WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

LoveGodsWord · Feb 12, 2022

klutedavid said:
To 'believe' in the first century Koine Greek, to believe in someone, is to TRUST (pistis) someone.

And how do you do that exactly? Is someone trusting in Jesus by not doing what Jesus asks us to do?

BobRyan · Feb 12, 2022

Clare73 said:
it's not about falling into lostness, it's about the falling out of the counterfeit faith

To fail to persevere in being fake... is to be genuine. To fail to persevere in being lost is to be saved.

There is no Bible warning against failing to persevere in being lost.

Clare73 · Feb 12, 2022

BobRyan said:
To fail to persevere in being fake... is to be genuine. To fail to persevere in being lost is to be saved.

1) One doesn't persevere in being lost, just as one doesn't persevere in being a human being.

2) The lost both can or cannot persevere in counterfeit faith, as in Buddhists, modern Orthodox Jews, or professing Christians.

Clare73 · Feb 12, 2022

Yes, these warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance. Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy [unto perdition]. The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away - Hebrews 6:6 ... "For if we sin wilfully" - Hebrews 10:26.

For a fuller explanation of my response refer to my post #100 - page 5, on my thread,
< Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >
. . .Rapture Bound

One more time:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Also in 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8.

"We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)

klutedavid · Feb 12, 2022

GDL said:
Not sure what dictionary you'd be talking about. Care to identify it?

According to the Biblical definition (Romans 10:9-13).

The dictionary definition is not really the meaning of 'belief', but the Christian life.

A Christian is a person who believes in Jesus.

Continuous unrepentant sin was the in the contents of the question. You might find the concept of continuous practice of sin or such terminology depending upon what translation of the Bible you use.

So everyone sins and obviously, all continuous sin is, therefore really unrepentant sin. In other words, all Christians are guilty of unrepentant sin because they never stop sinning.

I simply asked if a person who continues to believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord grows in the knowledge and action of obeying God? Yes, no, maybe?

You are asking two separate questions.
Is believing in Jesus sufficient in itself for salvation or the belief in Jesus plus obedience to His teaching.

Romans (10:9-13) states that our salvation is based on that belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus. I have not seen in the New Testament any statements saying, Jesus plus obedience is salvation. A growing knowledge of God and say works would not be the reason for salvation. Since the gospel is a gospel of the grace of God. We are always saved by grace as a gift from God. You cannot assist in that process of salvation. You can make your salvation more pronounced.

Again, my question was simply: Does a person who continues to believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord do the good works God created him or her to do? Yes, no, maybe?

Yes, that is what the new creation is for, good works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

My question again: If a person says and continues to say they believe in Jesus / continues to call on the name of the Lord, and does not obey God - obey Jesus Christ - does this person truly believe in Jesus / call on the name of the Lord?

I think if your saved by the blood of Jesus then, you will more than likely follow Jesus.

Which one of the following should hold true:

The person was saved and then lost salvation?

OR the person never was saved?

There is only one way to be saved and that is by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If a person believes in Jesus and receives the Holy Spirit, then they are saved. Should that person then not believe in Jesus, then they do not have salvation.

GDL · Feb 12, 2022

Rapture Bound said:
Yes, these warning passages are just one of the many means that God utilizes to preserve His children safely into their Heavenly inheritance.

You should be able to answer my last question as to why the premise cannot be actuated.

Rapture Bound said:
Although these warning passages are conditional, there is nothing in these passages stating that any genuine follower of Christ will actually commit apostasy [unto perdition].

What is the precise condition in the Hebrews 6 section?
The discussion is not about a genuine follower of Christ (which I'd take as one who continues to follow), but one who ceases following

Rapture Bound said:
The question, as it pertains to who will actually do so, is simply not revealed; the scenarios described in those verses plainly reveal hypothetical situations ... "If they shall fall away - Hebrews 6:6 ... "For if we sin wilfully" - Hebrews 10:26.

In Hebrews 6:1 the discussion is about "us" and is a 3rd person command - "let us" is a command and says more literally, "we are commanded" (to advance to maturity)
In Hebrews 6:3 the discussion continues being about "we"
Hebrews 6:4-8 is being used to explain ("For") in the context of "we" in 6:1-3
Hebrews 6:9 bookends with "we" and "you"
These warnings are clearly about "Christians" and from the end of Hebrews 5 it's a rebuke for some who have remained in infancy too long for the author's taste. The warning section of Hebrews 6 begins with a command to advance to maturity, then a warning that God may or may not permit the advance at some point, then an illustrated warning that falling away can lead to no repentance, rejection, and being burned up (like dead wood), and then encouragement to get and stay on course.
It's clear who is being warned. The question is, why would this not be taken seriously by those being rebuked, warned, then encouraged to advance? But don't worry about it, it'll never happen, it's just instructional!? The instruction about disciplinary training is elsewhere. This is warning about the real potential of falling away.
BTW, "if they shall fall away" is a translation of a participle being interpreted as a conditional clause. Other translations translate it temporally such as, "and then have fallen away (or have committed apostasy).
Hebrews 10:26 is also a participle being translated as conditional, so we'd have to look more closely to see the argument since it's not as clear as normal conditional structures. But the language again is clearly "we," so it's discussing Christians sinning willfully and the present tense participle is being translated in a continuous action by most translations, which I'd agree with.

GDL · Feb 12, 2022

klutedavid said:
There is only one way to be saved and that is by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If a person believes in Jesus and receives the Holy Spirit, then they are saved. Should that person then not believe in Jesus, then they do not have salvation.

Since this is really what the thread topic is, I'll just focus here. Each of your other answers are entire discussions in themselves. Thanks for answering.

I've highlighted 2 words within your quoted post. My last question is very simple:

Can a Christian lose their salvation?

Yes or no will suffice, if you will please.

GDL · Feb 12, 2022

BobRyan said:
good point.

Failure to keep something is not a sign you never had anything to keep

Or, shedding the double negative, you can't lose what you never had. Correct?

So, I think we're on topic with the OP.

Seems simple.

klutedavid · Feb 12, 2022

GDL said:
Since this is really what the thread topic is, I'll just focus here. Each of your other answers are entire discussions in themselves. Thanks for answering.

I've highlighted 2 words within your quoted post. My last question is very simple:

Can a Christian lose their salvation?

Yes or no will suffice, if you will please.

Since the first axion is that salvation is based on that belief in Jesus. Therefore, yes, that unbelief in Jesus means they are already judged.

GDL · Feb 12, 2022

klutedavid said:
Since the first axion is that salvation is based on that belief in Jesus. Therefore, yes, that unbelief in Jesus means they are already judged.

And with that, I'll just say, thank you. There are no buttons to put forth a simple and meaningful response.

GDL · Feb 12, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Is someone trusting in Jesus by not doing what Jesus asks us to do?

That's a nice simple question. Are you seeking a simple yes, or no?

klutedavid · Feb 12, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
And how do you do that exactly? Is someone trusting in Jesus by not doing what Jesus asks us to do?

The gift of salvation is given to those that believe in Jesus.

Romans 10:9-10
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I don't think I have read in the New Testament, believing in Jesus and doing what he commands. Is the reason for receiving the gift of salvation.

Put it this way.

You cannot possibly be obedient to Jesus without receiving the Holy Spirit. So any measure of obedience to Jesus, relies heavily on that initial reception of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 5:5
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

A work without love as the baseline is not a work.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

You receive the Holy Spirit when you believe in Jesus.

Galatians 3:2
Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?

Hearing the gospel of grace and believing the gospel of grace, prompts the reception of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

SabbathBlessings · Feb 12, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
I would not worry about the crickets too much. You kind of get use to them after a while. There are others that benefit though

It might be fruitful to have you, @GDL and @BobRyan have your own discussion that may benefit others. Incidentally, in my afternoon bible study of Galatians I came across this video on the topic which I personally found an easy way to break down justification by faith for those who might be interested.

Justification by Faith Alone | The Gospel in Galatians | Amazing Facts

The sermon starts at 9 minutes in.

God bless!

LoveGodsWord · Feb 12, 2022

klutedavid said:
Since the first axion is that salvation is based on that belief in Jesus. Therefore, yes, that unbelief in Jesus means they are already judged.

Good for you. So your in agreement now with @GDL that we can lose our salvation?

LoveGodsWord · Feb 12, 2022

klutedavid said:
The gift of salvation is given to those that believe in Jesus.

Exactly! So if a believer departs the faith to become an unbeliever and returns back to known unrepentant sin what happens to their gift?

LoveGodsWord · Feb 12, 2022

LoveGodsWord said: ↑Is someone trusting in Jesus by not doing what Jesus asks us to do?

Response...

GDL said:
That's a nice simple question. Are you seeking a simple yes, or no?

Yes I did not think it was too hard a question Gary. Although I do not think the person I asked this question to answered it from what I can see.

God bless.

klutedavid · Feb 13, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Good for you. So your in agreement now with @GDL that we can lose our salvation?

Certainly.

klutedavid · Feb 13, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Exactly! So if a believer departs the faith to become an unbeliever and returns back to known unrepentant sin what happens to their gift?

The failure to maintain that trust in Jesus Christ, is the sole cause of losing eternal life.

Christians sin and so do unbelievers, that is a fact.

LoveGodsWord · Feb 13, 2022

klutedavid said:
The failure to maintain that trust in Jesus Christ, is the sole cause of losing eternal life. Christians sin and so do unbelievers, that is a fact.

Good then why all the argument before when scripture was provided showing that Christians can depart the faith and lose their salvation? I take it that you do not believe in OSAS then.

klutedavid · Feb 13, 2022

LoveGodsWord said:
Good then why all the argument before when scripture was provided showing that Christians can depart the faith and lose their salvation? I take it that you do not believe in OSAS then.

Obviously I don't.

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