WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[pasifika]

Thanks, Clare.

I've shown grammatically that LGW did not say what you've written & that you've mischaracterized the structure of his statement. LGW has told us he doesn't agree with that statement that originated with your error. I've seen no one, including you, agree with that statement. I think it's safe to move on in agreement at least on that matter. Whether or not you want to admit your mistake is entirely up to you. We all make them. Thanks for showing where it came from.

God's Law, correctly understood, reveals to us what Love is according to Him. God is Love. So, God is revealing His character to us by telling us what Love is. If we desire to imitate God, to become more and more like Him, then we can read His commandments and check ourselves to see if we are thinking, speaking, acting as He does in Love. Love for us is keeping God's commandments, His Law that is being written on our hearts, so we function as He does naturally, as He conforms us to the likeness of His first-born Son, our eldest Brother and Lord, to be keeping God's commandments from a new heart, by His Spirit in us. In Christ Jesus, God's commandments in God's Law will not be a burden for us, but simply a part of who we are by God's grace, through Faith that is being developed in us as greater and greater faithfulness to God as we work with Him to be developed from infancy to maturity and beyond, as Christ is formed in us. If we see a sibling in Christ caught up in sin, then those of us who have become mature enough (spiritual as Paul puts it) to see this, are commanded by God to help restore him to the narrow path of walking as Jesus walked and to carry his burden and thereby fulfill Christ's Law to love another as He loved and loves us, by carrying our burdens to His death on the cross.

If we'd just wake up and take a stand against sin, which is taught to us in God's commandments in God's Law, then we'd be further on our way to conforming to what God is actually doing in His Salvation Plan instituted by Him through His Son by His Spirit.

We Love God when we Obey God. When we Obey God by His Spirit and remaining in Christ, we Love God and our Christian siblings and we are enabled to fulfill and are fulfilling Christ's Law. This brings fulfillment to why He was sent by our Father to ultimately be put to death by His creation, so He could be raised and raise Himself to Life as and in the New Creation wherein we are created in righteousness to become more and more righteous in thought, speech and actions from a new heart, having God's commandments written on our hearts, not being enslaved under subjection to law, but being willingly and obedient enslaved under subjection to God's Grace in Christ with God's Spirit in us. Within this we will come to increasingly know Love and actually and Biblically Love according to the criteria for Love written in God Word, more specifically in God's Law, more specifically in God's commandments. Love for God and neighbor and for one another as Children of God and followers of Christ - Christians - is keeping God's commands and His commands no longer being a burden we can't carry. Anything else is sin, which is lawlessness, which is unrighteousness, which is simply disobedience to God.

NKJ 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

NKJ Titus 1:16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable (detestable, repugnant, disgusting), disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

"Active Sinner" and "Christian" just do not go together. Love and disobedience to God are contradictory terms. Love is active obedience to God from the heart, by God's Spirit, in Christ Jesus. God's Law never ends. It is a revelation of the eternal God's character. He has changed His Law in ways to facilitate His New Creation in Christ Jesus, but He has not and never will change those commandments that ultimately detail His eternally Righteous character that He is conforming us to in His Beloved First-Born Son. God is Love and Righteous and Holy and..., and God does not change. We do.

Can we Lose our Salvation? Try walking away from the above, the narrow way, go back through the narrow gate, fall from grace, become detached from the nourishing root, remove your hands from the plow, effectively leave The Faith, cease obeying God, which is to cease loving God and neighbor and one another, etc., etc., and then try to tell some of us why you're a Christian and you think you love God. Sorry, we have and read God's written criteria for that statement. In fact, some to much of it has been written on our hearts. It's who and what we are. And we're new and different from you and can see your error.

Hello @GDL, if you mean loving God is by keeping the 10 commandments, then you need to prayerfully asking for His Spirit.

Follow the 10commandments as a way to show love for God is an error Philippians 3:9

 

[GDL]

Hello @GDL, if you mean loving God is by keeping the 10 commandments, then you need to prayerfully asking for His Spirit.

Follow the 10commandments as a way to show love for God is an error Philippians 3:9

God's Spirit and I spend a lot of time together in God's Word. Yes, I can always learn more and, yes, I will learn that I have error that I didn't realize. This seems to be the process.

However, in answer to you, there has been much discussion regarding what you address, and I'd refer you to any discussion regarding 1 John 5:3 and Romans 13:8-10 regarding Love and God's Commandments. Then I'd take this area of Philippians and see how it correlates to such teaching realizing that Romans and Philippians will not be in tension or conflict.

If you'd like to discuss perceived tension, please let me know and maybe others will help us work it out.

Thanks, pasifika.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hello @GDL, if you mean loving God is by keeping the 10 commandments, then you need to prayerfully asking for His Spirit.

All believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

Believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, per Eph 5:18.

 

[pasifika]

God's Spirit and I spend a lot of time together in God's Word. Yes, I can always learn more and, yes, I will learn that I have error that I didn't realize. This seems to be the process.

However, in answer to you, there has been much discussion regarding what you address, and I'd refer you to any discussion regarding 1 John 5:3 and Romans 13:8-10 regarding Love and God's Commandments. Then I'd take this area of Philippians and see how it correlates to such teaching realizing that Romans and Philippians will not be in tension or conflict.

If you'd like to discuss perceived tension, please let me know and maybe others will help us work it out.

Thanks, pasifika.

Hello GDL thank you, yes I am interested in discussing such bible passages as you've mentioned. As long as I don't derail @LGW thread.

Also, in such discussions I might find out errors in my biblical understanding that I didn't realise.

Thank you

 

[pasifika]

All believers are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Eph 1:13,14

Believers are commanded to be filled with the Spirit, per Eph 5:18.

Agreed, and the Holy Spirit is a gift Acts 2:38

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have the same question. Can't tell.

Crickets

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello GDL thank you, yes I am interested in discussing such bible passages as you've mentioned. As long as I don't derail @LGW thread.

Also, in such discussions I might find out errors in my biblical understanding that I didn't realise.

Thank you

At @GDL and @pasifika please go ahead, no problem as I see what GDL is discussing as being on topic to the OP. According to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says.

Take Care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

At @GDL and @pasifika please go ahead, no problem as I see what GDL is discussing as being on topic to the OP. According to the scriptures God's Word is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says.

You mis-stated the issue. Salvation is conditional. On faith in Christ.

Then, "following what God's Word says" is what those who have believed and ARE saved are to do.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You mis-stated the issue. Salvation is conditional. On faith in Christ. Then, "following what God's Word says" is what those who have believed and ARE saved are to do.

What comes first faith in Christ or the Word of God that tells us about Christ (Romans 10:17)? Therefore, according to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says. Thanks should be "salvation" is conditional in the last post which has been fixed up.

 

[GDL]

What comes first faith in Christ or the Word of God that tells us about Christ (Romans 10:17)? Therefore, according to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says. Thanks should be "salvation" is conditional in the last post which has been fixed up.

As long as we're at it, what comes first, faith or obedience?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As long as we're at it, what comes first, faith or obedience?

Faith of course that we receive from Gods' Word *Romans 10:17. Not sure why your asking. Do you think obedience comes before faith?

 

[GDL]

Faith of course that we receive from Gods' Word *Romans 10:17. Not sure why your asking. Do you think obedience comes before faith?

Actually, if memory serves me right, you & I have discussed this before.

Since you've brought up Romans 10:17, let's start there and go back one verse. I recall you liking the KJV, so I'll use it for now:

KJV Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Doesn't Paul use obedience and faith interchangeably here?

 

[GDL]

Faith

BTW, where in Australia are you, so I know your clock? Mine is east coast USA.

 

[Danthemailman]

Actually, if memory serves me right, you & I have discussed this before.

Since you've brought up Romans 10:17, let's start there and go back one verse. I recall you liking the KJV, so I'll use it for now:

KJV Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Doesn't Paul use obedience and faith interchangeably here?

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That is the act of obedience which saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which “follow.”

 

[GDL]

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) That is the act of obedience which saves. Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which “follow.”

OK. I think we're mostly in agreement here and I especially like what you state in your next to last sentence. A few questions to make sure. FYI, I'm always seeking accuracy when I'm dealing with God's Word. Nothing personal intended in my questions:

1. My question to LGW was: what comes first, faith or obedience? How do you answer this?
2. You take us to the 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel statement. Is there anything more foundational in the Gospel than what's stated in those verses?
3. Is obedience/works - which equates the 2 words - accurate, or would obedient works be a better way to state it? In other words, I can see in the Word reason to state faith/obedience (which I think I see you in essence stating here), including from Romans 10:16, among others, but I don't recall a verse(s) that substantiate obedience/works. Maybe you know some?
4. Do you know any commands of God to believe in His Son Jesus Christ? If not, then why is it said that we obey the Gospel?

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What comes first faith in Christ or the Word of God that tells us about Christ (Romans 10:17)?

Hearing the gospel and then trusting in the gospel. Which is putting your trust alone in the work of Christ alone for salvationn.

Therefore, according to the scriptures our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says.

No one is saved by "following what God's Word says". Where is the OT Law found? In God's Word. And the Jews found that no one can keep the Law.

So, how is that "following what God's Word says"? It isn't. The Law was to prove to man that he can't save himself and to lead us to Christ.

 

[Danthemailman]

OK. I think we're mostly in agreement here and I especially like what you state in your next to last sentence. A few questions to make sure. FYI, I'm always seeking accuracy when I'm dealing with God's Word. Nothing personal intended in my questions:

1. My question to LGW was: what comes first, faith or obedience? How do you answer this?
2. You take us to the 1 Corinthians 15 Gospel statement. Is there anything more foundational in the Gospel than what's stated in those verses?
3. Is obedience/works - which equates the 2 words - accurate, or would obedient works be a better way to state it? In other words, I can see in the Word reason to state faith/obedience (which I think I see you in essence stating here), including from Romans 10:16, among others, but I don't recall a verse(s) that substantiate obedience/works. Maybe you know some?
4. Do you know any commands of God to believe in His Son Jesus Christ? If not, then why is it said that we obey the Gospel?

Thanks.

Faith comes first and without faith it’s impossible to please God. (Hebrews 11:6)

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the foundation of the gospel. The apostle Paul clearly states that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. The gospel is a message of grace which is to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

Obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel is what I believe Paul is clearly teaching in Romans 10:16. Now if we accomplish an act of obedience to God is that not a good work? To simply state that obedience in general is the very essence of faith leads us to salvation by works. Now good works are produced “out of” faith but there is a distinction between faith “and” works.

In John 6:40 we read - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Would you consider that a command or a suggestion?

In 1 John 3:23 we read - Now this is His command: that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another as He commanded us.

 

[Danthemailman]

Hearing the gospel and then trusting in the gospel. Which is putting your trust alone in the work of Christ alone for salvationn.

No one is saved by "following what God's Word says". Where is the OT Law found? In God's Word. And the Jews found that no one can keep the Law.

So, how is that "following what God's Word says"? It isn't. The Law was to prove to man that he can't save himself and to lead us to Christ.

Amen! (Romans 1:16; 10:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Galatians 2:16; 3:24-26; Philippians 3:9 etc..).

 

[ozso]

Those Christians who believe the Saturday sabbath (which is the crux of obeying the Law in this case) is not binding to them, sincerely believe that scripture, not tradition, but scripture, makes it abundantly clear that they are not required to keep the Saturday sabbath. Much less keeping it being a requirement of salvation.

The only reason why first and early church fathers and church history are brought up, is to illustrate that 99% of Christians have always believed, according to scripture, that they are not required to keep the Saturday sabbath.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

BTW, where in Australia are you, so I know your clock? Mine is east coast USA.

I am on Brisbane time (AEST) here in Oz mate