WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

LoveGodsWord said:

Funny thing though, no one is telling you that we are saved by works so I still do not know what your arguing about if I am being honest with you. I did not see anywhere that the person you are posting to is saying we are saved by our works and not by God's free gift of Grace that we receive through faith *Ephesians 2:8-9. Genuine question though. Do we show our faith by believing and following what Gods' Word says or by believing and not obeying what Gods' Word says in your view *see James 2:16-26?

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Its already been said that good works come after one has been saved.

Brightfame52 said:

Its already been said that good works come after one has been saved.

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So basically it seems like what you are saying is we can do whatever we want and once God gives us grace, than we will start obeying? Is this what you're saying? Does judgement come before grace or after?

SabbathBlessings said:

So basically it seems like what you are saying is we can do whatever we want and once God gives us grace, than we will start obeying? Is this what you're saying? Does judgement come before grace or after?

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I dont know what you talking about.

Danthemailman said:

I have compared them and Paul is crystal clear. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness. 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree.

James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Once again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

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Sorry Dan, but action is not the FRUIT of faith. It is the soul, the thing that gives life to, faith. James 2:26 says, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."
Thus, body is to spirit
just as faith is to action.
Now, as Eph 2:8-9 tells us, faith comes BEFORE grace (salvation) is received, because it (faith) is the conduit through which grace is received. Without faith, salvation is not received. And faith without action is dead. Actions of obedience MUST come before salvation is received. What actions? The actions specified in Scripture as leading to salvation.

Danthemailman said:

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

James is also crystal clear, yet you still insist on contradicting Paul and James by putting the cart before the horse and teaching “salvation by works.”

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Abraham was accounted as righteous for his faith. His faith was not only demonstrated by his sacrificing Isaac, but also for all of his actions, from leaving Ur when God told him to on. Again, all the things he DID were the soul of his faith. Without those actions his faith would have been dead (without effect, powerless, worthless).

Danthemailman said:

Both are right, yet actions don’t make our faith real, alive. Actions show that our faith is real, alive. You have it backwards. We show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Show, not establish. Big difference!

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Which make life: the body or the spirit? The spirit gives life to the body. When God breathed into man, man became a living soul. So too with faith. Life is given to faith (the body) by the actions taken (the soul).

Danthemailman said:

Ephesians 2:8,9 certainly is saying there is no physical action/works necessary “in addition” to faith in order to obtain salvation or else Paul is lying when he says we are “not saved by works.”

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Faith IS action. Salvation was not brought to mankind because of any works we had done; we were enemies of God, and did not deserve to be saved. But that does not stop there being actions necessary to receive that salvation.

Danthemailman said:

Romans 10:9,10 does not teach that faith and confession are two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together, as I already thoroughly explained in post #1292.

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I never said differently. All of the actions necessary to receive salvation should be done IMMEDIATELY upon coming to belief in Christ. In Scripture (especially in Acts) there is ALWAYS urgency placed on taking action upon belief. There is never any time wasted from the point of belief before the believer is baptized into Christ and thus saved.

Danthemailman said:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done is crystal clear, yet you still insist on “adding” works to salvation through faith, not works, anyway.

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Again, that is not saying there is nothing that man has to do. It is saying that man, being in a state of enmity with God, did not deserve to be saved. We had not done anything that deserved the life of the Son of God. But God gave His Son to us as a sacrifice to open the door and bring us back into relationship with Him.

Danthemailman said:

You say this out of one side of your mouth, but out of the other side of your mouth you say something different - “must meet conditions/must be obedient enough to be saved/works salvation.” Repentance is a “change of mind” which precedes saving faith in Christ (Acts 20:21) and is not a “complete cessation from sin or else” condition after faith for salvation as some teach.

Obedience which “follows” saving faith in Christ is works. Why can’t you see that? So how much obedience does it take? You could never be obedient enough to earn your salvation, yet you still seek salvation through multiple acts of obedience/works anyway instead of through faith in Christ alone.

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I agree that there is not, and cannot be, a complete cessation from sin. Even Paul wrestled with himself and his inability to stop sinning.
And as you say, repentance does come before salvation as Acts 3:19 says. But it does not precede faith, because it is done in faith. It is part of faith that saves.

Danthemailman said:

Not at all. It makes my point for me…who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.

Here you go again with more sugar coated double talk. Your conditions result in works salvation, in contradiction to salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Period.

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Again, this is not talking about no works being necessary.

Danthemailman said:

More sugar coated double talk and the end result is “salvation by works.” I have often heard those who attend the church of Christ use the healing of Naaman when he dipped in the Jordan river 7 times as an example of receiving remission of sins in the waters of baptism. Yet in the first place, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. Read about it in (Luke 5:12-15). No water is found here.

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It is not the dipping, nor the leprosy, that is my point with Naaman. The point is, as with the other stories listed below, that action was required on the part of the recipient of the blessing. Naaman was not cleansed when he chose to dip (began). He was not cleansed when he dipped 6 times (was part way there). He was cleansed 100% (skin like a baby's) when he had completed what was instructed.

Danthemailman said:

Second, Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins.

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The water does nothing to remove sin, as 1 Pet 3 says. But the Holy Spirit, who meets us in the water, does remove our sin in baptism just as it says in Rom 6:1-5 and Eph 2:11-14.

Danthemailman said:

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse in an effort to uphold “salvation by works.”

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The point is that belief does not save; obedience does. Jesus is not the author of salvation to those who believe in Him. He is the author of salvation to those who OBEY Him.
There are unbelievers everywhere who do things that God says to do. But that does not make them saved, nor does it give them power or blessing.

LoveGodsWord said:

Sadly that statement is not true at all. I prefer the scripture that have already been shared with you that disagree with your claims here. I asked earlier to post me a link from anywhere in this forum where I have ever said we receive Gods' grace through the works of the law? If I have never said or made such claims why are you pretending that I have? Your making claims here that are not truthful as I do not believe we receive grace by the works of the law. Obedience to Gods Word however, is not separate from genuine faith according to the scriptures (already posted) that we receive Gods' Grace through (see James 2:16-26; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 14:23; John 3:36; 1 John 2:3-5; 1 John 5:3-4; 1 John 3:4-9; Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:5 and Titus 2:11-12.

Take Care.

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Yes it is true. Dont you believe Salvation is conditioned upon man doing something ?

LoveGodsWord said:

Agreed. I think this is the problem right here. Perhaps you can pray about it and consider the scriptures already shared with you or ask questions for clarification on what you do not understand.

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I understand enough to now you condition Salvation on what a person does, which is works, and is at odds with Salvation by Grace apart from works.

Brightfame52 said:

You still mixing grace with works, cant do it scripturally ! Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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You are misunderstanding that passage.

He is not talking about "any action whatsoever". He is talking about why we have grace in the first place.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8)
THAT is grace. While we were enemies of God, He sent His Son to die for us and redeem us from Hell. That happened BEFORE the world was even created. We did not deserve it, nor did we earn it, but He did it for us anyway.

But that does not mean there are not things WE must do to receive that blessing.
Scripture very clearly says that we must repent in order to receive that blessing.
Scripture very clearly says that we must confess Jesus' name in order to receive that blessing.
Scripture very clearly says we must be baptized in order to receive that blessing.

LoveGodsWord said:

No I believe no such thing. Perhaps you had a misunderstanding? Salvation however is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says which is God's work in us as we walk in His Spirit through faith.

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Now you denying what you believe. I believe you are doubleminded and dont really know what you believe.

Doug Brents said:

You are misunderstanding that passage.

He is not talking about "any action whatsoever". He is talking about why we have grace in the first place.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8)
THAT is grace. While we were enemies of God, He sent His Son to die for us and redeem us from Hell. That happened BEFORE the world was even created. We did not deserve it, nor did we earn it, but He did it for us anyway.

But that does not mean there are not things WE must do to receive that blessing.
Scripture very clearly says that we must repent in order to receive that blessing.
Scripture very clearly says that we must confess Jesus' name in order to receive that blessing.
Scripture very clearly says we must be baptized in order to receive that blessing.

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Now you condition Salvation on works, on what a man must do !

Brightfame52 said:

Now you condition Salvation on works, on what a man must do !

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If I put a gift on a table, and you pick up that gift and unwrap it, does it cease to be a gift because you had to work to unwrap it? NO!!

It does not cease to be grace because we have to repent, and confess Jesus' name, and be baptized into Christ. These things are faithful obedience to Christ's command. They are not "good works" nor are they "works of the Law". They are part of the faith that is the conduit through which God flows His saving grace into our soul.

LoveGodsWord said:

Oh come on B52 I am telling you that is not what I believe at all so your accusations have no truth to them so your bearing false witness. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith in Gods' Word that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins being justified by the blood of Christ and his death and sacrifice for our sins given as a free gift to all those who have faith. According to the scriptures, obedience to what Gods Word says is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 is obedience to the faith *Romans 1:5 as we believe and follow what his word says *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and does not lead to obeying Gods' Word then our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. According to the scriptures if anything believes God's Word but do not obey what Gods' Word says which is the fruit of genuine faith according to Paul all they have is the dead faith of devils. - James 2:16-26

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You still condition Salvation on what a man does. Thats works.

Doug Brents said:

If I put a gift on a table, and you pick up that gift and unwrap it, does it cease to be a gift because you had to work to unwrap it? NO!!

It does not cease to be grace because we have to repent, and confess Jesus' name, and be baptized into Christ. These things are faithful obedience to Christ's command. They are not "good works" nor are they "works of the Law". They are part of the faith that is the conduit through which God flows His saving grace into our soul.

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Thats a work. You did something to get the gift.

LoveGodsWord said:

Nonsense. I will leave it with you and God as your not telling the truth and making things up no one believes.

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Its plain as the noon day sun, you condition Salvation on what a person does !

Brightfame52 said:

Thats a work. You did something to get the gift.

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Oh really? So the $500 Million ring that was in the box was "earned" by you when you picked up the box and unwrapped it? And all the things you received on Christmas and birthdays were "earned" by you when you unwrapped them?

Hmmm.