WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry I do not believe you.

You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say.

So, like Clare says, just more run around. That is all you do.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say. So, like Clare says, just more run around. That is all you do.

Sorry dear friend but I do not believe that is true at all. Of course you are free to believe as you wish, as there is nothing that is hidden that shall not be made plain come judgement day according to the scriptures *Luke 8:17. I hope only the best for you and do not judge you because according to the scriptures it is only the words of God we accept or reject that become our judge come judgement day according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. Our words and opinions do not really matter much in Gods' eyes. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. I believe I have shared Gods' Word with you that show why I do not believe you so let's be friendly and agree to disagree. What you do with Gods' Word that has been shared with you is now between you and God.

Take Care.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Of course this is true, but what is NOT TRUE is your presumption that our actions can lead to loss of salvation. And you haven't proven it with very clear verses.

This statement appears to be in direct conflict with scripture, that one can’t lose their salvation through their choices. To me this is just common sense and its what the whole Bible teaches, everything is conditional.

Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

It doesn’t get more clearer than this.

Or this:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

Many more scriptures like these throughout the Bible.

The story of Saul and Judas amoung many others are good lessons to learn from.

The bigger question is why would you want to disobey God by breaking the law of God while claiming to be a Christian who loves God? Why is this even an argument? Sin comes from the devil 1 John 3:8 living righteously though faith which is established through our obedience Romans 3:31 and how we show love to God. John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6 seems like it should be a given for those seeking to do the will of God. God’s will for us is not to sin, which is breaking His law. 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 God writes His laws in our hearts and minds in the New Covenant. Hebrews 8:10, Jeremiah 31:33 They are written in our heart becuase we obey out of love John 14:15, John 15:10, 1 John 5:3 and written in our minds so we remember to do them. James 1:22, Romans 2:13, Revelation 22:14. In the New Covenant Jesus is our Mediator and with His great sacrifice we can be made new through baptism and His Spirit, walking in newness means walking with Christ without sin and if we slip and fall with true repentance we can be forgiven and made new again. True repentance means being truly sorry and turning from sin to Christ. Jesus provides us the Holy Spirit so we can obey. John 14:15-18

The sheep of Jesus hears His voice and follows His example John 15:10 and He knows us through our obedience. 1 John 2:4 Matthew 7:23. If you think there is a short cut to the narrow path, that we can do whatever we want and be saved, thats your free will to believe that but scriptures show a different story. I don’t think its wise based on scripture to claim that Jesus is going to save us, but choose not to follow God’s Word which includes obeying God’s laws. Why would a saved person even want to do this?

Be well and take care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say. So, like Clare says, just more run around. That is all you do.

Sorry dear friend but that is not true at all.

Of course it is true. And I'm not the only one who is pointing it out to you. You are in denial.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
You've got some real pat answers here, don't you. You don't engage anything or anybody, really. You just say you don't believe them, but you FAIL to even attempt to refute anything they say. So, like Clare says, just more run around. That is all you do.

Of course it is true. And I'm not the only one who is pointing it out to you. You are in denial.

I see a lot of detailed responses from @LoveGodsWord so anyone here can do a simple look on this thread to know this statement is not accurate and his post was taken out of context here. Also this is a Christian forum and I believe we are supposed to address the post, not the poster so claiming someone is in denial because you disagree with them, seems like we should avoid these types of comments.

Be well and God bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Of course this is true, but what is NOT TRUE is your presumption that our actions can lead to loss of salvation. And you haven't proven it with very clear verses.

This statement appears to be in direct conflict with scripture

Actually, your view is in direct conflict with Scripture. This is how and why.

You believe that salvation can be ultimately be lost, and you used John 10:27 as proof that lifestyle is involved in whether a person will either perish or not. You claimed v.27 was a condition for either recieving eternal life or never perishing. I proved that v.27 isn't a condition for either receiving eternal life or never perishing by the FACT that there are NO words that create a conditional clause. v.27 is a simple statement, nothing more. It does NOT effect or define anything in v.28, as you have been claiming.

In fact, v.27 begins with "My sheep". So, who is Jesus referring to? Obviously saved people, which are believers. This proves that what follows is just a description of what saved people do.

There is nothing in v.27 that says a person becomes one of His sheep IF they hear Him and follow Him. But that is basically what you were saying. And is untrue.

So, from your flawed understanding of v.27, and your flawed application of that NON-condition to v.28, you believe that only those who hear and follow Him (lifestyle) will receive eternal life (which would have to be at the end of their life) and therefore not perish.

So, your earlier comment about my using verses "out of context" was wrong. It is you who misunderstand verses and then misapply them in the very context that they appear.

Jesus taught very clearly WHEN a person possesses eternal life. John 5:24. He said "those believing HAVE eternal life". This would obviously mean that from the MOMENT one believes they possess eternal life. So it is THIS verse that is a companion verse to John 10:28.

Those who believe have been given eternal life. And, those given eternal life shall never perish. That is the point of v.28.

It's NOT about one's lifestyle that determines whether they will ultimately perish or not.

It's ALL about what Jesus Christ did when we believe in Him for salvation. He gives us eternal life, and it is on that basis the recipient of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Now, if you still disagree with me, that's between you and God, because His Word is very clear about who will and who will not perish. And it has nothing to do with lifestyle, as you have been claiming.

ALL of the verses that you think teach that a saved person CAN perish are based on the FALSE premise of v.27.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I see a lot of detailed responses from @LoveGodsWord so anyone here can do a simple look on this thread to know this statement is not accurate and his post was taken out of context here.

I have already shown that YOU have taken John 10:28 out of context by your flawed understanding of v.27, which is NOT a conditional clause at all.

By correcting that flaw, we easily see that v.28 IS absolutely teaching eternal security.

Also this is a Christian forum and I believe we are supposed to address the post, not the poster so claiming someone is in denial because you disagree with them, seems like we should avoid these types of comments.

When truth is presented from Scripture and a person says "I don't believe you" meaning the verse presented, they ARE in denial.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I have already shown that YOU have taken John 10:28 out of context by your flawed understanding of v.27, which is NOT a conditional clause at all.

By correcting that flaw, we easily see that v.28 IS absolutely teaching eternal security.


When truth is presented from Scripture and a person says "I don't believe you" meaning the verse presented, they ARE in denial.

God is the authority on His Word and the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 which is given to those who obey John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

The scripture is there for you to read. If God wanted His word to be two scriptures than the Bible would be a lot smaller than it is.

God bless and take care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God is the authority on His Word and the Holy Spirit will teach us all things John 14:26 which is given to those who obey John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32

Even legalistic unbelievers, very moral, can obey commands of God. The problem is, that just won't work to get into heaven. Example: Matt 7:21-23.

What is needed are open eyes and ears.

The scripture is there for you to read.

I've pointed out where your error is, that has led you to discount John 10:28 being a verse that plainly teaches eternal security. Are you now reading it correctly?

If God wanted His word to be two scriptures than the Bible would be a lot smaller than it is.

Huh? Of course there is a lot more in the Bible. The full account of creation, the full account of the chosen people, the Jews. And the full account of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who provided salvation to anyone who will believe in Him for it.

Why are you so negative about the 2 verses I shared? They are CLEAR to those who have open eyes and ears. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Maybe not. You will have to answer that.

But the truth has been fully explained. You can NO LONGER use your flawed understanding of John 10:27 to guide your flawed understanding of v.28.

When those blinders are removed and you are seeing correctly, you will understand that from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24.

And from THAT MOMENT that they possess eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That is what Jesus taught.

If you still don't agree, after having been corrected, then it appears that you are not open to correction at this point.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that says lifestyle is key to salvation, or that it even has a place in salvation.

Lifestyle is what comes, or ought to, after salvation, when the person IS already saved and secure.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Even legalistic unbelievers, very moral, can obey commands of God. The problem is, that just won't work to get into heaven. Example: Matt 7:21-23.

What is needed are open eyes and ears.


I've pointed out where your error is, that has led you to discount John 10:28 being a verse that plainly teaches eternal security. Are you now reading it correctly?


Huh? Of course there is a lot more in the Bible. The full account of creation, the full account of the chosen people, the Jews. And the full account of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who provided salvation to anyone who will believe in Him for it.

Why are you so negative about the 2 verses I shared? They are CLEAR to those who have open eyes and ears. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Maybe not. You will have to answer that.

But the truth has been fully explained. You can NO LONGER use your flawed understanding of John 10:27 to guide your flawed understanding of v.28.

When those blinders are removed and you are seeing correctly, you will understand that from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24.

And from THAT MOMENT that they possess eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That is what Jesus taught.

If you still don't agree, after having been corrected, then it appears that you are not open to correction at this point.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that says lifestyle is key to salvation, or that it even has a place in salvation.

Lifestyle is what comes, or ought to, after salvation, when the person IS already saved and secure.

Do you think Saul and Judas will be in heaven? They once believed in Jesus.

I have no blinders, because I believe in the teachings of the whole bible. You have not really proved anything nor addressed the scripture posted other than one verse that you simply state your opinion.

What I do think we should take the warnings that Jesus gives seriously. Now we have time to make adjustments, but when He comes people will have already chosen sides. Revelation 22:11

This warning here by Jesus seems to indicate they are people who think they will be saved, but doing their will over God's, which unfortunately I see a lot of people trying to convince themselves why they don't need to obey and that is the will of God.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Lawlessness is sin (i.e. breaking God's laws) 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7, Romans 3:20 and breaking one commandment is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12, Matthew 5:19. You don't keep the commandments to work to get into heaven, you keep them because you love God. Not sure why this is so hard to understand when scripture plainly tells us. For this is the LOVE of God that we keep His commandments 1 John 5:3 If you LOVE Me, keep MY commandments John 14:15, Showing mercy to thousands who LOVE Me, and keep MY commandments Exodus 20:6. What matters IS keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19, the saints keeps the commandments of God Revelation 14:12 Who does not want you to show love to God, it is certainly not God who wants you to sin. It's that "other" spirit we are warned about throughout scripture that deceives the whole world.

Funny you never address why would a saved person would want to break God's laws.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree because you will never convince me that I can live a sinful life and as long as I believe I will be saved, when clear scripture tells us otherwise. If you are willing to take that risk, that is your free will. We can be confident in our salvation when we are doing the will of God. Obeying God is not legalistic as you put it unless you want to call Jesus legalistic. John 15:10

God bless and take care.

 

[GDL]

You don't keep the commandments to work to get into heaven, you keep them because you love God

Are you absolutely sure about this?

If He created you in Christ Jesus to do good works and you don't do good works, or if you stop doing good works and revert back to your old ways, are you saved and getting into Heaven?

Is it just that we keep God's commandments because we love God, or is keeping His commandments the same as loving Him, and loving Him the same as keeping His commandments?

BTW, I'm enjoying your focus on obeying Him.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Are you absolutely sure about this?

If He created you in Christ Jesus to do good works and you don't do good works, or if you stop doing good works and revert back to your old ways, are you saved and getting into Heaven?

Is it just that we keep God's commandments because we love God, or is keeping His commandments the same as loving Him, and loving Him the same as keeping His commandments?

BTW, I'm enjoying your focus on obeying Him.

Perhaps you misunderstood. I don't think we should ever stop doing good works or stop obeying. Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works. We are saved by grace though our faith, but someone who has true faith will obey God. We don't obey to be saved; we obey because we love.

We keep the commandments because we love God, and this is love according to God that we keep His commandments!

I hope this clarifies for you and I enjoy your focus as well on obeying God. Amen!

God bless

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why are you so negative about the 2 verses I shared? They are CLEAR to those who have open eyes and ears. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Maybe not. You will have to answer that.

But the truth has been fully explained. You can NO LONGER use your flawed understanding of John 10:27 to guide your flawed understanding of v.28.

When those blinders are removed and you are seeing correctly, you will understand that from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24.

And from THAT MOMENT that they possess eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That is what Jesus taught.

If you still don't agree, after having been corrected, then it appears that you are not open to correction at this point.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that says lifestyle is key to salvation, or that it even has a place in salvation.

Lifestyle is what comes, or ought to, after salvation, when the person IS already saved and secure.

Do you think Saul and Judas will be in heaven?

Wow. I said all that, and this is your response??? Are you not interested in a real discussion? Or just giving your opinion and silly questions.

We know that King Saul WAS saved. In fact, Samuel came back from the dead and told him that he would join Samuel the next day. 1 Sam 28:19 - The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

When Saul died the next day, he joined Samuel in Paradise.

They once believed in Jesus.

otoh, you have no evidence that Judas ever believed. In fact, Jesus made clear that Judas NEVER believed.

John 6-
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

In v.64 Jesus put together those who did not believe with "who" (the one who) would betray him.

Then, in v.70-71 Jesus makes that one of His 12 was a devil. Would Jesus EVER say that about one who had believed? You may opine so, but there's no evidence for it.

I have no blinders, because I believe in the teachings of the whole bible.

I have to disagree with you. I proved that your view of John 01:28 was based on very flawed premise about v.27. With correction of that flaw, your premise of v.28 disappears.

Yet, after I've gone all through that, you have nothing to say about it. Totally ignore it, in fact. That's not how to have a discussion. You can't ignore my points when I don't ignore yours.

You have not really proved anything nor addressed the scripture posted other than one verse that you simply state your opinion.

This is an unbelievably biased comment. I have PROVEN that your view of 10:27 was WRONG WRONG WRONG. But you act as if I'm wrong without even trying to prove that I am wrong.

What I do think we should take the warnings that Jesus gives seriously. Now we have time to make adjustments, but when He comes people will have already chosen sides. Revelation 22:11

Those who have entrusted (believed on Him) their souls to Jesus Christ based on what He has done for them HAVE RECEIVED and POSSESS eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH.

The Bible SAYS this. But it is clear from your posts that you do not believe this.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

So many people don't have any idea what Jesus was teaching here. The entire basis for the crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was based on their works. Just like your ideas.

There is no mention of their faith at all. If they ever HAD believed in Him for salvation, He wouldn't have said "I never knew you".

Funny you never address why would a saved person would want to break God's laws.

Funny you say that when you never address my verses and explain how and why I cannot be correct. Like the other poster, you just claim I'm wrong without any evidence.

But, to address your silly question, of course saved people break God's laws. All the time. Are you that naive? King David raped and murdered. One Corinthian was sleeping with his step mother. Etc, etc. But you are in bondage to the erroneous thinking that lifestyle will get you either saved or condemned. Neither is correct. Both are a lie from Satan.

We will probably just have to agree to disagree because you will never convince me that I can live a sinful life and as long as I believe I will be saved, when clear scripture tells us otherwise.

Well, wrong again. There is NO "clear Scripture" that supports anything you've posted.

If you are willing to take that risk, that is your free will.

Why do you judge me as if I'm out living like hell or something? Don't you know better than to NOT judge others?

I KNOW I'm saved because Jesus taught that those who believe (and I absolutely do believe in Christ alone for my salvation) possess eternal life. That means I RIGHT NOW possess eternal life.

And Jesus also taught that recipients of eternal life (they possess it) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

But you don't believe any of this. And I am using the very words of Jesus Christ as support for WHY I believe this.

Your opening on this thread that I'm responding to had this:
"because I believe in the teachings of the whole bible."

But you CAN'T believe the "whole Bible" when you don't believe the very words of Jesus.

We can be confident in our salvation when we are doing the will of God.

Apparently you don't even realize that this is merely expressing your confidence in yourself.

"when we are doing the will of God" is the phrase that points to your confidence in yourself.

My only and total confidence that I will go to heaven when I die is based solely on the work of Jesus Christ on my behalf.

Do you see the difference between our faiths? I have faith IN Christ, and you have faith in yourself AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING THE WILL OF GOD.

Well, I guess all I can say is, good luck. And I don't believe in any kind of luck.

Obeying God is not legalistic as you put it unless you want to call Jesus legalistic. John 15:10

God bless and take care.

When one's confidence is in their "doing the will of God" as you have just admitted, that is the very essence and definition of legalism.

Jesus taught salvation by grace through faith.

Please don't kid yourself.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Why are you so negative about the 2 verses I shared? They are CLEAR to those who have open eyes and ears. Are you seeing? Are you hearing? Maybe not. You will have to answer that.

But the truth has been fully explained. You can NO LONGER use your flawed understanding of John 10:27 to guide your flawed understanding of v.28.

When those blinders are removed and you are seeing correctly, you will understand that from the MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24.

And from THAT MOMENT that they possess eternal life, they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

That is what Jesus taught.

If you still don't agree, after having been corrected, then it appears that you are not open to correction at this point.

There is NOTHING in the Bible that says lifestyle is key to salvation, or that it even has a place in salvation.

Lifestyle is what comes, or ought to, after salvation, when the person IS already saved and secure.

Wow. I said all that, and this is your response??? Are you not interested in a real discussion? Or just giving your opinion and silly questions.

We know that King Saul WAS saved. In fact, Samuel came back from the dead and told him that he would join Samuel the next day. 1 Sam 28:19 - The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

When Saul died the next day, he joined Samuel in Paradise.


otoh, you have no evidence that Judas ever believed. In fact, Jesus made clear that Judas NEVER believed.

John 6-
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

In v.64 Jesus put together those who did not believe with "who" (the one who) would betray him.

Then, in v.70-71 Jesus makes that one of His 12 was a devil. Would Jesus EVER say that about one who had believed? You may opine so, but there's no evidence for it.


I have to disagree with you. I proved that your view of John 01:28 was based on very flawed premise about v.27. With correction of that flaw, your premise of v.28 disappears.

Yet, after I've gone all through that, you have nothing to say about it. Totally ignore it, in fact. That's not how to have a discussion. You can't ignore my points when I don't ignore yours.


This is an unbelievably biased comment. I have PROVEN that your view of 10:27 was WRONG WRONG WRONG. But you act as if I'm wrong without even trying to prove that I am wrong.


Those who have entrusted (believed on Him) their souls to Jesus Christ based on what He has done for them HAVE RECEIVED and POSSESS eternal life and SHALL NEVER PERISH.

The Bible SAYS this. But it is clear from your posts that you do not believe this.


So many people don't have any idea what Jesus was teaching here. The entire basis for the crowd's appeal for entering the kingdom was based on their works. Just like your ideas.

There is no mention of their faith at all. If they ever HAD believed in Him for salvation, He wouldn't have said "I never knew you".


Funny you say that when you never address my verses and explain how and why I cannot be correct. Like the other poster, you just claim I'm wrong without any evidence.

But, to address your silly question, of course saved people break God's laws. All the time. Are you that naive? King David raped and murdered. One Corinthian was sleeping with his step mother. Etc, etc. But you are in bondage to the erroneous thinking that lifestyle will get you either saved or condemned. Neither is correct. Both are a lie from Satan.


Well, wrong again. There is NO "clear Scripture" that supports anything you've posted.


Why do you judge me as if I'm out living like hell or something? Don't you know better than to NOT judge others?

I KNOW I'm saved because Jesus taught that those who believe (and I absolutely do believe in Christ alone for my salvation) possess eternal life. That means I RIGHT NOW possess eternal life.

And Jesus also taught that recipients of eternal life (they possess it) SHALL NEVER PERISH.

But you don't believe any of this. And I am using the very words of Jesus Christ as support for WHY I believe this.

Your opening on this thread that I'm responding to had this:
"because I believe in the teachings of the whole bible."

But you CAN'T believe the "whole Bible" when you don't believe the very words of Jesus.


Apparently you don't even realize that this is merely expressing your confidence in yourself.

"when we are doing the will of God" is the phrase that points to your confidence in yourself.

My only and total confidence that I will go to heaven when I die is based solely on the work of Jesus Christ on my behalf.

Do you see the difference between our faiths? I have faith IN Christ, and you have faith in yourself AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING THE WILL OF GOD.

Well, I guess all I can say is, good luck. And I don't believe in any kind of luck.


When one's confidence is in their "doing the will of God" as you have just admitted, that is the very essence and definition of legalism.

Jesus taught salvation by grace through faith.

Please don't kid yourself.

You seem to twist a lot of things that I have not said so it doesn't make for a pleasant discussion. For example, I have never said I do not have faith in Jesus, so if you can't quote me saying that, why would you make something like that up. My faith is 100% in Jesus so when He asks me to do something to show Him love, I have faith enough to believe what He is asking is for my own good.

Too many of these types of examples, less discussion on scripture so I am going to bow out of this discussion.

Take care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You seem to twist a lot of things that I have not said so it doesn't make for a pleasant discussion.

You're going to have to prove this false charge before I'll believe anything else you post.

How in the world can someone "twist a lot of things" that you 'have not said"???

People can and do twist things that people DO say. But "have not said"? Are you kidding?

For example, I have never said I do not have faith in Jesus, so if you can't quote me saying that, why would you make something like that up.

Did I say that? No, I didn't. Go back and read my post. I was comparing what your confidence was IN with what my confidence is IN.

My faith is 100% in Jesus so when He asks me to do something to show Him love, I have faith enough to believe what He is asking is for my own good.

This doesn't agree or even line up with what you said previously. You SAID your confidence in your salvation was by doing God's wil.

I even pointed out in detail how that works out as legalism.

Too many of these types of examples, less discussion on scripture so I am going to bow out of this discussion.

We all know this is just a cop-out excuse for leaving.

What I've learned from a whole lot of posting is that when a poster cannot refute another poster and can't defend their own position, they quit the discussion.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You're going to have to prove this false charge before I'll believe anything else you post.

No false charge which is why you did not quote me saying I don't have faith in Christ only myself. You said that not me and that is false.

Do you see the difference between our faiths? I have faith IN Christ, and you have faith in yourself AS LONG AS YOU ARE DOING THE WILL OF GOD.

I do find it odd that you think doing the will of God is having faith in yourself and not Christ, but you are free to believe what you want.
Take care.

 

[GDL]

Perhaps you misunderstood. I don't think we should ever stop doing good works or stop obeying. I don't think doing good works is what gets you into heaven. We are saved by grace though our faith, but someone who has true faith will be obeying. We don't obey to be saved; we obey because we love.

No misunderstanding, thanks.

I just find all the works, obedience, faith, love discussions to be hedging, so as not to pass the works fence that has been built by other than God. As you and many do, I try to learn from Him. I personally do not think He needs me to protect Him and what He says. IOW, He is always the Truth, no matter how much I or we get wrong. He establishes the truth about all topics, including "works."

As we both acknowledged one another's view on the importance of obedience, maybe I can approach this through the concept of obedience.

If one studies this Obedience to God topic, we find that most of the important terminology in the Word is connected to it. For example:

If you study Faith, you'll find that it is directly correlated to Obedience. LGW and I discussed this on a thread some time ago.

As you've noted with some of the verses you've used, Love is keeping God's commandments. Therefore, Love and Obedience (keeping His commandments) are correlated.

Faith and Works are clearly correlated per James, even though many wrongly pit him against Paul. If Faith is correlated to both Obedience and Works, then Works and Obedience are correlated.

This list of Biblical words correlated to Obedience is extensive.
​

Now, you said that we don't keep the commandments to get into Heaven. So, the way I read you, we don't Obey God to get into Heaven.

Yet, Faith and Obedience are directly correlated to one another in Scripture, so no Faith, no Obedience - no Obedience, no Faith, but unbelief. This is how the Word speaks.

No Faith, or no abiding Faith, then no Heaven (loss of Salvation as this thread discusses).

• No Faith, then no Obedience, no Works, no Love - then no Heaven.
• All these words and the spiritual functions and actions they represent are inextricably woven together. Ultimately, a cessation or non-existence of one is a cessation and non-existence of all. They are different words, and they can be discussed and defined individually, but they are in reality all interwoven.

Yes, we have been/stand saved by grace through Faith (The full scope of Salvation and how Eph2 applies is another discussion). Yet Faith Works. No Works - no Faith - no Salvation - no Heaven. God is preeminent in all. Apart from Him we have and can do nothing. Yet He has structured aspects of Salvation for us to work with Him. If we don't work to produce what the root feeds us to do, do we not ultimately get pulled from the root, wither and get thrown into the fire? So, back full circle to the Loss of Salvation topic.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No misunderstanding, thanks.

I just find all the works, obedience, faith, love discussions to be hedging, so as not to pass the works fence that has been built by other than God. As you and many do, I try to learn from Him. I personally do not think He needs me to protect Him and what He says. IOW, He is always the Truth, no matter how much I or we get wrong. He establishes the truth about all topics, including "works."

As we both acknowledged one another's view on the importance of obedience, maybe I can approach this through the concept of obedience.

If one studies this Obedience to God topic, we find that most of the important terminology in the Word is connected to it. For example:

If you study Faith, you'll find that it is directly correlated to Obedience. LGW and I discussed this on a thread some time ago.

As you've noted with some of the verses you've used, Love is keeping God's commandments. Therefore, Love and Obedience (keeping His commandments) are correlated.

Faith and Works are clearly correlated per James, even though many wrongly pit him against Paul. If Faith is correlated to both Obedience and Works, then Works and Obedience are correlated.

This list of Biblical words correlated to Obedience is extensive.
​

Now, you said that we don't keep the commandments to get into Heaven. So, the way I read you, we don't Obey God to get into Heaven.

Yet, Faith and Obedience are directly correlated to one another in Scripture, so no Faith, no Obedience - no Obedience, no Faith, but unbelief. This is how the Word speaks.

No Faith, or no abiding Faith, then no Heaven (loss of Salvation as this thread discusses).

• No Faith, then no Obedience, no Works, no Love - then no Heaven.
• All these words and the spiritual functions and actions they represent are inextricably woven together. Ultimately, a cessation or non-existence of one is a cessation and non-existence of all. They are different words, and they can be discussed and defined individually, but they are in reality all interwoven.

Yes, we have been/stand saved by grace through Faith (The full scope of Salvation and how Eph2 applies is another discussion). Yet Faith Works. No Works - no Faith - no Salvation - no Heaven. God is preeminent in all. Apart from Him we have and can do nothing. Yet He has structured aspects of Salvation for us to work with Him. If we don't work to produce what the root feeds us to do, do we not ultimately get pulled from the root, wither and get thrown into the fire? So, back full circle to the Loss of Salvation topic.

Thank you GDL. This is exactly what I believe the scriptures teach. Many are always seeking to separate love and law and faith and works none of which are separated from each other as love is expressed in obedience to Gods' law from a new heart that loves according to Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27). This is why Jesus says we need to be born again (John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9). According to the scriptures, if we have genuine faith in Gods' Word we will do what God's Word says (Romans 3:31). Obedience to God's Word therefore, is the fruit of genuine faith that works by a new heart that loves both God and man. Well said!

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No misunderstanding, thanks.

I just find all the works, obedience, faith, love discussions to be hedging, so as not to pass the works fence that has been built by other than God. As you and many do, I try to learn from Him. I personally do not think He needs me to protect Him and what He says. IOW, He is always the Truth, no matter how much I or we get wrong. He establishes the truth about all topics, including "works."

As we both acknowledged one another's view on the importance of obedience, maybe I can approach this through the concept of obedience.

If one studies this Obedience to God topic, we find that most of the important terminology in the Word is connected to it. For example:

If you study Faith, you'll find that it is directly correlated to Obedience. LGW and I discussed this on a thread some time ago.

As you've noted with some of the verses you've used, Love is keeping God's commandments. Therefore, Love and Obedience (keeping His commandments) are correlated.

Faith and Works are clearly correlated per James, even though many wrongly pit him against Paul. If Faith is correlated to both Obedience and Works, then Works and Obedience are correlated.

This list of Biblical words correlated to Obedience is extensive.
​

Now, you said that we don't keep the commandments to get into Heaven. So, the way I read you, we don't Obey God to get into Heaven.

Yet, Faith and Obedience are directly correlated to one another in Scripture, so no Faith, no Obedience - no Obedience, no Faith, but unbelief. This is how the Word speaks.

No Faith, or no abiding Faith, then no Heaven (loss of Salvation as this thread discusses).

• No Faith, then no Obedience, no Works, no Love - then no Heaven.
• All these words and the spiritual functions and actions they represent are inextricably woven together. Ultimately, a cessation or non-existence of one is a cessation and non-existence of all. They are different words, and they can be discussed and defined individually, but they are in reality all interwoven.

Yes, we have been/stand saved by grace through Faith (The full scope of Salvation and how Eph2 applies is another discussion). Yet Faith Works. No Works - no Faith - no Salvation - no Heaven. God is preeminent in all. Apart from Him we have and can do nothing. Yet He has structured aspects of Salvation for us to work with Him. If we don't work to produce what the root feeds us to do, do we not ultimately get pulled from the root, wither and get thrown into the fire? So, back full circle to the Loss of Salvation topic.

I agree with you. I don’t think I conveyed properly the meaning on what I meant previously so I have revised my post. Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works. I can see how my post previously was confusing and I hope this clarifies my position. Thanks for sharing and great post.

 

[GDL]

I agree with you. I don’t think I conveyed properly the meaning on what I meant previously so I have revised my post. Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief, love, faith and obedience which results in good works. I can see how my post previously was confusing and I hope this clarifies my position. Thanks for sharing and great post.

Thank you for your reply.

That's the beauty of how these words are actually so woven together. If I may:

"Doing good works for the purpose of getting in heaven will not necessarily get you into heaven without belief..."

At least in the main sense of "good works" in the NT, I don't think there are good works apart from belief (Biblical Faith). That's the point and reality of what this interwovenness results in.

Please pardon me for saying so, I mean no disrespect, but I still read your statement as hedging. What I'm saying since my first post to you, is that there is a precision in God's Word that we need to conform to if we are to think His thoughts and from there speak His words.

For example:

If I say, "we show our love for God when we obey Him" - it's not necessarily the same as saying, "our non-burdened obedience to God is our Love for God" (1 John 5:3).

• Depending on the thinking of the one saying the first statement, I am left wondering if this person thinks we can love God apart from obeying Him.
• And this goes into what Jesus spoke about regarding the Law - the Law works at the level of our thoughts, not just our actions.
• Being in Christ, having the gift of God's Spirit, having God's Law written on our hearts, is changing us to our core. He's dealing with the thoughts and intentions of our hearts, our will and desires. Hebrews speaks of our consciences now being perfected and the inability under the old priesthood and sacrificial system for this to be accomplished.
• I think all this is why John speaks of loving in truth in 1-3 John, which suggests that people can love not in truth, which in reality would not be Biblical Love.
• Unfortunately, people are good at acting. But not in God's eyes, and He doesn't like hypocrisy, so He's changing us in Christ, and He tells us with specificity that our non-burdened obedience to Him IS our love for Him - our actual willful obedience from our core with a new heart and His Spirit in us. I think this non-burdened concept is very important, because it speaks of this Love/Obedience being natural and effortless, because it's from who and what we are now in Christ.
• In essence He's telling us no more acting like you love Him, no more thinking we love Him just because we act outwardly in a certain way under Law that makes us, or others think we love God. At and from our core, as a new creation in Christ, our willful, natural, and knowledgeable obedience in Faith/Obedience and Love/Obedience to Him in truth, is what He's developing in us as He saves us.
• I also see this tied to what Jesus said in John 4, when 7 or 8 times He in a few verses spoke of worshipping God in Spirit and Truth - He spoke of that time being the beginning of the outworking of God's desire that true worshippers do this. The translational issue there is that "worship" does not convey the primary meaning of the word He used. It means to bow in obeisance [to a ruler - to God]. So, it's another discussion about our Obedience. Thus, it's another Faith and Love and Works [in Spirit and Truth] discussion put forth with great emphasis by Jesus Himself.

A lot of expressed thoughts just to say I like God's precise statement in 1 John 5:3, which I think is John's precise commentary stemming from walking with and following Jesus and hearing things like Jesus stated per John 14:24.

To be precise, at this point I don't think there is "getting into Heaven" apart from abiding Faith/Obedience/Love/Works for those of us who He does not take home soon after truly coming to Biblical Faith in Jesus Christ. I think this compares with the Loss of Salvation thoughts expressed by some here. What He does with perpetual infants in Christ, if there is such a thing, is another topic of discussion.