WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

bcbsr · Oct 25, 2021

Doug Brents said:
This position forces you to ignore Heb 6:4-6.
“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.”
Who is a partaken in the Holy Spirit? Only those who have been saved! And the same applies to all of the other bolder criteria in the verses above.
Further, you cannot restore to repentance someone who was not already in repentance at some point.

This passage alone shows that a person can fall away.

Nope. Didn't ignore that. Though you apparently ignore the verses I pointed out.

Impossible Repentance

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Try as you might you can never bring this kind of person to repentance. That's why the author of Hebrews is leaving such people behind. (1John 5:16) Such people are unteachable. He's not saying that this is the case for all of the audience to whom he is writing. For if that were the case why would he bother writing at all? But no doubt he suspects among them are these kind of people. What kind of people?

They were people who had been enlightened to the gospel at some point. They had a taste of the Christian life. But were like those Jesus described is his parable of the sower. "The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away." Mt 13:20,21 Their faith was not rooted.

They had a partnership with the Holy Spirit. This is not to say that they had been possessors of the Holy Spirit. The greek word for "shared in" (metochos) is literally "became partners with". It is first used in the New Testament in Luke 5:7 "And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink." This is the type of relationship that the Holy Spirit has with those He is helping to come to Christ. See also Kenneth Wuest's comment on this point.

They had heard the word and witnessed the validating evidence of miracles. Yet Jesus even said of those who performed miracles, "Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ "And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Mt 7:22,23

If such people fall away they are like those Peter spoke of saying, "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing (about) our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known (about) the way of righteousness, than to have known (about) it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and, 'A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.'" 2Peter 2:20-22 I say "knowing about" because the work is not "gnosis", which is relational knowledge, but "epi-gnosis" - surface knowledge, knowing facts about the person but not necessarily knowing him personally. Notice that regeneration hadn't taken place as they are characterized as the same kind of creature they were prior to knowing. As such these are merely posers.

And concerning their recrucifying Christ, likewise the author will later say, "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Heb 10:26-29

These are the Judas's of the Christian community. The apostates of the faith. Who having identified with the believers, having alleged to have put their faith in Christ, reject him like the crowds who once followed Jesus as a celebrity only later to shout "Crucify him!".

NOTES
Heb 6:4-6 Falling Away
Many Christians ask themselves the question as to whether they have at some time in the past fallen away in the sense of which Hebrews speaks of in this section. But if they are presently believers in Christ and are walking in a repentant lifestyle, then according to this section they never had fallen away. For if they had fallen away it would have been impossible to have renewed them to repentance. But since they repented they could not have fallen away in the sense spoken of here.

What does it mean by "falling away" here? It means to recrucify Christ after having followed Christ, having been enlightened and given sufficient evidence of the truth of His Word. It is a rejection of Christ himself, as the Jews had rejected him at calvary.

Does this section mean a Christian could lose his salvation? Although that is a possible interpretation if one reads just this section alone, it seems inconsistent with overs verses. 1John 2:19, for example, indicates that true believers do not even "fall away". However, there are also many verses that indicate that not everyone who calls themselves a "Christian" actually is a believer (Matt 7:21). And if one is a real believer, then there should be some inevitable "fruit" as external evidence of their belief (Matt 7:19-20). Heb 6:7,8 indicates that this person is not such a believer, but merely a nominal Christian.

The situation described in this section may be likened to the time when Israel came out of Egypt, through the desert to the Jordan River, and despite all that they experienced of God's power, they refused to enter the promise land. So God sent them back into the desert to die.

This section describes a person who has been enlightened to understand the gospel. But understanding it doesn't make one saved. They have had a taste of the heavenly gift, possibly referring to the Holy Spirit which Peter calls a gift in Acts 2:38. In which case, "tasted" and "shared in" both refer to their experience with the Holy Spirit. The Greek word for "shared in" (metochos) is literally "became partners with". It is first used in the New Testament in Lu 5:7 "And they beckoned unto their partners, which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them. And they came, and filled both the ships, so that they began to sink." This is the type of relationship that the Holy Spirit has with those He is helping to come to Christ. Such people do have an experience with the Holy Spirit even though they don't have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit promises to believers as in Eph 1:13,14 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

They also experienced how good the Word of God is, although had yet to really put their faith in it. They also experience miracles, which made them even more accountable in God's sight just as Jesus had said: "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you." Matt 11:21,22

A person who has such knowledge and experience, and rejects Christ will be permanently lost. Having reject what the Holy Spirit had been revealing to him, he has sinned against the Holy Spirit, and as Jesus says, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Mr 3:29 Having led the person to the point of salvation, having given him sufficient evidence to make a decision, and having been rejected, the Holy Spirit breaks His partnership with the unbeliever and never returns. For "But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."Heb 6:8

Kenneth Wuest
(A Translator of the NASB)
on Heb 6:4
Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (NIV)
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (AV)

"Partakers of the Holy Ghost"
We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold", and a preposition meaning "with" thus "to hold with." It is used in Luke 5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Hebrews 1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Hebrews 3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Hebrews 3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.

The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the Joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salvation ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughly done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their willingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.

See also More Discussion over the Interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-8.

The Berean Christian Bible Study Resources

Rapture Bound · Oct 25, 2021

Doug Brents replied, "This position forces you to ignore Heb 6:4-6."

A person can successfully defend the truth of the eternal security of the believer without ignoring Heb.6:4-6 (as well as the rest of the warning passages). The prevailing and widely held view within the Reformed camp is that those depicted in these verses are not (and were never truly regenerated persons). One this point, as a Molinist, I disagree with their position and would agree with your assessment that "you cannot restore to repentance someone who was not already in repentance at some point." This, by itself, appears to be clear evidence that these verses were addressed to true followers of Christ.

However, what most people fail to recognize is the hypothetical nature that is in view here... the operative word here is 'if'; "If they shall fall away." 'If' denotes a condition that must be present, it does not assert that the condition will ever actually be met by any true follower of Christ.

So you may ask, 'What then is the purpose of all these 'hypothetical' warning passages?...Why would God include these warning passages if no true follower of Christ will actually fall away to the point of losing their salvation? 'Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall?'

In a nutshell, the warning passages are there to "light a fire beneath us", so that we do not become antinomian in spirit and deed. They are one of the necessary means that God uses to assure a genuine believer's entrance into heaven. God utilizes many other means to preserve His children). They are a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for Christians to freely persevere, that is to say, God knew he needed to give these warnings in scripture or else at least some people would not freely persevere.

Does the possibility of an event or state of affairs taking place mean that it will or must happen? Being trampled by a herd of elephants is something that could happen to me in my lifetime. That does not mean that it will, in fact, happen to me. And should I never actually get trampled by a herd of elephants during my lifetime, that fact in no way negates the possibility that I could have done otherwise (it was certainly within my ability or capacity to have done so). Many mistakenly believe that a middle knowledge approach to Providence entails determinism, which I used to think myself but eventually saw that it did not.

For a more detailed explanation, see posts #1 & #42 on my thread, "Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"
Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

Doug Brents · Oct 25, 2021

Rapture Bound said:
A person can successfully defend the truth of the eternal security of the believer without ignoring Heb.6:4-6 (as well as the rest of the warning passages). The prevailing and widely held view within the Reformed camp is that those depicted in these verses are not (and were never truly regenerated persons). One this point, as a Molinist, I disagree with their position and would agree with your assessment that "you cannot restore to repentance someone who was not already in repentance at some point." This, by itself, appears to be clear evidence that these verses were addressed to true followers of Christ.

However, what most people fail to recognize is the hypothetical nature that is in view here... the operative word here is 'if'; "If they shall fall away." 'If' denotes a condition that must be present, it does not assert that the condition will ever actually be met by any true follower of Christ.

So you may ask, 'What then is the purpose of all these 'hypothetical' warning passages?...Why would God include these warning passages if no true follower of Christ will actually fall away to the point of losing their salvation? 'Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall?'

In a nutshell, the warning passages are there to "light a fire beneath us", so that we do not become antinomian in spirit and deed. They are one of the necessary means that God uses to assure a genuine believer's entrance into heaven. God utilizes many other means to preserve His children). They are a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for Christians to freely persevere, that is to say, God knew he needed to give these warnings in scripture or else at least some people would not freely persevere.

Does the possibility of an event or state of affairs taking place mean that it will or must happen? Being trampled by a herd of elephants is something that could happen to me in my lifetime. That does not mean that it will, in fact, happen to me. And should I never actually get trampled by a herd of elephants during my lifetime, that fact in no way negates the possibility that I could have done otherwise (it was certainly within my ability or capacity to have done so). Many mistakenly believe that a middle knowledge approach to Providence entails determinism, which I used to think myself but eventually saw that it did not.

For a more detailed explanation, see posts #1 & #42 on my thread, "Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?"
Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?

This might be a valid argument if it weren’t for passages like Acts 20:30. Notice in verse 17 we are told that Paul is speaking to the Elders of the Church in Ephesus. And he tells them that from among their own number will come wolves seeking to draw away followers after themselves. These are not your average members of the Church, they are the elders (probably appointed by Paul himself), men of whom Paul, through the guidance of the Spirit, would have been sure of their salvation.

This could be an endless debate between us. I don’t doubt you believe what you do because of Scripture you have read. I too believe wholeheartedly what I believe because of Scripture. I do not think either of our salvation depends on convincing the other of our point of view.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

bcbsr said:
Nope. Didn't ignore that. Though you apparently ignore the verses I pointed out.

Impossible Repentance

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame..................

Try as you might you can never bring this kind of person to repentance. That's why the author of Hebrews is leaving such people behind. (1John 5:16) Such people are unteachable. He's not saying that this is the case for all of the audience to whom he is writing. For if that were the case why would he bother writing at all? But no doubt he suspects among them are these kind of people. What kind of people?

.....

Sorry I respectfully disagree here and have not seen anywhere a greater attempt to seek to simply explain away what the scriptures actually say in Hebrews 6:4-8. Even the Greek explanation used here does not explain away or supersede the context used in these scriptures which is in my view pretty much nonsense. Let's look at the scriptures very simply as to what they actually say in context...

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those (1) WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, and (2) HAVE TASTED THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and (3) WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, [5], And have (4) TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, and (5) THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, [6], (6) IF THEY (believers) (7) SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEMSELVES AGAIN TO REPENTANCE; SEEING THEY CRUCIFY THEMSELVES THE SUN OF GOD AFRESH AND PUT HIM TO OPEN SHAME. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God: [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; (8) WHO'S END IS TO BE BURNED.

The following are taken from the above scriptures...
1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come HEBREWS 6:5
6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

......................

Hebrews 4:6-8 as shown above is talking about believers who were once enlightened who received Gods' Spirit and have tasted of the heavenly gift and the powers of the world to come that had fallen away back into unrepentant sins whos end is to receive Gods' judgements (to be burned). Everything taken above is exegesis taken out of the scriptures verbatim. The same can be done for Hebrews 10:26-39. God's salvation of course is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says (present tense).

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OTHER GREEK SCHOLARS

Bengel's Gnomen
Hebrews 6:4. Ἀδύνατον) it is impossible for men, however qualified.—ἅπαξ, once for all) The adverb does not extenuate the matter, but renders the expression precise.—φωτισθέντας, enlightened) Christianity is the Whole, into which men get an entrance through the Gospel received by faith, and through baptism. There follow here the three parts in respect of the three principal benefits in the New Testament, proceeding from the Son of God, from the Holy Spirit, from GOD. So, enlightened (illuminated), ch. Hebrews 10:32. Whence the use of this word is very frequent in the writings of the Fathers concerning baptism. Life and light are often mentioned conjointly; the one is often observed to be included in the notion of the other. Therefore, as regeneration is said to take place in baptism, so also enlightening. And this phrase is particularly suited to the Israelites, who had not been without life by faith, according to the Old Testament, when they abstained from dead works, Hebrews 6:1; but yet afterwards they were bathed in the new light of the New Testament.—γευσαμένους τε τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου, who have tasted the heavenly gift) The enjoyment of light is in vision: now to vision is added taste, by which believers, being allured, ought to be always retained. Ἡ δωρεὰ ἡ ἐπουράνιος, the heavenly gift, is the Song of Solomon of GOD, as it is expressed, Hebrews 6:6,—Christ, who is tasted by faith, and also in His own sacred Supper; 1 Peter 2:3; and this taste involves more than repentance from dead works, and faith toward GOD. The participle, γευσαμένους, although the genitive [Hebrews 6:4] and accusative [Hebrews 6:5] are often used promiscuously, seems, however, in this passage to carry with it a difference in the cases. The one (Genitive) denotes a part; for we do not exhaust the tasting [enjoy the whole fulness, but only a part] of Christ, the heavenly gift, in this life: the other (Accusative) expresses more, inasmuch as the whole tasting of the Word of GOD preached belongs to this life, although the powers of the world to come are joined to this Word.—μετόχους, partakers) This partaking, as we have observed at Hebrews 6:1, involves more than the doctrines of baptism and the imposition of hands. In this clause the word taste is not used, because the Holy Spirit here is considered as rather producing the taste, than as its object.—Πνεύματος Ἁγίου, of the Holy Ghost) He is often mentioned in connection with Christ; Acts 2:38.

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Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For it is impossible - It is needless to say that the passage here Hebrews 6:4-6, has given occasion to much controversy, and that the opinions of commentators and of the Christian world are yet greatly divided in regard to its meaning. On the one hand, it is held that the passage is not intended to describe those who are true Christians, but only those who have been awakened and enlightened, and who then fall back; and on the other it is maintained that it refers to those who are true Christians, and who then apostatize. The contending parties have been Calvinists and Arminians; each party, in general, interpreting it according to the views which are held on the question about falling from grace. I shall endeavor, as well as I may be able, to state the true meaning of the passage by an examination of the words and phrases in detail, observing here, in general, that it seems to me that it refers to true Christians; that the object is to keep them from apostasy, and that it teaches that if they should apostatize, it would be impossible to renew them again or to save them. That it refers to true Christians will be apparent from these considerations.

(1) Such is the sense which would strike the great mass of readers. Unless there were some theory to defend, the great body of readers of the New Testament would consider the expression used here as describing true Christians.

(2) The connection demands such an interpretation. The apostle was addressing Christians. He was endeavoring to keep them from apostasy. The object was not to keep those who were awakened and enlightened from apostasy, but it was to preserve those who were already in the Church of Christ, from going back to perdition. The kind of exhortation appropriate to those who were awakened and convicted, but who were not truly converted, would be "to become converted;" not to warn them of the danger of "falling away." Besides, the apostle would not have said of such persons that they could not be converted and saved. But of sincere Christians it might be said with the utmost propriety, that they could not be renewed again and be saved if they should fall away - because they rejected the only plan of salvation after they had tried it, and renounced the only scheme of redemption after they had tasted its benefits. If that plan could not save them, what could? If they neglected that, by what other means could they be brought to God?

(3) This interpretation accords, as I suppose, with the exact meaning of the phrases which the apostle uses. An examination of those phrases will show that he refers to those who are sincere believers. The phrase "it is impossible" obviously and properly denotes absolute impossibility. It has been contended, by Storr and others, that it denotes only great difficulty. But the meaning which would at first strike all readers would be that "the thing could not be done;" that it was not merely very difficult, but absolutely impracticable. The word - ἀδύνατον adunaton - occurs only in the New Testament in the following places, in all which it denotes that the thing could not be done; Matthew 19:26; Mark 10:27, "With men this is impossible;" that is, men could not save one who was rich, implying that the thing was wholly beyond human power. Luke 18:27, "the things which are impossible with men are possible with God" - referring to the same case; Acts 14:8, "A man of Lystra, impotent in his feet;" that is, who was wholly "unable" to walk; Romans 8:3, "For what the law could not do;" what was absolutely "impossible" for the Law to accomplish; that is, to save people; Hebrews 6:18, "In which it was impossible for God to lie;" Hebrews 10:4, "It is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sin;" and Hebrews 11:6, "Without faith it is impossible to please God;" in all of these instances denoting absolute impossibility.

These passages show that it is not merely a great difficulty to which the apostle refers, but that he meant to say that the thing was wholly impracticable; that it could not be done. And if this be the meaning, then it proves that if those referred to should fall away, they could never be renewed. Their case was hopeless, and they must perish: that is, if a true Christian should apostatize, or fall from grace, "he never could be renewed again," and could not be saved. Paul did not teach that he might fall away and be renewed again as often as he pleased. He had other views of the grace of God than this; and he meant to teach, that if a man should once cast off true religion, his case was hopeless, and he must perish; and by this solemn consideration - the only one that would be effectual in such a case - he meant to guard them against the danger of apostasy.

For those who were once enlightened - The phrase "to be enlightened" is one that is often used in the Scriptures, and may be applied either to one whose understanding has been enlightened to discern his duty, though he is not converted (compare the note on John 1:9); or more commonly to one who is truly converted; see the note on Ephesians 1:18. It does not of necessity refer to true Christians, though it cannot be denied that it more obviously suggests the idea that the heart is truly changed, and that it is more commonly used in that sense; compare Psalm 19:8. Light, in the Scriptures, is the emblem of knowledge, holiness, and happiness, and there is no impropriety here in understanding it in accordance with the more decisive phrases which follow, as referring to true Christians.

And have tasted - To "taste" of a thing means, according to the usage in the Scriptures, to "experience," or to "understand" it. The expression is derived from the fact that the "taste" is one of the means by which we ascertain the nature or quality of an object; compare Matthew 16:28; John 8:51; Hebrews 2:9. The proper idea here is, that they had "experienced" the heavenly gift, or had learned its nature.

The heavenly gift - The gift from heaven, or which pertains to heaven; compare the note on John 4:10. The expression properly means some favor or gift which has descended from heaven, and may refer to any of the benefits which God has conferred on man in the work of redemption. It might include the plan of salvation; the forgiveness of sins; the enlightening, renewing, and sanctifying influences of the Holy Spirit, or any one of the graces which that Spirit imparts. The use of the article, however - "the heavenly gift," limits it to something special, as being conferred directly from heaven, and the connection would seem to demand that we understand it of some "special" favor which could be conferred only on the children of God. It is an expression which "may" be applied to sincere Christians; it is at least doubtful whether it can with propriety be applied to any other.

And were made partakers of the Holy Ghost - Partakers of the influences of the Holy Spirit - for it is only in this sense that we can partake of the Holy Spirit. We "partake" of food when we share it with others; we "partake" of pleasure when we enjoy it with others; we "partake" of spoils in war when they are divided between us and others. So we partake of the influences of the Holy Spirit when we share these influences conferred on his people. This is not language which can properly be applied to anyone but a true Christian; and though it is true that an unpardoned sinner may be enlightened and awakened by the Holy Spirit, yet the language used here is not such as would be likely to be employed to describe his state. It is too clearly expressive of those influences which renew and sanctify the soul. It is as elevated language as can be used to describe the joy of the Christian, and is undoubtedly used in that sense here. If it is not, it would be difficult to find any language which would properly express the condition of a renewed heart. Grotius, Bloomfield, and some others, understood this of the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit. But this is not necessary, and does not accord well with the general description here, which evidently pertains to the mass of those whom the apostle addressed.

There is much more that can be shared here but might stop for the moment.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

bcbsr said:
Yes, "Once Saved, Always Saved".

As for the questions your pose, many can be answered by the basic principle that the saved endure to the end.

John writes, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

Thus John would evaluate those who fall away as not having been saved in the first place.

Furthermore John writes, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

Thus those who point out verses which correlate salvation with behavior fail to take into account that principle. The nature of regeneration is such that those born of God do not continue in sin.

And that pretty much covers all the anti-Eternal security objections.

Hi bcbsr nice to see you and welcome. I disagree that those question stated in the OP can be answered that easily. The reason I say this of course is that if we can choose to depart the faith at any time or for any reason and remain in known unrepentant sin then there is no such thing as once saved always saved according to the scriptures. Also, the scriptures do not teach that if we are born again we will not practice sin or that we will stay born again if we do.

1 John 3:6-10 says [6], Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

According to the scriptures above we are only born of God as we abide in Him v6. This links to 1 John 3:9 that says the reason why those who are born of God do not commit sin (practice sin) is because His seed remains in them. This is what it means to abide in him. His seed remains in them that is the seed is the Word of God and faith in Gods word gives us the victory to overcome sin and the world *see Luke 8:11 and 1 John 5:2-4. So by departing the faith (the Word) into unbelief and sin shows us that we are no longer abiding in Christ or born again through faith in the Word of God as we are no longer believing and following what Gods' Word says (see also John 15:1-7 and compare to 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31)

As in response to John writing, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

This is simply stating that they are not really of us because they departed the faith *Hebrews 4:6-8. When they were "of us" they believed and followed what God's Word says. When they departed the faith they no longer believed and followed what Gods' Word says so were no longer of us because they no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says. We only belong to Christ according to this scripture if we believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Once again this only shows there is no such thing as once saved always saved if we can choose to depart the faith and lose our salvation.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

returntosender said:
I like how dedicated you are to the word and to others salvation. You're wracking up rewards in heaven.

Well thank you for the kind words sis. Although I am not really doing it for rewards but because I love God's Word and cannot help but share it with those who love God and His Word and pray they might be a blessing to all those who receive them.

God bless

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Indeed, God wrote the tablets the first time, but Moses shattered them when he saw the calf the Israelites had Aaron make them (Exo 32:19). And then a Moses re-carved the tablets when he again went up on the mountain (Exo 34:28).

Not really. According to the scripture context, Moses hewed out two more tables of stone. It was God that re-wrote on them again as shown in the context of Exodus 34:1 [1], And the LORD said to Moses, Hew you two tables of stone like to the first: and I will write on these tables the words that were in the first tables, which you brake.

Doug Brents said:
But all of this is meaningless to the conversation. All of the laws (moral and ceremonial) came from God (not Moses), and God said that the Old Covenant, with all the requirements, was removed when it was fulfilled by Him on the cross (“It is finished!”)

I respectfully disagree but allow me to explain why. You were claiming earlier that there is no difference between God's law and the Mosaic book of the law let the scriptures disagree with this claim and it is not supported in the scriptures. Not all laws from the Mosaic book of the law have the same purpose according to the scripture. Some laws a shadows of things to come while others are the eternal standard of good and evil according to the scriptures that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken which is why God directly gave us the 10 commandments *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and according to the scriptures in the new covenant if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

Doug Brents said:
The Old Covenant is the covenant made with Abraham, and renewed with Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and codified in the Law handed down on Mt Sinai. It was ratified repeatedly with the blood of bulls and goats, and was a shadow of what was to come, because it was temporary in nature. The New Covenant is the covenant in Jesus’ blood; shed one time for all (past and present), and eternal in nature. This covenant began with Jesus’ death.

According to the scriptures, Mosaic covenant included both God's 10 commandment that give us the knowledge of what sin is and the Mosiac book of the covenant outlining God's plan of salvation and the laws for remission of sins (Exodus 24:7). Both Gods' 10 commandments written on stone and the Mosaic book of the law, collectively made up the old covenant. Do you agree? So we have God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) and the Mosiac laws for remission of sins if God's 10 commandments were broken (e.g the Levitical Priesthood, the Sanctuary laws, the laws of animal sacrifice and sin offerings, and other misc laws). Now what laws are shadows of things to come and what laws are eternal and how does these questions relate to what God says is his new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27? Your mixing up the shadow laws of the old covenant with God's eternal law (Gods' 10 commandment) in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). God's 10 commandments under the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:22-25.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Sorry, I’ve read and reread those passages, and not one of them makes keeping the Sabbath mandatory in the New Covenant. As I said before, most of those are examples of the Apostles going to the places where the Jews were already gathered at a time when they were to discuss God (the synagogue on the Sabbath). After Paul makes it clear to the Jews that he will no longer preach to them, but will go exclusively to the Gentiles (Acts 18), the only mention of the Sabbath is in Col 2:16) where Paul makes it clear that the keeping of the Sabbath is NOT required. We are no longer bound to eat only “clean” foods (all meat is now edible (pork, squid, catfish, etc.)), nor are we bound to observe the Sabbath, nor any of the “High Holy Days” of the Abrahamic covenant or the Law.

Sorry dear friend I respectfully disagree. All of God's 10 commandments are the standard of Christian living and are mandatory because if we break anyone of them according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. Are you going to argue that taking Gods' name in vain or committing adultery is no longer mandatory which are also a part of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken? As shown earlier through the scriptures in the new covenant, everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated as the standard of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT AS TAUGHT IN THE NEW COVENANT

[1]. Jesus teaches us how to correctly keep the Sabbath showing that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath *see Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31
[2]. Jesus teaches us that he is the creator and Lord of the Sabbath that he made for all mankind *see Mark 2:27-28
[3]. Jesus looking into the future expected all his disciples to be still keeping the Sabbath well after His death and resurrection at the destruction of Jerusalem and onward *Matthew 24:20; Matthew 13:18
[4]. Jesus as our example kept the Sabbath as did all the disciples and Apostles even after the death and resurrection of Jesus *see Luke 4:16; Luke 23:55-56; Acts of the Apostles 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Revelation 1:10
[5]. We are told in Hebrews 4 that the Sabbath remains for the people of God to enter into by faith where it is written in Aramaic "therefore it remains for the people of God to keep the Sabbath" or in the Greek "there remains (left behind) a Sabbath rest for the people of God. *see Hebrews 4:1-11.

...................

So no dear friend there is plenty of scripture here showing that God's 4th commandment like all the 10 commandments are all re-stated in the new covenant as the standard of Christian living as proven above. Yet in response not a single scripture that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Sunday worship according to the scriptures is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God according to Jesus in Matthew 15:2-9.

Take Care.

bcbsr · Oct 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Hi bcbsr nice to see you and welcome. I disagree that those question stated in the OP can be answered that easily. The reason I say this of course is that if we can choose to depart the faith at any time or for any reason and remain in known unrepentant sin then there is no such thing as once saved always saved according to the scriptures. Also, the scriptures do not teach that if we are born again we will not practice sin or that we will stay born again if we do.

1 John 3:6-10 says [6], Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

According to the scriptures above we are only born of God as we abide in Him v6. This links to 1 John 3:9 that says the reason why those who are born of God do not commit sin (practice sin) is because His seed remains in them. This is what it means to abide in him. His seed remains in them that is the seed is the Word of God and faith in Gods word gives us the victory to overcome sin and the world *see Luke 8:11 and 1 John 5:2-4. So by departing the faith (the Word) into unbelief and sin shows us that we are no longer abiding in Christ or born again through faith in the Word of God as we are no longer believing and following what Gods' Word says (see also John 15:1-7 and compare to 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31)

As in response to John writing, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

This is simply stating that they are not really of us because they departed the faith *Hebrews 4:6-8. When they were "of us" they believed and followed what God's Word says. When they departed the faith they no longer believed and followed what Gods' Word says so were no longer of us because they no longer believe and follow what Gods' Word says. We only belong to Christ according to this scripture if we believe and follow what Gods' Word says. Once again this only shows there is no such thing as once saved always saved if we can choose to depart the faith and lose our salvation.

Take Care.

I would disagree with your take on those verses.

1John 2:19 doesn't say as you put it, "they are not really of us because they departed the faith" Rather it uses the past tense, Note "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"

Likewise regarding 1John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

He uses the perfect tense, which the Greek lexicon indicates, "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated."

Furthermore, it is not by human effort that a person is born of God as you would have it. Rather such people "were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13

A person cannot become unborn of God having been born of God anymore than a person can become unborn having been born.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

bcbsr said:
I would disagree with your take on those verses. 1John 2:19 doesn't say as you put it, "they are not really of us because they departed the faith" Rather it uses the past tense, Note "if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us".

Sorry I respectfully disagree. The reason why they where not of us was because they departed from us. Past tense is used because they departed the faith.

bcbsr said:
Likewise regarding 1John 3:9 "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." He uses the perfect tense, which the Greek lexicon indicates, "describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated."

I believe that your disregarding context here which is what was provided in the original post that you left out. I agree if you read the scripture outside of context then you may come to the interpretation that your trying to apply here but when the context is added back as shown through the scriptures earlier I believe it does not say what your claiming here. Also you run into other problems in your interpretation because then are you saying that if anyone is born again they cannot sin? Context here is conditional to abiding in Gods' Word through faith.

1 John 3:6-10 says [6], Whoever abides in him sins not: whoever sins has not seen him, neither known him. [7], Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. [8], He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [9], Whoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remains (abides) in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.[10], In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother.

According to the scriptures above we are only born of God as we abide in Him v6. This links to 1 John 3:9 that says the reason why those who are born of God do not commit sin (practice sin) is because His seed remains in them. This is what it means to abide in him or to be born again. His seed (the Word of God see Luke 8:11) remains (abides) in them that is the seed is the Word of God and faith in Gods word that abides in us gives us the victory to overcome sin and the world *see Luke 8:11 and 1 John 5:2-4.

So by departing the faith (the Word) into unbelief and sin shows us that we are no longer abiding in Christ or born again through faith in the Word of God as we are no longer believing and following what Gods' Word says (see also John 15:1-7 and compare to 1 John 3:6 and 1 John 2:3-4; Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31)

Take Care

Doug Brents · Oct 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
So simply the Mosaic covenant then is God's 10 commandment and the Mosiac book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) which collectively made up the old covenant. Do you agree?

No, the Mosaic covenant is a renewal of the Abrahamic covenant, and with the renewal, God added the 613 laws, of which the “10 Commandments” are only just the first 10. In them the other 603 are rooted, and Christ reduces it further to say that the whole of the Law and the Prophets can be boiled down to love God and love your neighbor.

LoveGodsWord said:
So we have God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) and the Mosiac laws for remission of sins if God's 10 commandments were broken (e.g the Levitical Priesthood, the Sanctuary laws, the laws of animal sacrifice and sin offerings, and other misc laws). Now what laws are shadows of things to come and what laws are eternal and how does these questions relate to what God says is his new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27? Your mixing up the shadow laws of the old covenant with God's eternal law (Gods' 10 commandment) in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). God's 10 commandments under the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:22-25.

Take Care.

Show me where, in the lists of those who will not inherit the Kingdom, where those who do not keep the Sabbath is found?
I see murders, thieves, sexually immoral, liars, covetous, etc.
1 Cor 6:9-10 - “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Gal 5:19-21 - “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Eph 5:3-7 - “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”
No where in any of these lists (or any other in the NT) is the Sabbath listed.

klutedavid · Oct 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
QUESTIONS (answers need to be supported by scripture)

Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Heard of the prodigal son?

Q2. IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

Our salvation is entirely conditional on believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10)

Q3. CAN WE DEPART THE FAITH FROM BEING A BELIEVER TO BECOMING AN UNBELIEVER?

Most certainly.

Q4. WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THE TEACH IF WE CHOOSE REJECT GOD'S WORD WHEN HE GIVES US A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH AND TO DEPART THE FAITH AND RETURN TO A LIFE ON UNBELIEF AND SIN THAT SAY WE WILL STILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

Repeat of Q2, Q3,Q4.

Q5. IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED BIBLICAL?

Definitely, if and only if, a Christian believes and bears fruit. A counterfeit Christian probably does not really believe and definitely will not bear fruit.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

klutedavid · Oct 25, 2021

Doug Brents said:
No, the Mosaic covenant is a renewal of the Abrahamic covenant, and with the renewal, God added the 613 laws, of which the “10 Commandments” are only just the first 10. In them the other 603 are rooted, and Christ reduces it further to say that the whole of the Law and the Prophets can be boiled down to love God and love your neighbor.

Show me where, in the lists of those who will not inherit the Kingdom, where those who do not keep the Sabbath is found?
I see murders, thieves, sexually immoral, liars, covetous, etc.
1 Cor 6:9-10 - “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Gal 5:19-21 - “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Eph 5:3-7 - “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.”
No where in any of these lists (or any other in the NT) is the Sabbath listed.

Good post.

I like the following Galatians 5:20.

"Sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like."

Not many are transgressions of the ten.

Add to these sins; worldliness, love of money, self righteousness, afflicting widows and orphans, e.t.c.

Once again the ten are absent.

Paul is specifically identifying the broader deeds of the flesh. Obviously, Paul explains that we are to live in the Spirit at all times.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

Doug Brents said:
No, the Mosaic covenant is a renewal of the Abrahamic covenant, and with the renewal, God added the 613 laws, of which the “10 Commandments” are only just the first 10. In them the other 603 are rooted, and Christ reduces it further to say that the whole of the Law and the Prophets can be boiled down to love God and love your neighbor.

Respectfully, I was not asking you about the Mosaic Covenants relationaship with the Abrahamic covenant. I was asking you about the Mosaic covenants relationship with Gods' new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). So what you have posted here is not relevant to what I was asking you. As posted earlier the Mosaic covenant includes is God's 10 commandment (Exodus 34:28) and the Mosiac book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) which collectively made up the old covenant. The scriptures are there for all to see go check them out. So we have God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) and the Mosiac laws for remission of sins if God's 10 commandments were broken (e.g the Levitical Priesthood, the Sanctuary laws, the laws of animal sacrifice and sin offerings, and other misc laws). Now what laws are shadows of things to come and what laws are eternal and how does these questions relate to what God says is his new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27? Your mixing up the shadow laws of the old covenant with God's eternal law (Gods' 10 commandment) in the new covenant that give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). God's 10 commandments under the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; Galatians 3:22-25.

Doug Brents said:
Show me where, in the lists of those who will not inherit the Kingdom, where those who do not keep the Sabbath is found?
I see murders, thieves, sexually immoral, liars, covetous, etc.
1 Cor 6:9-10 - “Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Gal 5:19-21 - “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Eph 5:3-7 - “But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.” No where in any of these lists (or any other in the NT) is the Sabbath listed.

Well that is easy. According to your argument above we only have to keep four of God's 10 commandments? Are you saying that we are now free to Have other God's, take God's name in vain, break God's Sabbath, dishonor our parents, and lie and these are no longer sin because none of these commandments were mentioned in the scriptures you provided above? Well of course I hope not. Sin according to the scriptures is breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures, sin is the the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and also not believing and following what Gods 'Word says (Romans 14:23) and James says if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. Do you believe that if we continue in known unrepentant sin we are in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God *Hebrews 10:26-31? BTW here is the list of those who do inherit the kingdom of God here *Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4. 1 John 3:4-10.

Take Care.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q1. CAN WE LOSE SALVATION IF WE DEPART THE FAITH BY REJECTING GOD'S WORD AND RETURNING TO A LIFE OF KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN?

Your response...

klutedavid said:
Heard of the prodigal son?

Well yes I have. The Prodigal was repentant and returned to God. This does not answer question one.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q2. IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL ON BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS?

Your response here...

klutedavid said:
Our salvation is entirely conditional on believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10)Most certainly.

So you are agreeing that our salvation is conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word say? Again you did not answer the question.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q4. WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES THE TEACH IF WE CHOOSE REJECT GOD'S WORD WHEN HE GIVES US A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH AND TO DEPART THE FAITH AND RETURN TO A LIFE ON UNBELIEF AND SIN THAT SAY WE WILL STILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE?

Your response here...

klutedavid said:
Repeat of Q2, Q3,Q4.

No it isn't and this is non-responsive and again, not answering the question asked in the OP.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Q5. IS THE DOCTRINE OF ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED BIBLICAL?
Definitely, if and only if, a Christian believes and bears fruit. A counterfeit Christian probably does not really believe and definitely will not bear fruit.

If that was the case how can one depart the faith and be lost?

klutedavid said:
John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This scripture does not support the view once saved always saved. The Greek word used here for believe is present tense active to believing now. Not believing yesterday and departing the faith now to return to unbelief and sin. Thanks for sharing your view though.

Take Care.

returntosender · Oct 25, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Well thank you for the kind words sis. Although I am not really doing it for rewards but because I love God's Word and cannot help by share it with those who love God and His Word and pray they might be a blessing to all those who receive them.

God bless

I know that about you and thank you for the bless and God bless you also.

Doug Brents · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Respectfully, I was not asking you about the Mosaic Covenants relationaship with the Abrahamic covenant. I was asking you about the Mosaic covenants relationship with Gods' new covenant promise (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). So what you have posted here is not relevant to what I was asking you.

Yes, it is completely relevant. You seem to want to start with the 10 Commandments as the beginning of God’s relationship with man (or at least with Israel). But that relationship, and the connected covenant, began much earlier, and ALL of that earlier covenant was wiped out by the fulfillment of it and the institution of the NEW Covenant.

LoveGodsWord said:
Well that is easy. According to your argument above we only have to keep four of God's 10 commandments? Are you saying that we are now free to Have other God's, take God's name in vain, break God's Sabbath, dishonor our parents, and lie and these are no longer sin because none of these commandments were mentioned in the scriptures you provided above? Well of course I hope not. Sin according to the scriptures is breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments

Ummm, no. Sin is breaking ANY of God’s commands, not just the 10. And as I have said from the beginning, all of the other 9 commandments are restated in the New Covenant, but they were made more clear: no just don’t murder, but don’t even hate; no just don’t commit adultery, but don’t lust; not just honor your father and mother, but do good to them and take care of them, etc. But keeping the Sabbath is significantly absent from any discussion of sin in the NT.

LoveGodsWord said:
Do you believe that if we continue in known unrepentant sin we are in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God *Hebrews 10:26-31? BTW here is the list of those who do inherit the kingdom of God here *Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4. 1 John 3:4-10.

Take Care.

Absolutely, living in unrepentant sin will keep you in an unsaved state. But not keeping the Sabbath under the New Covenant (which we are today) is not sin unless you believe it is.
Heb 14:1-7 - “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats onlyvegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.”

You are welcome to hold the Sabbath as holy; I hold all days as equal. You honor God in the Sabbath; I honor God in all days.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Yes, it is completely relevant. You seem to want to start with the 10 Commandments as the beginning of God’s relationship with man (or at least with Israel). But that relationship, and the connected covenant, began much earlier, and ALL of that earlier covenant was wiped out by the fulfillment of it and the institution of the NEW Covenant.

I see. So I ask you about the Mosaic covenants relationship with Gods' new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 and you start talking about, how the Abrahamic covenant related to the Mosiac covenant and you think that is relevant to the question I am asking you? I guess we have a communication breakdown somewhere it seems. Respectfully, I did not ask you where the covenants began. I asked you how the Mosaic covenant relates to Gods' new covenant promise (from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). If you do not know the answer just say so as I am happy to answer the question or if you do not want to answer the question just say so as you do not have to if you do not want to. It is up to you.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Well that is easy. According to your argument above we only have to keep four of God's 10 commandments? Are you saying that we are now free to Have other God's, take God's name in vain, break God's Sabbath, dishonor our parents, and lie and these are no longer sin because none of these commandments were mentioned in the scriptures you provided above? Well of course I hope not. Sin according to the scriptures is breaking anyone of Gods' 10 commandments and not believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures, sin is the the transgression of the law *1 John 3:4 and also not believing and following what Gods 'Word says (Romans 14:23) and James says if we break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. Do you believe that if we continue in known unrepentant sin we are in a saved state with God or an unsaved state with God *Hebrews 10:26-31? BTW here is the list of those who do inherit the kingdom of God here *Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4. 1 John 3:4-10.

Your response here...

Doug Brents said:
Ummm, no. Sin is breaking ANY of God’s commands, not just the 10. And as I have said from the beginning, all of the other 9 commandments are restated in the New Covenant, but they were made more clear: no just don’t murder, but don’t even hate; no just don’t commit adultery, but don’t lust; not just honor your father and mother, but do good to them and take care of them, etc. But keeping the Sabbath is significantly absent from any discussion of sin in the NT.

Not really dear friend that is not true at all. All of God's 10 commandments are restated in the new covenant including God's 4th commandment as proven in the scriptures posted in post # 128 linked. Also you may want to consider that the scriptures teach that sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following what God's Word says as shown in Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20; James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23 which are Gods' Word (not mine). You may also want to consider your response here..

"Ummm, no. Sin is breaking anyone of the commandment not just the 10"

Now think about your response here. I have posted scripture from Gods Word showing that sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments or not believing or following what God's Word says. Your response is "Ummm no. Sin is breaking anyone of the commandments not just the 10". Now firstly lets get a few things out of the way. Where did I ever posts to you that sin is not breaking anyone of Gods' commandments? If I have never said such things why say that I have? Secondly if Gods' 10 commandments are a part of God's commandments and God's Word says that if we break anyone of them it is sin then why are you saying "Ummm no"? Then continue agreeing with what I have just said by saying "Sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments not just the 10 commandments? It sounds like your agreeing with me after all but trying to change the argument to something no one is arguing about. So it is not really an "Ummm no" after all is it if sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments and God's 10 commandments are included in the commandments now is it?

Doug Brents said:
Absolutely, living in unrepentant sin will keep you in an unsaved state.

Great and I agree so the argument has just now ended. If sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments which includes God's 10 commandments that you have just agreed to, then Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. So according to the scriptures it is sin to knowingly break God's 4th commandment once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-31.

Doug Brents said:
But not keeping the Sabbath under the New Covenant (which we are today) is not sin unless you believe it is.

According to the scriptures as shown above sin is the transgression of the law and not believing and following what Gods' Word says. Gods 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. These are all of course God's Word not my words which we should believe and follow (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29) because according to the scriptures whatsoever is not of faith in sin according to Romans 14:23.

Doug Brents said:
Heb 14:1-7 - “Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats onlyvegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand. 5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.”

This is repetition. Romans 14 has nothing to do with the Sabbath whatsoever. A detailed scripture response proving this was posted in post # 96 linked already to your claims here that you choose not to respond to.

Doug Brents said:
You are welcome to hold the Sabbath as holy; I hold all days as equal. You honor God in the Sabbath; I honor God in all days. Do not try to force your restriction on me, and I won’t enforce my freedom in Christ on you.

According to the scriptures only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word to break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4: Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:2-9. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Can you show me a scripture that says God's 4th commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest? - There is none. Just the same as there is no scripture anywhere that says all days are equal in God's eyes just the same as there is no scripture that says we are now free in Christ not to believe and follow what God's Word says. According to the scriptures this is unbelief and sin that we are warned against as believers in Hebrews 3:8-19 and Hebrews 4:1-11. Anyhow of course we are all free to believe as we wish that is between us and God. According to the scriptures it is the Words of God we accept or reject that will be our judge come judgement day according to John 12:47-48 and there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed.

Take Care, I only wish you well dear friend.

Doug Brents · Oct 26, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I see. So I ask you about the Mosaic covenants relationship with Gods' new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 and you start talking about, how the Abrahamic covenant related to the Mosiac covenant and you think that is relevant to the question I am asking you? I guess we have a communication breakdown somewhere it seems. Respectfully, I did not ask you where the covenants began. I asked you how the Mosaic covenant relates to Gods' new covenant promise (from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). If you do not know the answer just say so as I am happy to answer the question or if you do not want to answer the question just say so as you do not have to if you do not want to. It is up to you.

Yes, there is a communication breakdown. The relationship between the Mosaic covenant is the same as that between the Abrahamic covenant and the covenant in Christ: replaced!

The Mosaic covenant is a renewal of the Abrahamic covenant, it is not a stand-alone entity. As noted in my previous posts, the Abrahamic covenant (along with the renewal of that covenant with Moses (to include the 10 Commandments)) was completed and done away with when Jesus said “It is finished.”

The New Covenant is not a list of “Do this”s, and “Don’t do that”s. It is written on the hearts of those who belong Christ; as opposed to the Old covenant that was spoken directly by God to individuals until it was written on stone.

LoveGodsWord said:
So, I post you a bunch of scripture from Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 3:20 and Romans 14:23 all of which say that sin is breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following what Gods' Word says which are Gods' Word (not mine),

Now think about your response here. I have posted scripture from Gods Word showing that sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments or not believing or following what God's Word says. Your response is "Ummm no. Sin is breaking anyone of the commandments not just the 10". Now firstly lets get a few things out of the way. Where did I ever posts to you that sin is not breaking anyone of Gods' commandments? If I have never said such things why say that I have? Secondly if Gods' 10 commandments are a part of God's commandments and God's Word says that if we break anyone of them it is sin then why are you saying "Ummm no"? Then continue agreeing with what I have just said by saying "Sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments not just the 10 commandments? It sounds like your agreeing with me after all but trying to change the argument to something no one is arguing about. So it is not really an "Ummm no" after all is it if sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments and God's 10 commandments are included in the commandments now is it?

You were stressing the 10 commandments in your comments. I am stressing all of God’s commandments that are in force at any particular time. Under the OT, the 10 commandments, along with the other 603, were valid and enforced by God. Today, NONE of the OT commands are active since ALL of them were whipped out with the complete fulfillment of the Old Covenant by Christ. The only commands active today are those set forth by God in the NT, and those do not include keeping the Sabbath.

LoveGodsWord said:
Great and I agree so the argument has just now ended. If sin is breaking anyone of God's commandments which includes God's 10 commandments that you have just agreed to, then Gods' 4th commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken according to Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11. So according to the scriptures it is sin to knowingly break God's 4th commandment once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word according to Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; Hebrews 10:26-31.

The only thing you stat here that is untrue is that the 10 Commandments are still part of God’s law today. The moral equivalent of all of them except the 4th is restated in the NT, but the keeping of the Sabbath was not included in the NT.

LoveGodsWord said:
This is repetition. Romans 14 has nothing to do with the Sabbath whatsoever. A detailed scripture response proving this was posted in post # 96 linked already to your claims here that you choose not to respond to.

“One person [you] esteems one day above another; another [me] esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.”

If you don’t believe that the verses above relate to the Sabbath, then you don’t understand God’s law in the NT at all. Note the highlighted phrases above. You place one day (Sabbath) above the others. I hold every day equal. You do so to the Lord. I, to the Lord, do not. We each stand before God on our own belief, and He will judge us on our conviction and adherence to it, not on the letter of the Old Covenant Law.

Now, you believe that the eating is the focus and the days (in which to eat or not) are just a side note. But there is no such stipulation in this passage (or any other). As an individual holds eating or holds a day, so it will be judged of him. Notice verse 4; God is our judge. He is the one to whom we must give account. And He is able to make you stand based on the fact that you esteem one day over another, and He is able to make me stand based on the fact that I esteem all days equal. Who are you to judge me, or I to judge you? Neither of us is God.

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scriptures only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word to break the commandments of God *Romans 3:4: Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Matthew 15:2-9. There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says Gods' 4th commandment has now been abolished

Matt 5:18
John 19:30
Heb 8:13

LoveGodsWord said:
and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. Can you show me a scripture that says God's 4th commandment is abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest?

The above verses show that the OT was completed, and in completion was abolished. The 10 Commandments are a part of the OT, and since the entirety of the OT was abolished, the 10 Commandments were abolished with them. Now, we are not commanded to worship on the Lord’s Day, but we are free to do so if we choose to.

LoveGodsWord · Oct 26, 2021

Doug Brents said:
Yes, there is a communication breakdown. The relationship between the Mosaic covenant is the same as that between the Abrahamic covenant and the covenant in Christ: replaced!

If you did not want to answer the question asked of you just say so. You do not have to if you do not want to.

Doug Brents said:
The Mosaic covenant is a renewal of the Abrahamic covenant, it is not a stand-alone entity. As noted in my previous posts, the Abrahamic covenant (along with the renewal of that covenant with Moses (to include the 10 Commandments)) was completed and done away with when Jesus said “It is finished.”

What is finished? Then it come back to the question I asked you that your not willing to discuss now doesn't it. I did not ask you where the covenants began. I asked you how the Mosaic covenant relates to Gods' new covenant promise (from Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

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