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Well then, you have a different point of view.Albion,
1. The status is the state of obedient living that you are being and doing.
2. Conditional means we have to cooperate by free will choice and works of obedience that are requirements of God.
The left the faith (actually departed the church of the faithful) because they had no root, and when troubles came they got blown away by the storm that beat upon their sand that they had built their faith upon..That statement appears on surface to be self-conflicted. Like saying "the fact that you pushed your maserati off a cliff after driving it for ten years --- shows me that you never owned a maserati".
You see that kind of statement a lot in Christian discussions - but it never really makes a lot of sense when you step back and look at it.
The problem is not what they call themselves the problem is your statement "leaving the faith" - if they "left" then by definition BEFORE they Left they had not LEFT. Which turns your statement into "they left the faith to prove that they never left the faith since they never had the faith to then leave" which again - does not make a lot of sense.
But given the POV that OSAS is not what we find in scripture THEN 'the fact that they LEFT the faith is PROOF that once having the faith one can then LEAVE" - the very core of the non-OSAS claim.
It is like saying "the fact that you gave that 100$ away to that other guy is the proof that you never had 100$"
1. Calvin had many things right and I don’t believe every Calvinist believes in a license to sin or that they are going to hell.
So I am not totally against Calvinism.
John said if we sin we have an advocate with the father who is the propitiation for our sins and also the worlds sins.
I believe we are overcomers and can live free from sin just as much as I believe I can sin.
Then Paul continues in that same message to say Do not let sin reign in your life and warns them that they are a servant of the master whom they obey indicating they can either choose to serve God or they can choose to sin and serve satan.
“Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
Romans 6:12-16 NASB
When the jailer asked Paul & Silas what he must do to be saved Paul told him to believe. If the jailer had no free will to choose then Paul’s response should’ve been don’t worry about if, if you are chosen by God you will be saved and if you are not then there’s nothing you can do to be saved.
Calvin had Some things right, he clearly missed the boat with his beliefs and understandings on Predestination and the Elect, placing them as the core of his Doctrine.
Everything else after that was hinged on those beliefs, the core of his Doctrine itself was skewed from the beginning.
Your comment about being a license to sin, does nothing but expose your ignorance on the subject of Sin and a Believers Freedom from Sin.
John also said.
1 Jn. 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn. 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1 Jn. 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
It is clear at this point, you don't know what you have been freed from, or how.
That must have happened by now. And if it is construed to mean that absolutely every living person on Earth must hear or hear and understand the gospel of the kingdom as precondition for the end to come then it will never happen as long as there are infants on the planet.THIS Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world and THEN will the end come
Maybe you should read that over and over until you understand just what it is you have read.
Because, what you have said it means isn't it.
Don't look now but, your ignorance is showing.
Do you really believe what you just said?....Really?
1. I never claim that the fact that the Bible refutes OSAS means the Bible is in favor of "works salvation"... did you add that?
2. "Forgiveness revoked" does show the saved and then lost condition since the lost are not forgiven... by definition.
as Paul reminds us "the GOSPEL was preached to Abraham" -- OT Gal 3:8 and "there is only ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-9
Heb 4 "the Gospel was preached to us just as it was to THEM also" Heb 4:2
The OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"
1 Pet 1:10-11 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
For they all 1 Cor 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
New Covenant in the OLD testament - Jer 31:31-33 - UNCHANGED in the NT Heb 8:6-12.
Jesus said "THIS Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world and THEN will the end come" Matt 24.
Jesus did not say "I am preaching the wrong Gospel - do not listen to what I teach about forgiveness".
By their fruits you shall know them. The claim is not "Saved by works" the claim is that having been saved by grace one can choose so as to lose salvation. You are talking about how to get saved - but OSAS is about the idea of staying saved and how that happens.
Hence all the warning in that quote above about losing salvation, forgiveness revoked..etc
1. "Ceased to believe" is not found in Romans 11.
2. Instead "impossible to be cut off" Paul says -- indeed possible so "fear".
"seems to suggest" is a great example of "inference alone"
-- when the explicit statement in the text is the opposite -- "to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
Rom 2 - it is the "goodness of God that leads you to repentance" -- to continue in His kindness is to continue in that spirit of repenting/turning from sin.
Like driving up hill until your car reaches the outer planets of our solar system.. is theoretical and not a practical discussion point.
We can see that you use the terms of "inference" to get to an extreme inference negating the direct statement in the text.
I believe a Christian can sin I believe they can live free from sin.
If you are, then you do not understand context.
When the jailer asked Paul & Silas what he must do to be saved Paul told him to believe. If the jailer had no free will to choose then Paul’s response should’ve been don’t worry about if, if you are chosen by God you will be saved and if you are not then there’s nothing you can do to be saved.
By all means please enlighten me on why Jesus and the apostles told people to believe if they haven’t the capability to choose whether or not they will believe. That is assuming you believe in the doctrines of total depravity and irresistible grace?
1. There were people in Paul’s day that thought about license to sin in Romans 6 when he said should we sin that grace may abound more.
I’ve talked to calvinists who didn’t mind sinning because they felt it would bring more glory to God.
1. The status is the state of obedient living that you are being and doing.
2. Conditional means we have to cooperate by free will choice and works of obedience that are requirements of God.
You don't understand what I said.
2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
So then, if neither of these beliefs (Free Will - Sola Scripuura) cannot be supported by the Bible (Sola Scriptura) then neither one of them can be a Doctrine, no matter how many people my believe in it, if it is not in the Bible it cannot be supported by it.
The Scripture determines the Criteria required for some belief to become a Doctrine, if there is no Scripture which can support such a belief, then said belief cannot become a Doctrine according to Scripture.
Read the verse above again, the Scripture given about said belief is the criteria which makes it profitable to become a Doctrine.
What is it you actually have free will to do?.....Choose what color socks to ware?
That is not what the ability to choose is all about, it's not a here and now Temporal, Physical ability to choose, sure you have the ability to Choose, choose all day long, Choose whatever you want to eat, where to go, how long to stay there, that Free Will is only found in DOMINION, do you understand what that is?
There and only there is your so called Free Will ever able to be applied.
Do you have a specific example of what your speaking about, both Jesus and the Apostles one for each?
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