WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[FreeGrace2]

OK so you are a puppet without a choice.

This is just pathetic if you think that.

Tomorrow can you make a choice to continue to follow God, or to reject God?

Aren't you aware that believers have done that? Charles Templeton comes to mind, the evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham.

What is your point?

According to OSAS you cannot make that choice so you are a robot.

Well, you are wrong. There is NOTHING in eternal security that prevents a believer from rebelling against God. Where do you get your faulty information from?

Yes I am quite proud to give you a small bit of your own medicine, considering how rude and snarky you have been towards those who disagree with you in this thread. If you don’t like it, too bad.

Certainly not a biblical answer, but why would I expect one from you.

Let's do this; you find your single best verse that clearly teaches that salvation can be lost. And we'll discuss it.

Do you have one to discuss?

 

[Swag365]

This is just pathetic if you think that.


Aren't you aware that believers have done that? Charles Templeton comes to mind, the evangelist who mentored a young Billy Graham.

What is your point?


Well, you are wrong. There is NOTHING in eternal security that prevents a believer from rebelling against God. Where do you get your faulty information from?

Oh I see, so the ranting atheist who hates God is still saved. Certainly not a biblical answer, but why would I expect one from you?

Let's do this; you find your single best verse that clearly teaches that salvation can be lost. And we'll discuss it.

Do you have one to discuss?

I have no desire to discuss anything with you at this point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh I see, so the ranting atheist who hates God is still saved.

Those who are so unfamiliar with the Bible would think so.

However, what you completely fail to think about or understand is this: when this "former believer" dies, they leave their body of sin. So they NO LONGER have their sinful nature.

So, such thinking isn't even possible. Why would you presume it would?

I have no desire to discuss anything with you at this point.

Right. I just asked for your single best verse on loss of salvation, and instead, you bail out.

Naturally. What else are you going to do?

You know the Bible doesn't have any verse that teaches loss of salvation.

So, .

 

[Swag365]

Those who are so unfamiliar with the Bible would think so.

However, what you completely fail to think about or understand is this: when this "former believer" dies, they leave their body of sin. So they NO LONGER have their sinful nature.

So, such thinking isn't even possible. Why would you presume it would?

All Christians continue to sin after they are saved. And you already admitted that a believer can rebel against God. If a believer is capable of sinning and rebelling against God, he is capable of becoming an atheist, because atheism is rebellion against God. This is why the New Testament is replete with warnings against falling away. Perhaps you should read it an additional time.

Either that, or the saved person is a puppet according to OSAS.

Right. I just asked for your single best verse on loss of salvation, and instead, you bail out.

Naturally. What else are you going to do?

You know the Bible doesn't have any verse that teaches loss of salvation.

So, .

Now you have resorted to mind-reading. I find that amusing. No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who are so unfamiliar with the Bible would think so.

However, what you completely fail to think about or understand is this: when this "former believer" dies, they leave their body of sin. So they NO LONGER have their sinful nature.

So, such thinking isn't even possible. Why would you presume it would?

All Christians continue to sin after they are saved. And you already admitted that a believer can rebel against God. If a believer is capable of sinning and rebelling against God, he is capable of becoming an atheist, because atheism is rebellion against God.

All this is true. But what is your point?

This is why the New Testament is replete with warnings against falling away. Perhaps you should read it an additional time.

I'm quite familiar with ALL the biblical warnings. Again, what is your point?

Either that, or the saved person is a puppet according to OSAS.

Either "what"? What are you getting at? I've already noted that no one is a puppet.

Now you have resorted to mind-reading. I find that amusing. No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS.

Well then, it should be quite easy for you to find that single best and most clear verse that teaches that salvation can be lost.

If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate."

I did read that post, and I didn't see any verse that in plain words teaches that salvation can be lost. So, you're going to have to help me out by choosing the single best verse that clearly tells us that salvation can be lost. That's what I need to believe you.

And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS.

Actually, no one has done that. Like you, they probably thought they did, but I've NEVER seen any verse clearly teach loss of salvation.

Maybe you have such a verse. I'd love to see it.

I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing.

Sure. I get it. Your mind is already made up. You think you have verses that teach loss of salvation.

I've asked for your single best one to prove your claim. But now you indicate that you have no interest in arguing.

Is that just an excuse because you KNOW that you don't have any verse that clearly teaches that salvation can be lost?

In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

Said Mr snark himself.

Look, I dare you to find any post of mine where I was rude and snarky. I can easily do that with your posts.

At least cite the post number where I've been rude.

 

[Swag365]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Those who are so unfamiliar with the Bible would think so.

However, what you completely fail to think about or understand is this: when this "former believer" dies, they leave their body of sin. So they NO LONGER have their sinful nature.

So, such thinking isn't even possible. Why would you presume it would?

All this is true. But what is your point?


I'm quite familiar with ALL the biblical warnings. Again, what is your point?


Either "what"? What are you getting at? I've already noted that no one is a puppet.


Well then, it should be quite easy for you to find that single best and most clear verse that teaches that salvation can be lost.


I did read that post, and I didn't see any verse that in plain words teaches that salvation can be lost. So, you're going to have to help me out by choosing the single best verse that clearly tells us that salvation can be lost. That's what I need to believe you.


Actually, no one has done that. Like you, they probably thought they did, but I've NEVER seen any verse clearly teach loss of salvation.

Maybe you have such a verse. I'd love to see it.


Sure. I get it. Your mind is already made up. You think you have verses that teach loss of salvation.

I've asked for your single best one to prove your claim. But now you indicate that you have no interest in arguing.

Is that just an excuse because you KNOW that you don't have any verse that clearly teaches that salvation can be lost?


Said Mr snark himself.

Look, I dare you to find any post of mine where I was rude and snarky. I can easily do that with your posts.

At least cite the post number where I've been rude.

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS.

I'm sure you are. So why aren't you so confident as to share that single best and most clear verse that refutes eternal security?

Me thinks you aren't as confident as you claim.

If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts.

iow, you know you don't have such verses. I've already read your posts and didn't find ANY that plainly taught that salvation can be lost.

So try again.

I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS.

Why can't you just give them again? What is your problem with repetition?

They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS.

You are free to say whatever you want.

I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

Well, this is a repeat paragraph from your last post. So it clear that you do know how to repeat yourself.

I am asking for clear evidence from Scripture and I absolutely DENY that any of the verses that you have already noted in previous posts DON'T teach loss of salvation.

All this stalling, dodging, and balking is clear evidence that not only do you NOT have any clear verse that refutes eternal security, you KNOW YOU DON'T have any.

That much is very clear.

 

[Swag365]

I'm sure you are. So why aren't you so confident as to share that single best and most clear verse that refutes eternal security?

Me thinks you aren't as confident as you claim.


iow, you know you don't have such verses. I've already read your posts and didn't find ANY that plainly taught that salvation can be lost.

So try again.


Why can't you just give them again? What is your problem with repetition?


You are free to say whatever you want.


Well, this is a repeat paragraph from your last post. So it clear that you do know how to repeat yourself.

I am asking for clear evidence from Scripture and I absolutely DENY that any of the verses that you have already noted in previous posts DON'T teach loss of salvation.

All this stalling, dodging, and balking is clear evidence that not only do you NOT have any clear verse that refutes eternal security, you KNOW YOU DON'T have any.

That much is very clear.

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Eternal security refuted, is any verse that speaks of the devil, that is pride and self seeking.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS.

Then what are you waiting for? All I need is the single most clear and plain verse that teaches that salvation can be lost.

If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts.

As I previously explained, I have done that and didn't see any verses that clearly taught that salvation can be lost.

So, just find your most clear verse and share it with me.

I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS.

You keep saying that. None of what I read says anything about losing salvation.

They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate."

Two things here. The first is that all you can do is vaguely refer to a specific post, but not even a post #.

Second, saying you don't want to get in a lengthy debate is really just a bogus dodge of engaging the issue.

If you really do have a very clear verse that teaches loss of salvation, there wouldn't be any "lengthy debate".

How does one debate very clear words anyway?

And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS.

Your opinion doesn't sway me one bit. Only that single most clear verse that unambiguously teaches that salvation can be lost is what I need to believe your claim.

I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing.

Right. You don't have any such clear verse, so you hide behind this poor excuse.

Are you aware you've made 12 posts that just repeat yourself, even after I've proven eternal security. So don't give me this refusal to argue jazz.

In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

Prove your faulty claim with actual quotes or at least post numbers.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal security refuted, is any verse that speaks of the devil, that is pride and self seeking.

Could you expand on this comment? I don't follow the rationale.

Eternal security is refuted ONLY by a verse that in very plain unambiguously teaches that salvation can be lost. In.very.clear.and.plain.words.

 

[Swag365]

Then what are you waiting for? All I need is the single most clear and plain verse that teaches that salvation can be lost.


As I previously explained, I have done that and didn't see any verses that clearly taught that salvation can be lost.

So, just find your most clear verse and share it with me.


You keep saying that. None of what I read says anything about losing salvation.


Two things here. The first is that all you can do is vaguely refer to a specific post, but not even a post #.

Second, saying you don't want to get in a lengthy debate is really just a bogus dodge of engaging the issue.

If you really do have a very clear verse that teaches loss of salvation, there wouldn't be any "lengthy debate".

How does one debate very clear words anyway?


Your opinion doesn't sway me one bit. Only that single most clear verse that unambiguously teaches that salvation can be lost is what I need to believe your claim.


Right. You don't have any such clear verse, so you hide behind this poor excuse.

Are you aware you've made 12 posts that just repeat yourself, even after I've proven eternal security. So don't give me this refusal to argue jazz.


Prove your faulty claim with actual quotes or at least post numbers.

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

 

[Swag365]

Could you expand on this comment? I don't follow the rationale.

Eternal security is refuted ONLY by a verse that in very plain unambiguously teaches that salvation can be lost. In.very.clear.and.plain.words.

No, that is false. The Bible does not teach OSAS. There is nothing to refute. The Bible never teaches OSAS in the first place, and you have not proven that it does.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts.

What are you doing? Just doing "copy and paste"?

Can't even make a proper defense.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, that is false. The Bible does not teach OSAS.

You haven't refuted it. You've only claimed that you have.

There is nothing to refute.

That's my position as well. So, bring on your single best verse and I'll bring mine.

Then we will both see who has the evidence.

The Bible never teaches OSAS in the first place, and you have not proven that it does.

I'm waiting for your "overwhelming evidence".

If you don't provide any by your next post, I'll realize that you don't have any, and then I'll prove that Jesus taught eternal security.

 

[Swag365]

You haven't refuted it. You've only claimed that you have.


That's my position as well. So, bring on your single best verse and I'll bring mine.

Then we will both see who has the evidence.


I'm waiting for your "overwhelming evidence".

If you don't provide any by your next post, I'll realize that you don't have any, and then I'll prove that Jesus taught eternal security.

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.

 

[Swag365]

If you don't provide any by your next post, I'll realize that you don't have any, and then I'll prove that Jesus taught eternal security.

You don't sound very secure at all, which is why you keep insisting that we argue, argue, and argue the point to death. It sounds to me like you are trying to convince yourself.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS.

If you really were, you would have shared that single most clear verse/passage that would prove your claim.

If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts.

I've already told you I did read them and found NO verses or passages that clearly state that salvation can be lost for any reason.

You've got to do better than you've done. Don't you have at least 1 verse/passage that in PLAIN LANGUAGE teaches that salvation can be lost? It seems you do not.

I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS.

They didn't. You've got to do better than that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
If you don't provide any by your next post, I'll realize that you don't have any, and then I'll prove that Jesus taught eternal security.

You don't sound very secure at all

[Staff Edit] So I'm going to refute your claims that salvation can be lost. With just 2 verses.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse clearly establishes that those who hear and believe the gospel POSSESS eternal life. This clearly indicates to rational people that eternal life is POSSESSED WHEN they believe.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse establishes several things.

First, it is Jesus Christ Himself who gives the gift of eternal life, which occurs at the MOMENT of faith in Him, per John 5:24.

Second, the direct result of receiving the gift of eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish. The red words show who gives the gift of eternal life and the blue words show the direct result of being given the gift of eternal life.

So, these 2 verses PROVE that once given eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of faith, the recipient shall never perish.

Bingo!

I've seen all the nonsense by Arminians/RCC/etc who vainly try to make these 2 verses say something other than what they do say.

But take your best shot, since you don't have any clear verses on your side.

btw, these aren't the only very clear verses. But I think they are the clearest, most direct, and unambiguous of all of them.

And there are many more.

 

[Swag365]

If you really were, you would have shared that single most clear verse/passage that would prove your claim.


I've already told you I did read them and found NO verses or passages that clearly state that salvation can be lost for any reason.

You've got to do better than you've done. Don't you have at least 1 verse/passage that in PLAIN LANGUAGE teaches that salvation can be lost? It seems you do not.


They didn't. You've got to do better than that.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
If you don't provide any by your next post, I'll realize that you don't have any, and then I'll prove that Jesus taught eternal security.

[Staff Edit] So I'm going to refute your claims that salvation can be lost. With just 2 verses.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse clearly establishes that those who hear and believe the gospel POSSESS eternal life. This clearly indicates to rational people that eternal life is POSSESSED WHEN they believe.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

This verse establishes several things.

First, it is Jesus Christ Himself who gives the gift of eternal life, which occurs at the MOMENT of faith in Him, per John 5:24.

Second, the direct result of receiving the gift of eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish. The red words show who gives the gift of eternal life and the blue words show the direct result of being given the gift of eternal life.

So, these 2 verses PROVE that once given eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of faith, the recipient shall never perish.

Bingo!

I've seen all the nonsense by Arminians/RCC/etc who vainly try to make these 2 verses say something other than what they do say.

But take your best shot, since you don't have any clear verses on your side.

btw, these aren't the only very clear verses. But I think they are the clearest, most direct, and unambiguous of all of them.

And there are many more.

No, I am quite confident that the Bible refutes OSAS. If you want some verses go back and read my prior posts. I already gave you two passages that refute OSAS. They are in the same post in which I wrote "I don’t want to get into a lengthy debate." And plenty of people in this thread have given you many other verses that refute OSAS. I have no interest in arguing, and arguing, and arguing. In particular with someone who has been as rude an snarky towards other posters as you have consistently been in this thread.