WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

LoveGodsWord said:

Of course Jesus is the living Word of God *John 1:1-4-14; revealed to us today through His Spirit in the written Word of God (scripture).

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That WORD is near you and in your hear and mind, that is the WORD we preach. Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

GDL said:

Thanks kd. Some of Romans 10:8 is comparable to what I covered in 10:9. It certainly does call out Israel to confess Jesus is YHWH, which is a tremendous issue for them to acknowledge. I'm reading a book covering some areas of the Tanakh that speak of Messiah. I've read others. Great information and reminders of how He's there from Genesis on for us and Israel to see.

I also like how you're connecting the resurrection verses, which are vital to who He is and proof of it. Romans 1:4 says more of the importance of what the resurrection signified - ultimately that Jesus is God just as 10:8 & 9 say.

You and I have no disagreement on the centrality and evidence of our Lord to everything now.

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Your on fire now.

That testimony of Jesus Christ and that fervent love of the brethren, have we missed anything?

klutedavid said:

1 Corinthians 12:13
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

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I don't know what this passage has to do with whether salvation can be lost or not. You just copy and paste scripture in the abstract without explaining how it ties into your case.

klutedavid replied [post #1021], "Puzzling clause, "they have experienced saving faith"....
"There is no such thing as a, 'saving faith'? We are always are saved by the grace of Jesus and only the grace of Jesus."

My Reply :

Here's more thoughts on the relationship between grace and "saving faith"... that faith which qualifies a person for justification [i.e - forgiveness of sin and right-standing before God].

Romans 3:20-24,"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ [pistis Christou] unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Philippians 3:9,"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ ['pistis Christou'], the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

"The righteousness which is of God" can only be obtained by virtue of being in 'union with Christ' [being found 'in him']. This righteousness originates from God through the faith[fulness] of Christ, and is imputed to all those who do not trust in their righteousness (or moral acts) in order for their justification, but instead have believed in Christ's.

Those who trust in their moral actions and performance as the ground of their justification before God cannot be justified in the eyes of God , and consequently will never receive assurance that their sins have been forgiven (while, as long as) they remain in that mind-set. The enemy of our souls, Satan, doesn't want any person who imagines or considers themselves to be accepted in the eyes of God to know that they aren't; or, that they can and will receive the blessed assurance of their salvation, that is, the forgiveness of their sins, their acceptance before God, and a future Heavenly home by solely placing their trust in Christ's righteousness and not any of their own.

Justification comes as a free gift by the grace of God through the redemption that is in Christ. Faith, trust in Christ, is the sole instrument through which God’s grace of justification is received. < Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation? >

Ephesians 2:8-9 and "Saving Faith" :

William Lane Craig breaks down the Greek construction of these verses and addresses the critical question, "Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce?" in the following video < Is Faith A Gift From God or Something We Produce? | Reasonable Faith >

"You might say, but didn’t we read in Ephesians 2:8-9 that faith is a gift of God, not something that we can produce. Look at Ephesians 2:8-9 again. Paul says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast.” Doesn’t this show that faith is simply God’s gift to you and not something that you do on your own? I think that is incorrect and I think demonstrably so.

Let me ask those of you who are our vigilant Logos software users to tell us what is the gender of the word for “faith” that is used in verse 8? I should mention here that in Greek, as in modern day German, every noun has a gender. There are three genders – masculine, feminine, and neuter. It is the same in Greek. Now, what is the gender of the word pistis or faith? Feminine. So it is feminine gender for pistis or faith. What is the gender of the pronoun in verse 8 “this.” Neuter! Touto is the word. It is neuter. So the antecedent of “this” is not the word “faith.” You would have to have a feminine pronoun in order to refer to “faith.” Rather, what the word “this” refers to is the whole preceding clause, namely, salvation by grace through faith. That is not your own doing. This is the gift of God. This is the way God has elected to set it up; he is going to save by his grace everyone who has faith in Christ. That is not your own doing. But it does not teach that saving faith is the gift of God. That is grammatically prohibited.

In fact, I want to say here something about the way our Reformed brethren treat the idea of faith. For many of them they think that if I exercise faith in Christ, if I respond to God’s grace by receiving it through faith, that this is somehow my meriting or winning salvation. It is something I do; I have faith and so I have somehow done some meritorious work which is excluded of course by Paul because salvation is by grace not by meritorious works. But in so saying I think they have completely misunderstood Paul. When you read Paul, he always opposes faith to works. For Paul, faith is the antithesis of works. He does not think that placing your faith in Christ is a work much less a meritorious work. Paul always contrasts faith and works. So, in receiving Christ by faith in acceding to God’s grace, you are not doing anything meritorious to save yourself. You are simply yielding, as it were, to the grace of God and allowing it to do its saving work and justifying work in your life. That is not in any sense a meritorious work."

Clare73 said:

I didn't say "uphold," I said "preserve."

Or is it your lack of understanding?

God works through means or second causes.

You pray for a good crop, he doesn't zap the crop, he sends rain and good weather, the means or causes of a good crop.

He keeps us from falling not by holding us up, but by warning us of the things that will make us fall.
The born again are sensitive to the warnings, heed them and are preserved from falling.

Those of counterfeit faith neglect or ignore the warnings and end up falling out of their counterfeit faith.

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Please review and address the under listed:

1. Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

2. Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

3. Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

4. Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone, a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

5. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The recurring theme in these texts is "he that endures/overcomes to the end". The NT is full of similar exhortations to the saved. It will be superfluous to quote them all because the above is sufficient for the objective mind.

There is a requirement from these scriptures for the saved to exercise their free will to persevere, abide, endure or overcome the trials and tribulations inherent in the Christian journey in other to enjoy eternal life in the next age. IOW, the responsibility is on the saved to ENDURE to the end of his pilgrim journey on earth!

The scriptures never said the onus is on the Lord. But your doctrine denies this responsibility - the saved should live as he pleases because the Lord will not let him fall.

Trivalee said:

Please review and address the under listed:
1. Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
2. Matt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
3. Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
4. Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna and will give him a white stone and in the stone, a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
5. Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

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The recurring theme in these texts is "he that endures/overcomes to the end". The NT is full of similar exhortations to the saved. It will be superfluous to quote them all because the above is sufficient for the objective mind.

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This was explained. . .twice.

There is a requirement from these scriptures for the saved to exercise their free will to persevere, abide, endure or overcome the trials and tribulations inherent in the Christian journey in other to enjoy eternal life in the next age. IOW, the responsibility is on the saved to ENDURE to the end of his pilgrim journey on earth!
The scriptures never said the onus is on the Lord.

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"Onus"? . . .to preserve his sons?!!
Is it an "onus" to preserve your children from harm with warnings?

More knowledge of Scripture reveals:

"Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He. . .set his seal of ownership on us and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."(2 Corinthians 1:21-22)

Also in 2 Corinthians 5:5; 1 Corinthians 1:8.

"We were made heirs, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in accordance with the purpose of his will." (Ephesians 1:11)

"You who. . .have believed in him were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13-14)

". . .for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:13)

"Those he predestined, he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Romans 8:30)

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

"All that the Father gives me will come to me." (John 6:37)

"I shall lose none of all that he has given me," (John 6:39)

But your doctrine denies this responsibility - the saved should live as he pleases because the Lord will not let him fall.

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Explained. . .twice.

Rapture Bound said:

I have faith and so I have somehow done some meritorious work which is excluded of course by Paul because salvation is by grace not by meritorious works. But in so saying I think they have completely misunderstood Paul. When you read Paul, he always opposes faith to works. For Paul, faith is the antithesis of works. He does not think that placing your faith in Christ is a work much less a meritorious work. Paul always contrasts faith and works. So, in receiving Christ by faith in acceding to God’s grace, you are not doing anything meritorious to save yourself.

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All these highlighted statements are only in the context of initially receiving Christ as I've underlined, correct? IOW, Paul does not oppose faith + works for the Christian, correct? And Paul does not oppose Christians working with God to accomplish their salvation, correct?

GDL replied,[post #1110]:

"All these highlighted statements are only in the context of initially receiving Christ as I've underlined, correct? IOW, Paul does not oppose faith + works for the Christian, correct? And Paul does not oppose Christians working with God to accomplish their salvation, correct?"

My Reply :

Yes, all of the highlighted statements relate to how a person receives a justified status before God. Paul only opposes faith to works, and faith to working with God in order to accomplish their salvation in the context of justification.

LoveGodsWord said:

You will find yourself arguing with yourself if you continue to make arguments no one believe or has said to you. BTW "believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

Take Care.

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So LGW, you are saying that a person must believe in Jesus first and then obey Jesus by performing works. If the works are of a sufficient quantity and quality, then and only then, God grants the Holy Spirt.

That is what you just said.

BTW "believing" in Jesus is not separate from obeying what Jesus says and God only gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey him according to Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

LoveGodsWord said:

Of course Jesus is the living Word of God *John 1:1-4-14; revealed to us today through His Spirit in the written Word of God (scripture).

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So the WORD is not the scripture?

LoveGodsWord said:

I do not think anyone here has ever said to you that they are doing the fathers will to be saved apart from Grace and faith in Christ and Him crucified, so why pretend that they are? According to the scriptures however knowing God is linked very strongly in the scriptures to believing and obeying what God's Word says. I think this is the part you are missing in your posts here. As posted earlier, 2 Timothy 2:19 shows that Jesus know them that are His and they are those who are departing from iniquity (sin). John states the same in 1 John 3:6 where he says that here by we know that we know him when we keep His commandments. Once again John is agreeing with Paul showing that those who know God are being obedient to what God's Word says. This is in agreement with James who says that if we say we believe but do not obey what God's Word says this is not genuine faith or the dead faith of devils in James 2:13-26. So those who God knows as his are obeying what God's Word says and are not practicing sin which is a sign of someone that is born again who knows God *1 John 3:6. Therefore according to the scriptures, knowing God is obeying God and not knowing God is disobeying God. When Jesus says I never knew you and connect this to you who practice sin, and in [21] says it is those who do the will of the Father the scriptures are saying that no one can claim to know God if they do not believe and obey what God's Word says.

Not much into commentaries but found this one interesting

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
I never knew you - That is, I never approved of your conduct; never loved you; never regarded you as my friends. See Psalm 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Corinthians 8:3. This proves that, with all their pretensions, they had never been true followers of Christ. Jesus will not then say to false prophets and false professors of religion that he had once known them and then rejected them; that they had been once Christians and then had fallen away; that they had been pardoned and then had apostatized but that he had never known them - they had never been true christians. Whatever might have been their pretended joys, their raptures, their hopes, their self-confidence, their visions, their zeal, they had never been regarded by the Saviour as his true friends. I do not know of a more decided proof that Christians do not fall from grace than this text. It settles the question; and proves that whatever else such people had, they never had any true religion. See 1 John 2:19

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Barnes seems to be in agreement to the above scriptures already provided here. Even those who depart the faith Jesus will proclaim I never new you because they were never true Christians by departing the faith.

1 John 2:19 being a good example as well. [19] They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

What is being shown here is that if we 'depart the faith" even if we were once practicing Christians at the time we were in the faith because we depart the faith the scripture is using the same language "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

So when Jesus says he never knew those who practice sin this can also include those who went out and returned to unbelief and known unrepentant sin.


Take Care.

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You said the following.

This is in agreement with James who says that if we say we believe but do not obey what God's Word says this is not genuine faith or the dead faith of devils in James 2:13-26.

Can you print James 2:13-26

I want to see if your quotation supports your clause, 'do not obey what God's Word says'?

GDL [post #1111], "liked" my reply :

Although I appreciate your "like" GDL, I'm not so sure
that you would have made that response if you were aware
that I also believe that once a person has been justified,
their glorification [eternal inheritance in Heaven] is
assured ; that is, "OJAJ" ["Once Justified, Always Justified"].

Rapture Bound said:

GDL [post #1111], "liked" my reply :

Although I appreciate your "like" GDL, I'm not so sure
that you would have made that response if you were aware
that I also believe that once a person has been justified,
their glorification [eternal inheritance in Heaven] is
assured ; that is, "OJAJ" ["Once Justified, Always Justified"].

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I don't really care for these choices of "like" etc. But I go along with them at times for simplicity. I didn't use agree because I'm leaving room for what I'm not certain of.

So, you like OJAJ instead of OSAS for whatever reason. I personally don't like the Justified > Sanctified > Glorified way of labeling Salvation. I see the Text clearly telling us we're Saved > Being Saved > Will be Saved, so it's all Salvation. And, for example, I see Sanctification being used for the first 2, so to use it technically for only the second phase is not accurate.

Using your OJAJ, I agree there is this concept for some. The language of the Text seems to clearly say this. But I see the Christian playing a part in it all. For explanatory purposes I'm going to use this terminology: Entrance > Walk > Destination.

The entire Plan is God's. The work to institute the entire Plan is God's. God placed the Gate. God paved the Way. God created the Destination. We've done and could do nothing to do any of this. It's all His Work and not ours. It's nothing we could or can ever do. It is a gift He gives us under certain conditions that He and only He has specified.

God is working and teaching to draw us to believe in His Son. God has commanded humanity to believe in the name of His Son. Up to this point in Salvation, we have done absolutely nothing and could do nothing to receive His gift of Salvation that He commands humanity to receive.

Jesus commanded unbelievers to work to receive this gift of God's Salvation through believing the information that God teaches about His Son. To believe in Jesus as God commands is thus to also obey God's command to believe in His Son, whether or not we knew of His command. When we believe we also obey.

Up to this point of Entering the Gate, which God built, and God worked to bring us to and show us, it's not that we have done nothing - we have worked to hear and learn what God is teaching. But this minor work we did in response to all that God has done and is doing, does not qualify us for any wages nor give us any reason to boast. It has all been God's doing, by His grace and mercy, and He reaches out to hand us a gift and we reach out to receive it. He opens the narrow Gate He created and led us to, and we walk through it in faith and in obedience to His command to enter the narrow Gate.

Then, we Walk the narrow Way beyond the narrow Gate. We do this under God's power and by God's Spirit He has given us in the new heart He has given us. Again, we see all that God has done when we believed Him and obeyed Him to walk through the Gate. Under God's guidance and power, we Walk with Him in continued faith and obedience to Him, learning from Him, retaining what we learn and being reminded by Him as necessary, and we obey what He teaches us and instills in us - makes a part of us. This is a process of growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as commanded by God. This is the advance from infancy (Entrance) to maturity (Walk) and growing in loving God, neighbor, and one-another as also commanded. This is also part of doing the Good Works God has created for us to do and created us to do with Him.

We Walk continuously with Him in increasing faith and obedience and love under His teaching, guidance, protection, and empowerment until we reach the Destination at the time He has planned for us to cease drawing breath here, or the time He has established for the Salvation Process for humanity to terminate.

The issue we're discussing is whether or not: (1) we do not actually Enter but pretend we did; (2) we can decide to walk or fall away once we have Entered and thus also whether God forces us to stay against our will; (3) God makes certain all who Enter do reach the Destination.

I was trained and ordained under OSAS soteriology. I have been trained to exegete Scripture, mainly Greek. I watched a church & seminary split over at minimum the Gospel. I went into years of isolated self-study in the original languages asking only God to guide me. I've studied and taught to some degree every verse in context in the NT that uses the forms of the word "save." I've studied every NT verse in context that speaks of faith, justify, sanctify, glorify, grace, work, etc. I've sat and read the NT many times and in one such reading was led to note in the margins every time I noticed a concept of obedience. My notations were extensive. I have a very lengthy document I've made and studied that lists and details to some degree, every command in the NT (1,000 of them +/-). I've noted that every important word or phrase (e.g. Love, Children of God, Faith, Abide, etc.) has obedience to God directly and closely associated with it, and that Faith and Obedience are used interchangeably at times, so at minimum they're highly connected.

I've come to see the warnings about falling away to not be something to be explained away as just some detail that teaches us how He keeps us from falling away. I no longer see every such detail as something we force into a OSAS system of interpretation.

I think the message from beginning to end of the Text is that God will have a creation that functions as He designed and wills it to function. This includes those who willingly Enter HIS PLAN, and willingly and lastingly Walk with Him along the way He created and specifies until He by His Grace coupled with our working with Him under willing and lasting subjection to His Grace to the Destination He has created. All else will go away and we can finally and eternally live where Righteousness dwells. I'm looking forward to it.

This is on the fly. I'm sure I can state it in other ways and if I read it later will probably want to change the way I stated something. Good enough for now.

God says He foreknew those who would love Him, which is to obey Him and for them He made a Plan. Jesus said early on that the time now is that God is seeking those who will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and Truth. The title "YHWH's Christ" and this word we use - "GOD" - are not something we use once and can stop using in Spirit and Truth. They are words and titles that demand eternal subordination and conformity to His will and standards. He's remaking HIS CREATION to be what HE has determined it will be. This doesn't seem that difficult and now that I'm on this thread and thinking about it once again, I'm not so certain that all 3 choices don't have merit - some enter and abide - some enter and decide other things are more important and so walk away - some pretend entrance and walking. I know He will judge it all as He has determined, and I know we can find Scripture that seems to address all 3.

I’m going to present these verses as part of the topic of this thread. I’ll let David – LGW – determine whether, or not we proceed. I’m just using an English translation and looking at very little Greek to begin. I’m going to format it based upon how I see the points being stated:

Luke 8:5-15 5 "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed,

• some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it.
• 6 "Some fell on rock; and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture.
• 7 "And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it.
• 8 "But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold."

When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" 9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, "What does this parable mean?" 10 And He said, "To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that`Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand1.' 11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

• 12 "Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
• 13 "But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
• 14 "Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
• 15 "But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

A few questions:

1. Can we set aside our soteriological systems under which you've been instructed and just read and without bias take out from (exegete) Scripture what Jesus says?
2. If you see that the first point ultimately says they did not believe and thus were not saved, then can such people sit in pews and pretend to believe and be saved?
3. How do you explain the 2nd group when Jesus says, they hear the word of God, receive the word of God (seed) with joy, they have no root, they believe for a while, they get tempted, they fall away? OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
4. They hear, they go out, they get choked out (thanks MMA), they bring no fruit to maturity (I will note that maturity of fruit here applies not only to the next group, but also to wherever maturity vs. infancy and fruits of the Spirit are discussed in NT Scripture). OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?
5. What means: good ground; hearing the word with a noble and good heart; (some Greek here) hold fast; and bear fruit in endurance? OSAS or OJAJ (whatever you prefer), or LOS (loss of salvation), or never saved?

Post #996:

True faith saves and justifies.
True faith obeys.
But it is not faith's obedience which saves or justifies, it is only faith itself, apart from its works which saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:3, Romans 4:5).

And that's because "Salvation is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10, Revelation 19:1),
his and his alone! (Revelation 4:11, Revelation 7:12)
Man cannot say he contributed anything. . .whatsoever! (Ephesians 2:9; Romans 4:21;
1 Corinthians 1:29).
For God neither gives his glory to nor shares his glory with another! (Isaiah 48:5, Isaiah 42:8)

Having been to the third heaven (2 Corinthians 12:1-8) and given understanding of its importance and necessity, Paul is most emphatic that salvation and justification are apart from faith's works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 4:2; Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20-21; Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11), but which necessary obedience (faith's works) leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19) of sanctification (not salvation or justification), which sanctification is God's will for the believer
(1 Thessalonians 4:3).

One either believes the clear and unequivocal Biblical testimony above, or tries to unseat it.