Why pray to the dead?

[Hoonbaba]

I think we're talk'n about two different things here:

the dead as in those in purgatory (honestly I still dont' fully understand this so I don't agree with the doctrine of purgatory?)

and the 'dead' as in those who are living in Christ (Luke 20:38).

-Jason

 

[KC Catholic]

Originally posted by Apologist


That's not much of a comparison Wolseley.
Having fellow believers pray for you is not the same as praying to the dead if that's what you are implying.
Besides that the dead do not know what's going on here on earth as I believe the Spirit is saying through Solomon in Ecclesiastes 9:5.

God Bless

Ok, first, this is not a debate forum. Discussion, Q&A, fellowship YES - debate NO.

Secondly, Apologist - ONE verse in the OT is enough to refute something completely? Please check your Christian Apologetics 101 book - but one verse a convincing argument does not make.

Let's look at the scripture leading up to you quick answer:

Ecclesiastes 9: 1-7
1 All this I have kept in mind and recognized: the just, the wise, and their deeds are in the hand of God. Love from hatred man cannot tell; both appear equally vain,
2
in that there is the same lot for all, for the just and the wicked, for the good and the bad, for the clean and the unclean, for him who offers sacrifice and him who does not. As it is for the good man, so it is for the sinner; as it is for him who swears rashly, so it is for him who fears an oath.
3
Among all the things that happen under the sun, this is the worst, that things turn out the same for all. Hence the minds of men are filled with evil, and madness is in their hearts during life; and afterward they go to the dead.
4
Indeed, for any among the living there is hope; a live dog is better off than a dead lion.
5
For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost.
6 For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun.
7
Go, eat your bread with joy and drink your wine with a merry heart, because it is now that God favors your works.

So, the verse is not saying that the "dead" cannot hear our prayers in heaven, but rather that once you are dead your time is complete and you can no longer do God's work on earth.

You have one life and one chance to do the Lords will before your dead. Those who are alive now have the opportunity to turn from evil and live a life in Gods graces.

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by KC Catholic
You have one life and one chance to do the Lords will before your dead. Those who are alive now have the opportunity to turn from evil and live a life in Gods graces.

Is that to say that believers in heaven aren't doing God's will? (namely, praising God?) Or are you refering to our earthly lives

God bless!

-Jason

 

[KC Catholic]

Our earthly lives.

 

[2002 Christian]

Asking the dead to intercede for you is like asking the dust of the ground to intercede for you. The dead are dead. Unless God raised them in a resurrection or they were taken to heaven without dying, all are dead in their graves waiting for Jesus to do as He said in John 14:

2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[kern]

Originally posted by 2002 Christian

2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

What a coincidence, this was the Gospel reading as mass today. However, he's talking to living people; at their death he will come and take them to their room. At least that's how I see it.

-Chris

 

[Wolseley]

Asking the dead to intercede for you is like asking the dust of the ground to intercede for you. The dead are dead. Unless God raised them in a resurrection or they were taken to heaven without dying, all are dead in their graves waiting for Jesus

Which is simply nothing more than your opinion, your personal interpretation of Scripture.

You will, of course, indulge us poor, lost, deluded Papists if we do not agree with you.

 

[VOW]

Originally posted by 2002 Christian
Asking the dead to intercede for you is like asking the dust of the ground to intercede for you. The dead are dead.

How sad.

If you have never been with a dying person, I can see how you might feel that way. After sitting with someone who is in the process of dying, though, you can FEEL the change in the person. Often he or she will look beyond you, and reach out to "something" that isn't there. It's obvious that there is a transition going on, the dying person is leaving this world.

And in leaving, he or she is not going to "dust in the ground," but somePLACE, where existence continues.

THAT is the Christian faith!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Hoonbaba]

Originally posted by VOW


How sad.

If you have never been with a dying person, I can see how you might feel that way. After sitting with someone who is in the process of dying, though, you can FEEL the change in the person. Often he or she will look beyond you, and reach out to "something" that isn't there. It's obvious that there is a transition going on, the dying person is leaving this world.

And in leaving, he or she is not going to "dust in the ground," but somePLACE, where existence continues.

THAT is the Christian faith!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

I personally think that place has something to do with Ecc 12:7:

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

=)

-Jason

 

[Annabel Lee]

On Christmas Eve, five years ago, my grandmother had begun the long process of dying.It was a horrible situation, because my uncle had insisted on putting her on a feeding tube. She had always made it clear not to use any extraordinary measures to prolong her life. But he was next of kin and I was helpless.

That night after wrapping gifts ,I stood in the dark quiet kitchen and started praying. I directed the prayer towards my mother who had died suddenly a few months before. I asked her for help. At the time I wasn't a Christian and probably wouldn't have called what I was doing "praying". I was begging for help for a situation that was out of control.

My grandmother died a few hours later on Christmas Day. My mother, in some way, intervened for me and God heard my prayers.

Annabel

 

[VOW]

To Annabel:

Look for a book called "Final Gifts." It was written by two hospice nurses, from their collected stories of helping the dying and their families. It's amazing, no matter what the faith (or even LACK of faith) of their clients, they ALL experienced the same sequence of events. The book is incredible, and filled with love.

My sister-in-law had lost her father to cancer, and her mother was virtually bedridden. She was in the hospital for one ailment or another, and all of the nurses on the floor were very fond of her. My sister-in-law got an urgent call, and when she arrived, everyone was really upset. The charge nurse had gone to check on her mother, and found the woman collapsed on the floor, dead. Nobody could figure out HOW she got out of bed, or even gotten as far from the bed as she did. And of course, people were beside themselves thinking the poor woman had desperately needed something, and died alone.

The doctor in charge of her care was more upset than anyone. She was referred to the book, "Final Gifts," and after she read it, highly recommended it to my sister-in-law.

People who are dying, and the process is a long one (as opposed to someone suffering an immediate death in an accident) go through many stages. After they accept the process, they begin to "detach" themselves from this life. Some have even tried to describe it to the nurses who wrote the book, and they have said it is simply too wonderful, too incredible for words. They often speak of seeing others who have passed away, who are apparently there to "escort" them to the next world.

After reading the book, we all understood exactly what had happened. My sister-in-law's father had come for her mother, and her mother got out of bed to meet him.

My mother passed away a few years after that, and I re-read the book, and bought copies for my sister and my father, and my two aunts. Losing my mother was traumatic; I'm still grieving in many ways. But after reading that book, I understand better what she was going through. The book gave all of us a lot of comfort. I've recommended, and even bought additional copies for friends.

Annabel, I urge you to find that book for yourself. I'm POSITIVE, from reading it, that indeed your mother did hear you, and she went to your grandmother to take her home.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

 

[Annabel Lee]

Thank you so much Vow.
Peace,
Annabel

 

[niwde]

dear people
i wonder whether we r smart or pure stupid
some of the things certain people say doesn't make sense
like 2002 christian
if u say praying to the dead as worshipping them i will not agree
but as begging them to pray or intercede for us i will agree but u said that it is like asking dust to pray or intercede for u
certainly i am not consent with the body inside the box but the soul
u said that the soul is waiting for jesus to be raised
then let us just say that im dead
where is my soul in the grave or just linger around the streets
the body is dead and i know
the soul is not
the soul will reunite 1 day and that is the last day
the point that i am trying to make is that what u r saying do not make sense
the soul is not dead so what is the problem in asking them to intercede for us isn't this logical
u have quoted that jesus went and perpare a room for us in the his father's house
so went he comes and take me
i do not think that i will have any worries
i am in eternal happiness
my duty now is to try and pray for those who r still on earth
is this wrong
what u have said go against each other
i am not in a angry mode when i typed this post just happy to share my views
no offence buddy

to hoonbaba
i don think purgatory is a doctrine
it is a place that exsist

 

[2002 Christian]

Originally posted by Hoonbaba


I personally think that place has something to do with Ecc 12:7:

and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

=)

-Jason

The spirit that returns is the same unconscious spirit that was sent from God when He created the person.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead...

Psalm 104:30
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created.

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (spirit) of life; and man became a living being (soul).

Psalm 146:4
His breath (spirit) goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Genesis 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.

 

[KC Catholic]

2002 Christian

Again, this is NOT a debate forum to challenge Catholics on their beliefs. You are free to disagree with what we may believe, but this forum is for discussion only.

 

[onesheep]

Annabel, my grandfather was diagnosed with Alzheimers about 2 years after my grandmother died. Alzheimers is a horrific, debilitating disease that strips a person of their minds. My grandfather was in a nursing home for several years before his body also began to deteriorate. It was incredibly disturbing to watch. Towards the end he was in a hospice. He was miserable and I knew he was very ready to go. We prayed for him constantly.

One day I was heading up to see him at the hospice. Twenty minutes before I got there I felt this great joy and I could feel my grandparents with me. I knew he'd passed on and my grandmother had been there with him. He went peacefully and, I believe, gladly.

Christ promised us eternal life and I believe Him.

 

[LilyLamb]

I can see where some confusion might come in for Protestants in understanding that prayers are not said to, but asked of, saints ... the catalog I'm looking at for prayer cards has the following available ...

Prayer to Saint Paul
Prayer to Saint Margaret Mary
Prayer to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Prayer to Saint Clare of Assisi
Prayer to Saint Francis of Assisi

etc etc

Maybe if the church would word it differently????

 

[MissytheButterfly]

Points taken, but do Catholics believe these people are still alive ? That's where I am confused...I understand praying to Jesus..but I thought some of the others died...?

 

[onesheep]

Originally posted by MissytheButterfly
Points taken, but do Catholics believe these people are still alive ? That's where I am confused...I understand praying to Jesus..but I thought some of the others died...?

Christ promised that those who believed in Him would not die. Those in Christ are alive. We believers have eternal life. We will never die.

 

[niwde]

the body is 100000000000000% dead but the soul is not
it is not wrong to ask them to intercede for us as they have finish their battle here on earth
they r in another place with christ
isn't it better to as them to talk to jesus for example
i want to do well in my exams
it would be better to ask a dead fellow's soul(the same old guy who walked the earth)to ask jesus face to face for my intentions
i am not saying praying doesn't work
but if u ask those fellows next to jesus to ask him
it is like mutiple mouths and noises pestering jesus to grant them
which means more prayers or said
isn't this good for us
it is a gain rather than a lost