Why pray?

[soccersw2]

This is a question that I'm sure has been covered on this forum before, but because I have yet to find a thread on this topic I will restate the assertion.

Although God commands people again and again to pray in the Bible, what is the true effectiveness of prayer concerning health, needs, etc? If God is all-knowing and already knows each and everyone's path in life, how does prayer effect outcomes that he already knows are going to happen?

God has a plan for everyone, so are we praying because we don't trust in God's plan? Does God need our opinions and input for his decisions? Are we saying that his plan isn't good enough?

Does one person have the ability to change God's mind? Do hundreds of people praying for the same thing have the ability to change God's mind? Thousands? If you believe prayer is effective, does it matter how many people are praying? If not, what is the point?

I, personally, would think that prayer is ineffective. Any views are much appreciated. Thanks!

 

[elopez]

I would be interested in taking the affirmative, that prayer is effective despite foreknowledge.

 

[Popsy]

What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to[bless and do not curse]this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.

If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing[bless and do not curse]will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things[bless and do not curse]will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.

In Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."

The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"I tell you the truth,[bless and do not curse]anyone[bless and do not curse]who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for[bless and do not curse]anything[bless and do not curse]in my name, and[bless and do not curse]I will do it." [refLook at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for[bless and do not curse]anything[bless and do not curse]in my name, and[bless and do not curse]I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word[bless and do not curse]anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again...

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.All things are possible to him who believes.For with God nothing will be impossible.Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.

And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect,[bless and do not curse]sinless[bless and do not curse]being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying.[bless and do not curse]

Above is from a website. Thought it would be an appropriate response here.

 

[Popsy]

If you would like additional proof, gather a million faithful believers together into a giant prayer circle. Have them all pray together in Jesus' name that God cures every case of cancer on the planet tomorrow. Pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Now, we certainly have two or more people gathered together, and they have asked in Jesus' name, and we have not one but a million faithful believers who, by definition, have faith and believe. We have fulfilled every one of Jesus' requirements.

Will Jesus answer the prayer now? Of course not. Your prayer will go unanswered, in direct defiance to Jesus' promises in the Bible. In fact, if you pray for[bless and do not curse]anything[bless and do not curse]that is impossible, your prayer will[bless and do not curse]always go unanswered.

If you are an intelligent, rational human being, all of the examples mentioned above show you that the God of the Bible is imaginary. The Bible clearly promises that God answers prayers. Yet when we pray, nothing happens (for a complete discussion proving that nothing happens, please see[bless and do not curse]this page). What Jesus says about prayer in the Bible clearly is not true. Therefore, one of two things must be happening:

God is imaginary.God does exist, but he never answers prayers. Unfortunately, God is defined by the Bible to be a prayer-answering being. The contradiction between the reality of God and the definition of God proves that God is imaginary.

In fact, we have ample scientific evidence to demonstrate that the belief in prayer is nothing but pure superstition.

 

[Greenest Desert]

Good question prayer in the original Greek translates to moving toward or becoming like, so we should pray to become like God. However somewhere in the book it talks about you can ask God to do anything and he will if you are doing it with a pure heart, however it is not pure to want to do something to get a sign or wander. I think we should always ask God to make us follow his plan frist. I pray a lot that people I love may be convicted and saved. Some of my prayers get answered. Now he may have done that if I didn't pray, but he may have done it becuse I prayed for his will. God is a paradox, it's hard to understand that. He may have done it tommarow but he made me pray for it today so that it would happen.
This leads into the question of choice and it gets really hazy there. God already planned everything and lives through everything to make his will manifest. At the same time he is completely separate and we make choise. You can back up both with scripture. So I think if you like tp pray it's good to do I like it, I like to open up to God and just talk to him ask for him to save some more people better learn to do his will. I have had many unanswered prayers of course, I was likely praying for his will anyway. So if your a member of Christ your a member of God and have his power, and though this you do his will at the same time you might be making his will through your purity.
Just pray if you want to. If you don't believe it changes anything then don't worry about it. Your somewhat right eather way.

 

[oi_antz]

What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to[bless and do not curse]this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.

If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing[bless and do not curse]will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things[bless and do not curse]will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.

In Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."

The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"I tell you the truth,[bless and do not curse]anyone[bless and do not curse]who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for[bless and do not curse]anything[bless and do not curse]in my name, and[bless and do not curse]I will do it." [refLook at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for[bless and do not curse]anything[bless and do not curse]in my name, and[bless and do not curse]I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word[bless and do not curse]anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again...

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.All things are possible to him who believes.For with God nothing will be impossible.Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.

And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect,[bless and do not curse]sinless[bless and do not curse]being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying.[bless and do not curse]

Above is from a website. Thought it would be an appropriate response here.

Hi Popsy, I noticed you from your other thread. I think our greatest problem in working miracles is having enough faith to be certain that what we believe will happen. Do you remember when St Peter walked on water? Do you remember when he condemned Ananias and Sapphira? What was the difference?

 

[KingdomCitizenship]

Why Pray? Is that a serious question when Christ himself said, "and when you pray..."

Christ's words not only direct us to pray, but tell us HOW to pray.

Only a spiritual myopathy based in theology would hold prayer ransom. The bible is full of stories of prayer.

Theology makes God into a monolith: immovable, unapproachable, and impersonal.
Fleshly thinking makes mankind think that God should be wrapped up on what raises our blood pressure. The combination of the two then places doubt about prayer because we've got it all wrong.

We can and should come to God with the small things (what raises our blood pressure). But the world isn't about us. It is about the grand scheme of what God is doing.

Our prayer ought to be about fitting into God's plan and how we can be part of it. God is NOT a cosmic coke machine, wherein if we hit all the right buttons, God's going to give us a Pink Caddy or fix our hangnail.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Admin Hat...

Thread moved from Formal Debate Proposals.

Mark
CF Admin

 

[seekingsolace]

Prayer is integral to a firm foundation in faith and trust in God, persisting in patience.

In both testaments prayer is viewed as a form of 'sacrifice', the power and results of prayer are well taught in Scriptures. Prayer has been used for deliverance from lack of wisdom, evil, temptation, sickness and even death among others, as well as being a means to spiritual maturity.

Philippians 4:6 - "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God"

Supplication is making your requests known to God, so you should be praying with your specific requests without the assumption that your prayers will be answered how you want it, always be thankful that God answers your prayers how He chooses. Nobody can say they understand all of God's will and divine purpose, Job illustrates this well.

I Thessalonians 5:17
"Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you."

Proverbs 15:8
"The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
But the prayer of the upright is His delight.
The way of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
But He loves him who follows righteousness."

Matthew.16:4
"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed."

God knows what you want before you ask, but if you do not ask, you shall not receive.

The Bible clearly tells you that a prayer for signs will not be answered, yet you expect the entire world to be healed when you have no idea of Gods purpose?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I pray for the same reason I drink water and breathe air.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[aiki]

Although God commands people again and again to pray in the Bible, what is the true effectiveness of prayer concerning health, needs, etc? If God is all-knowing and already knows each and everyone's path in life, how does prayer effect outcomes that he already knows are going to happen?

Prayer is not for God's sake but for ours.

God has a plan for everyone, so are we praying because we don't trust in God's plan? Does God need our opinions and input for his decisions? Are we saying that his plan isn't good enough?

No. We are acknowledging in prayer our need of God and His sovereignty over all things. Prayer is how we communicate with our Maker and sustain a relationship with Him.

Does one person have the ability to change God's mind? Do hundreds of people praying for the same thing have the ability to change God's mind? Thousands? If you believe prayer is effective, does it matter how many people are praying? If not, what is the point?

God does not "change His mind." Not as we typically understand the phrase, anyway.

God's foreknowledge of all things does not mean He has ordained all that has and will happen.

I, personally, would think that prayer is ineffective. Any views are much appreciated. Thanks!

Well, I have found prayer to be just what its supposed to be and God to be faithful in answering my prayers and keeping His promises.

Selah.

 

[Lukaris]

In Matthew 6, the Lord calls us to be charitable and pray. Without prayer, our works may become haphazard and not always good. A person might do good things in a day like donate blood and give to a food pantry but also have road rage. Our conscience is often stressed in daily living. We need the Lord's prayer to ask forgiveness of our sins, to forgive others, to pray for others etc. (this can be difficult in daily life) to live by faith. It is by grace, by faith we are saved not by works but we are called to do good works to live by faith (see Ephesians 2:8-10).

While the Lord has foreknowledge of everything, we exist in time and must take care to make the right decisions in living life.

 

[drich0150]

If you look at the model prayer jesus gives us in luke 11 you will note that prayer is not about changing the mind of God/Christian wishing ceremony. It's about changing us, to change our minds to fit what it is God wants for us

 

[wakemantk]

@ Soccersw2

I would ask you what you understand the purpose of prayer is supposed to be. Prayer is not a magical vending machine into which you feed your wishlist, followed by a pretty please- and then wait for goodies to fall from the sky.

You'll notice over and over again that the Bible doesn't tell us how to get what we want, but it tells us the kind of person that we ought to strive to be.

Prayer thusly understood is communion with God, in some cases not unlike Buddhist meditation (a distinction that is often lost because many westerners don't associate meditative prayer with Christianity, but only petitionary prayer.)