed up with it. It used to be that after he and I debated (or argued rather) I would come here to look for arguments to debunk what he said. But now I don't give a...uh...(insert expletive) what he says. So I don't come here to seek out info to debunk his latest fallacies. I know they are fallacies anyway.

But you're right...

 

[Jet Black]

No, it just would have taken twice as long to discover the fallacies of YECism...so you do have a point...

yeap, and everyone has a starting point to their journey, this can be the starting point for some

Well...

Alright....alright, you've convinced me.

something I am good at

Recently I just have been so willing to put it behind me, so thoroughly disgusted with it all. I'm surrounded by YECists, and my dad in particular keeps inflaming the situation by bringing up YECist topics and rubbing it in my face, while being totally unwilling to educate himself on reality by reading anything that disagrees with his viewpoint. He is just willfully ignorant. And I'm fed up with it. It used to be that after he and I debated (or argued rather) I would come here to look for arguments to debunk what he said. But now I don't give a...uh...(insert expletive) what he says. So I don't come here to seek out info to debunk his latest fallacies. I know they are fallacies anyway.

But you're right...

it's always good to know how the fallacies are fallacies. I mean take the creationist complaint about the height of the ladders for the moon landers, their claim is that it was to do with dust, but that wasn't the case, it was to do with how hard the landings were, and the pilots landed the landers far better than they were expected to, so the legs did not collapse fully. that is something I never knew, but I know now. the more of these one knows, the easier it becomes to refute pretty much anything a creationist says. sadly though not that many of their arguments are very sophiticated, or they just trot out the same tired old memes that they know, but do not understand - such as the "mutations cannot increase information" when they are completely incapable of defining information in the first place. I hope that after you have found how his arguments are debunked that you can go back to him and discuss it with him. It would be a shame if he realls is, as you say, wilfully ignorant. do you ever pose questions to him, ask why certain things are the way they are, when these things clearly do not make sense in a YEC framework?

 

[peepnklown]

Why continue?!

Because I can! (but JetBlack has some similar points on why I stay)

 

[A4C]

No, it just would have taken twice as long to discover the fallacies of YECism...so you do have a point...



Well...



Alright....alright, you've convinced me. Recently I just have been so willing to put it behind me, so thoroughly disgusted with it all. I'm surrounded by YECists, and my dad in particular keeps inflaming the situation by bringing up YECist topics and rubbing it in my face, while being totally unwilling to educate himself on reality by reading anything that disagrees with his viewpoint. He is just willfully ignorant. And I'm fed up with it. It used to be that after he and I debated (or argued rather) I would come here to look for arguments to debunk what he said. But now I don't give a...uh...(insert expletive) what he says. So I don't come here to seek out info to debunk his latest fallacies. I know they are fallacies anyway.

But you're right...

I have a Dad too who is a YECer Well you would expect that wouldn't you considering that He made it.

 

[Beastt]

I have a Dad too who is a YECer Well you would expect that wouldn't you considering that He made it.

As compelling arguments go, this is an unsubstantiated statement.

 

[Grengor]

What? ¿Tu habla engleis?

 

[Cassandra]

In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.

Why continue?!

Well, it is nice to dicuss something we are all interested in. Obviously, those of us who spend quite a bit of time here must, despite talking to walls alot, enjoy it.

I've learned so much since I've come here, and continue to do so. I'd be very disappointed if certain people stopped posting. Even seeing the same arguement and counter arguement over and over can be good. It helps get those facts burned into your memory

And I like the people. Even if I had nothing more to say or lost interest in the subject, I'd think I'd stick around because of the people I've met on the C&E board.



And it's always funny to see a creationist come in here, guns'a'blazin', proclaiming from the top of his/her lungs that the evil, anti-god religion of evolution is false.

 

[A4C]

As compelling arguments go, this is an unsubstantiated statement.

It is backed up by the Word of God. Would you mind explaining why you think the Word of God is unsubstantiated

 

[Beastt]

It is backed up by the Word of God. Would you mind explaining why you think the Word of God is unsubstantiated

Would you mind substantiating that the Bible, (which is what I assume you're referring to as, "the word of God"), is really the word of God? So far all we have is the Bible's own claim which, in light of all the false claims within, I find far less than compelling.

 

[A4C]

Would you mind substantiating that the Bible, (which is what I assume you're referring to as, "the word of God"), is really the word of God? So far all we have is the Bible's own claim which, in light of all the false claims within, I find far less than compelling.

What are the false claims and why do you say they are false?

 

[Beastt]

What are the false claims and why do you say they are false?

My first shot at this was a bit abrupt so I'm starting over.

There are a great number of biblical claims which science has shown simply aren't true. But since this is Creation and Evolution, perhaps that's the best place to start. The Bible clearly has man springing up, fully formed from some dust and the breath of God. Science can trace our origins back through other primates and show continuing evidence through less complex forms of animal life. Even most Christians seem to accept evolution despite the account in the Bible. But in order to accept evolution and not discard the Bible, they have adopted interpretive readings of some biblical accounts in order to allow the Bible to appear to align more properly with science.

Another example which follows the Creation and Evolution theme is the Bible's account of a global flood, when indeed, science has shown that no such global flood ever occurred.

As to the prophecy some like to present, the Bible is far from the only religious book with credible claims to accurate prophecy. Should we assume that every religious book which can demonstrate accurate prophecy is therefore the word of God? If so, what are we to believe when we find these books to be in disagreement?

 

[Scholar in training]

It is backed up by the Word of God. Would you mind explaining why you think the Word of God is unsubstantiated

I think that your interpretation of the word of God is unsubstantiated.

Would you mind substantiating that the Bible, (which is what I assume you're referring to as, "the word of God"), is really the word of God? So far all we have is the Bible's own claim which, in light of all the false claims within, I find far less than compelling.

I think you and I both know it would take more than one post to explain why the Bible is correct. There are various organizations and individuals who have demonstrated what prophecies from the Bible have been fulfilled and who have used the Bible for professional and practical moralizing (of course, that's not the Bible's purpose and it never has been; but if it will prove as evidence for you...). These studies are out there if you are willing to look for them.

Besides, this is Creation and Evolution, not General Apologetics.

 

[Beastt]

I think you and I both know it would take more than one post to explain why the Bible is correct.

In that I believe it to be clearly incorrect, I must agree that it would take far more than one post.

There are various organizations and individuals who have demonstrated what prophecies from the Bible have been fulfilled and who have used the Bible for professional and practical moralizing (of course, that's not the Bible's purpose and it never has been; but if it will prove as evidence for you...). These studies are out there if you are willing to look for them.

Accurate prophecy is not exclusive to the Bible. There are other religious books which present accurate prophecies as well, yet disagree with the Bible on a number of counts.

Besides, this is Creation and Evolution, not General Apologetics.

Yes, that's an extremely valid point. And that is why I steered my response toward the Creation verses Evolution claims of the Bible. But he presented the comment concerning the Bible as proof. I only properly identified his claim as an unsubstantiated comment. Either he can offer substantiation or he can concur that his comment was, along with being a belief he holds, an unsubstantiated remark rather than a verified claim.

 

[Ryal Kane]

Why?

One word: Lurkers.

Oh alright more than one word.
To paraphrase, All that is needed for ignorance to suceed is for wise men to say nothing.

 

[artybloke]

So far all we have is the Bible's own claim which

Except for the fact that nowhere does the Bible make any claim to be the Word of God...

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Indeed. We did a study of that some time ago over in one of the Liberal theology sections IIRC.

"Word of God", or "Word of the LORD", in the Bible, seems to mean:

a) the gospel message, preached
b) a specific prophecy

"Word" on its own, as in "The Word", seems to mean Jesus.

We couldn't find anywhere where it meant the corpus of writings we now know as the Bible.

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

In the C&E forum? I am considering retiring from debating C&E. My mind is made up concerning this area. Why do any of you continue on if your mind is made up? Really, it's kind of silly. You're combatting the four items I outlined about problems committed over and over and over and over by YECists.

Why continue?!

I had my mind made up a long time ago. I exposed myself to religion and even attended a few churches of different faiths to see what the hubbub was all about. Luckily, somewhere in my upbringing I developed a need to ask questions and question answers. This apparently insured that I couldn’t be force fed faith based teachings. I was even able to identify the methods various churches used to brainwash followers. I was able to figure it out for myself and was happy to leave others alone to their beliefs.

The irony is that my recent involvement is due to the advent of ID and the recent intrusions of church into state. If it weren’t for the foolhardy attempt to push of faith based pseudoscience on the public I wouldn’t even be here. I’m normally a “live and let live” kinda guy, but this nonsense has gone too far.

When I got on the scene, I saw more voices of reason that I had expected to find. I admired that there was a handful of people willing to take on this thankless job of propaganda police. I also realized that if it wasn’t for these people, this place would be nothing but fundamentalists spouting rhetoric and patting each other on the back. When I though of the countless lurkers that could read this PRATT rubbish I realized how important it was to have these intelligent few voices of reason to refute them (no matter how many times a PRATT is pushed on the public).

The only payoff we get are when people like you are able to shake the fundamentalist mind control and see the world for what it really is. It makes me sad to think that some people die ignorant and brainwashed.

While participation here is less than fun sometimes, I admire people like jet, tomk, grmorton, aron-ra, USincog, gluadys, and many others for taking their personal time to help fight ignorance. They are the reason I come back.

 

[Hydra009]

The irony is that my recent involvement is due to the advent of ID and the recent intrusions of church into state. If it weren’t for the foolhardy attempt to push of faith based pseudoscience on the public I wouldn’t even be here. I’m normally a “live and let live” kinda guy, but this nonsense has gone too far.

When I got on the scene, I saw more voices of reason that I had expected to find. I admired that there was a handful of people willing to take on this thankless job of propaganda police. I also realized that if it wasn’t for these people, this place would be nothing but fundamentalists spouting rhetoric and patting each other on the back. When I though of the countless lurkers that could read this PRATT rubbish I realized how important it was to have these intelligent few voices of reason to refute them (no matter how many times a PRATT is pushed on the public).

The only payoff we get are when people like you are able to shake the fundamentalist mind control and see the world for what it really is. It makes me sad to think that some people die ignorant and brainwashed.

Same here. Not against religion per se, but the truth is, YEC and similar beliefs are shackles on people's abilities to learn and reason, as well as being scientifically disproven. I wouldn't wish that kind of thing on my worst enemy. It's always good to see someone rehabilited from that kind of nonsense, saving America's education system from pseudoscience one person at a time.

So here's the reasons why I come here: I think maybe, just maybe I can penetrate the fog of what is essentially brainwashing and let in some fresh air. That and the possibility that if this nonsense goes unchallenged, it'll spread like wildfire among those not yet educated enough to know better.